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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

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On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 3:17 AM, Backbreaker said:

@Andrew G I love the idea of your MSU list. I don't play against skaven so I would like to the brooch. Because of that, I'm thinking of keeping only one Fungoïd and taking a Warboss to have a Waaagh backup and a wound reroll. I end up at 1950 points so I start with 1CP and triumph (maybe/probably).

Do you think it's enough CP generation ?

 

With Aetherquartz you're generating around 12 CP over the course of the game w/ this list. My list is also generating about ~12CP w/o Broach, but it's more front-loaded.

So, initial impression is you'll be fine w/ that amount of CP regen but you're going to be at a disadvantage against alpha-strikes or in any scenario where you need to Waaagh! dump on the first turn.  By turn 2 though it's basically evened out (6cp on average going into T2 for my list, you'll have 4 on average w/ Broach … so about 5.5ish).

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9 hours ago, Arkahn said:

How ? Only one unit or the Maw Krusha wipe them before they can fight back ?

Smashing and Bashing, our allegiance ability, that is how.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/17/2019 at 5:22 PM, Arkahn said:

How ? Only one unit or the Maw Krusha wipe them before they can fight back ?

Ironjawz allegiance is smashing and bashing. When a friendly ironjawz unit destroys another unit in the combat phase you can immediately activate another ironjawz unit to fight. You basically chain your entire army before the opponent gets to fight.

On that note, I had a thought for how you could potentially run a semi-competitive ironjawz list. (Well actually 2 ways but skragrott+Scrapscuttle is more of a soft counter than anything else)

You take doppelganger on the Mawkrusha, then try to initiate the brawl to occur on your turn with the waaagh! Bomb.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Prismatic Palisade (30)

Total: 1790 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 6
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110
 

Fairly classic idea which is slightly more orientated to deal with the modern meta of fights at start of combat phase. Obviously an alphastrike list but ironically the new hotness has forced out our traditional counters.

The hilarious thing is that it should dump on FEC/slannesh/khorne really well...

Edited by Malakree

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Just checked new spell from soul war, nothing much noteworthy but I tough maybe soulscream bridge could be usefull to catapult Ardboys/Brutes 18'' you could turn that in an effective and cheap alphastrike

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1 hour ago, broche said:

Just checked new spell from soul war, nothing much noteworthy but I tough maybe soulscream bridge could be usefull to catapult Ardboys/Brutes 18'' you could turn that in an effective and cheap alphastrike

Maybe could get a big unit of ardboz to die early in an ardfist to benefit from the recursion.

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On 5/21/2019 at 12:52 AM, Malakree said:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Prismatic Palisade (30)

Total: 1790 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 6
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110

While I like the sheer brutality of the list right from the very beginning how do you secure objectives with this list as it looks like just about everything fights? 

Also, how would you deal with screens

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Posted (edited)

@Andrew G

Ran the list again, this time with an orruk warboss with banner in place of the 4th grunta.  This time on Border War on Ulgu vs Tzeentch Multitudinous Host.

 

Spoiler
Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies

Battleline

Units
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 320 / 400
Wounds: 159

 

 

I went 1st, got one rampaging destroyers roll and moved up a unit of gruntas, which I was able to charge in with.  The rest of everything ran up.  I got 2 command points from the 2 fungoids, for a total of 5 first round. 

He went, moved up, shot, killed those gruntas.

2nd turn I got the roll,  1 of 2 extra command points, for a total of 7.   I waagh'd 5 times, using the 2 others for rerolls on charges.  Wiped out a unit of pinks, blues, and 2 brimstone. 

His turn he brought a bunch of units it but it wasn't enough to move me off the objectives.  We called it after that on points.

 

Starting with 3 command points on round 1, with a possibility of 2 more from the fungoids is bananas. I liked the addition of the orruk warboss for redundancy and reroll. 

Edited by Superninja
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So with GHB19 around the corner

What changes (if any) for Ironjawz do we hope to see?

Point changes? Different artefacts or traits? Developed allegiance abilities? 

Lets get some wishlisting happening 😁

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Superninja said:

Ran the list again, this time with an orruk warboss with banner in place of the 4th grunta. 

Starting with 3 command points on round 1, with a possibility of 2 more from the fungoids is bananas. I liked the addition of the orruk warboss for redundancy and reroll. 

I think "orruk warboss with banner" is part of Legends now and is not elegible for matched play. Am I wrong?

This is from https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/  and the orruk warboss is inside the "Orcs and Goblin" department... :(

The rules presented here are designed to be definitive, and will only be updated when we change the core mechanics of Warhammer Age of Sigmar. This means that Legends units are not designed for matched play

 

Edited by Hobbycave

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Posted (edited)

Thats fine, adding another unit of gruntas back in is just fine

I think you may be wrong though, it is the 'orc warboss' who is legend.  The orruk warboss has been removed from sale, but rules are still available.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-orruk-warboss-en.pdf

Edited by Superninja

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7 hours ago, Lanoss said:

So with GHB19 around the corner

What changes (if any) for Ironjawz do we hope to see?

Point changes? Different artefacts or traits? Developed allegiance abilities? 

Lets get some wishlisting happening 😁

I'm pretty skeptic, because they would have to do a lot to actually help the army. But an army wide 20-25 % point drop would be a start. F.A.Q some of the warscrolls, batallions and abilities..

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I expect a 20-40 drop on the Maw Krusha, and hoping for massive cost reduction of brutefist (like 90-100 pts).

Problem with Ironjaw isn't that they are that bad is that there is only 1 viable srategy (waaagh bomb) and I don't think it will change until next battletome (hopefully this year)

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2 hours ago, Superninja said:

Thats fine, adding another unit of gruntas back in is just fine

I think you may be wrong though, it is the 'orc warboss' who is legend.  The orruk warboss has been removed from sale, but rules are still available.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos-warscroll-orruk-warboss-en.pdf

Thanks for the clarification!! :). 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Superninja said:

@Andrew G

Ran the list again, this time with an orruk warboss with banner in place of the 4th grunta.  This time on Border War on Ulgu vs Tzeentch Multitudinous Host.

 

  Reveal hidden contents
Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies

Battleline

Units
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 320 / 400
Wounds: 159

 

 

I went 1st, got one rampaging destroyers roll and moved up a unit of gruntas, which I was able to charge in with.  The rest of everything ran up.  I got 2 command points from the 2 fungoids, for a total of 5 first round. 

He went, moved up, shot, killed those gruntas.

2nd turn I got the roll,  1 of 2 extra command points, for a total of 7.   I waagh'd 5 times, using the 2 others for rerolls on charges.  Wiped out a unit of pinks, blues, and 2 brimstone. 

His turn he brought a bunch of units it but it wasn't enough to move me off the objectives.  We called it after that on points.

 

Starting with 3 command points on round 1, with a possibility of 2 more from the fungoids is bananas. I liked the addition of the orruk warboss for redundancy and reroll. 

Good to hear. To answer your previous question, I usually run my boyz with 10 2-handers. I used shields in the past with my bigger units assuming there would be a lot of boyz out of attack range anyway, so might as well add a little more survivability to the unit if I'm already sacrificing attacks.  That said, I like having the potential to turn anyone of the 10 'ardboyz units into a hammer on the Waaagh! dump turn and the two-handers facilitate that better IMO.

I think banner boss is a good add to the army, rerolling 1's to wound increases damage output more than you would expect, especially on the bomb turn.  Obviously you're sacrificing some defense/screening/ etc. but I definitely see him being worth it from an offensive and Mawkrusher redundancy perspective.

Adding the banner boss also allows some more flexibility with your artifact slot and how you use the MK as well. You could probably get away with throwing aetherquartz on the MK for example, or putting doppleganger on the MK and using him more offensively early in the game. That said, the artifact slot is really dependent on your meta. If you're facing FEC/Slaneesh constantly, you're gaining a lot more value from doppleganger. Aetherquartz in a vacuum is the obviously still the best choice, but there are better choices in specific match-ups/metas. 

 

Edited by Andrew G

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1 hour ago, broche said:

I expect a 20-40 drop on the Maw Krusha, and hoping for massive cost reduction of brutefist (like 90-100 pts).

Problem with Ironjaw isn't that they are that bad is that there is only 1 viable srategy (waaagh bomb) and I don't think it will change until next battletome (hopefully this year)

They won't do warscroll changes with a new battletome on the way.

The Mawkrusha needs a 120+ points drop in the current environment. The same is true for all ironjawz units, lack of move/wounds/MW save is crippling.

Compare brutes at 180 to troggs at 160. Then realise that troggs are on the cusp of being overcosted themselves.

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I'd add that Brutes need a bit of a bravery bump, or some way to increase their own  (something like : for every two models killed, extra bravery- spit balling)

 

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What have been people's experiences with running standard Orruks along side their IronJawz?
Figure the massed basic shield boyz could help with objectives, screening, and waaagh (FoG numbers)

Similar screening thoughts on the Boar Boyz, but they seem lack luster next to gruntas. For 60 points less, less save, worse attacks. But, cheap (ish) screeners?

Any thoughts on running the Warboss on wyvern in tandem with the MawCrusha?

 

Only thoughts are the Orruks (basic) may go on the dustbin of 'legendary/ retired' soon.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Blackspine said:

What have been people's experiences with running standard Orruks along side their IronJawz?
Figure the massed basic shield boyz could help with objectives, screening, and waaagh (FoG numbers)

Similar screening thoughts on the Boar Boyz, but they seem lack luster next to gruntas. For 60 points less, less save, worse attacks. But, cheap (ish) screeners?

Any thoughts on running the Warboss on wyvern in tandem with the MawCrusha?

 

Only thoughts are the Orruks (basic) may go on the dustbin of 'legendary/ retired' soon.

As someone who owns close to 15k points of old O&G models fully painted ( I wish I was exaggerating), I've tried to mixed list work quite a few times. Unfortunately, 95% of the old range isn't competitively priced and the way IJ Waaagh works encourages you to bring more IJ units rather than bring in other factions. To justify taking a non-IJ unit, it needs to add something extremely valuable to the army (fungoid/ banner boss are the only real examples I can think of). It just makes more sense to lean into our armies only strength (Waaagh! bomb) than to try fit in over-costed pieces that don't synergize with the rest of the army.

In the beginning of this GHB, a lot of people including myself were running lists where all the CP was funneled through the banner bosses and wyvern boss. I played probably half a dozen games using that concept in mixed Orruk/IJ lists and came to the conclusion I was just playing a worse version of a standard IJ list by the end.

Edited by Andrew G
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16 hours ago, Thenord said:

I'm pretty skeptic, because they would have to do a lot to actually help the army. But an army wide 20-25 % point drop would be a start. F.A.Q some of the warscrolls, batallions and abilities..

Points change will help,  my ironjawz in the gaming group just have a hard time winning against these newer armies.  

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Last weekend I played strong Brew City Brawl.

First game against tzeentch on better part of valor.  Shot the maw krusha in and killed 23/30 tzaangors turn one.  He didn't have enough killy stuff to stop the rest of my army slowly get into position and win by a few points.  He stole foot of gork and stomped three of my units at the end.  Major victory to me.

Second game against stormcast gavbomb on border wars.  I gave him first turn.  He came down and charged me instead of going on an objective.  He put the stardrake on the left objective.  I survived the gavbomb by charging him in his charge phase, holding up one of the units of evocators he dropped.  Ironsunz kunnin' plan helped me survive and ignax scales helped me survive and I deleted everything from the gavbomb next turn, walked onto objectives, and won a grind against the stardrake eventually.

Third game was against skaven on knife to the heart.  Lost this on strange rules.  I charged everything first turn.  Maw krusha was only out of position, and rolled 2 sixes on 3 waaghs.  Only one bonus attack came out!  I killed 20 rats, thanquol, grey seer, 2 warp lightning cannons, and started to make my way towards his warpseer and objective with only 40 more clanrats on them and none of my models lost yet.  He skitterleaps to my objective with the warpseer, gets good spells to kill both casters that are holding it, and wins because he controls both objectives at the bottom of turn 2.  So I win priority, ready to wipe the rest of the army, turn around, and go get the warpseer, but because you see who controls objectives at the end of every player turn, he already has it, so he immediately wins as soon as turn 3 begins.  Not much I can do to stop this without a teleport of my own.

Fourth game was against gristlegore on places of power.  I lost by one point.  Gave him first turn, he moved up, and I killed everything in his army except the two kings on terrorgheists.  I couldn't get to the general without letting it attack first.  Then they kill everything in my army.  It's dumb because you can't charge them.  We had ten brutes waiting to kill the big dude, but we never get to attack.  The best way to change this rule would be to have the ghoul king attack at the end of the charge phase instead of beginning of combat.  This way, you can charge it.  So the best way to win against gristlegore is to smash and bash off a unit of chaff in front of the general, and then pile in with the brutes or maw krusha once the chaff is gone.  This way it can't attack you.  I would like another shot at the list, and on another battle plan I believe I can win this same game easily, as all his models except the two unkillable heroes were dead!

Fifth game was against fyreslayers with a big chunk of berserkers on blood and glory.  The story here is the same.  I killed everything and he popped up the berserkers and started slowly killing me.  They strung between two objectives so I could never even get the minor.  It's really hard to beat a huge tanky block that does'nt start on the board with Ironjawz, especially on a map like this with lacking bodies.

I think if Ironjawz get a big of power and the waaagh becomes a little easier to deal with they can be solid.  

Foot of gork did 20 wounds to my own units this tournament.

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Some decent results against what sounds like really tough matchups. What was the list you ran to the event?

I've been um'ing and ah'ing about what sort of list to run. The battalions give some good rules to boost things like bravery, speed and surviability T1 but at the cost of a couple of units.

Seeing what a lot of people are playing against, I find myself asking the question "should we just try and max out on the body count to get the most from Waagh whilst also maintaining board position and chaffing up mega heroes?"

A decent mix of Gruntas and Ard Boys backed up by the "I won't fight until it's completely neccasary to kill that thing" Krusha gives you those things. Sure, you'll never get the choice of first turn but you have board coverage with a decent screen and lots of redundancy for the counter punch.

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I developed a nifty online tool last week that might help you guys with your battles in the future. As a Seraphon player, I was always stressed that I was forgetting to do things in the right phase.

So, I developed AoS Reminders. It has Seraphon, Gloomspite Gitz, Sylvaneth, Idoneth Deepkin, and most importantly, Ironjawz!!!!

Check it out here -> https://daviseford.com/aos-reminders/

Basically, you add your units, battalions, command traits, realmscape features, and artifacts, and you will get an ordered list of what abilities to use during which phase. I know how many rules you guys have to remember 

I hope this cheat sheet helps you be more efficient (and win more battles!)

Please give it a whirl and let me know if you enjoy it! I would LOVE some feedback and critiques! If you notice that a rule is wrong, please either tell me here or post it as an issue here

fy7FhJX.png

P.S. it is print-friendly! When you hit print, all of the fancy UI elements are stripped out and you get a list like so:

 

m8hLkr5.png

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@daviseford really nice!

My only comment would be to add option for allies if possible (as most IJ army will use Fungoid as well)

great work

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2 minutes ago, broche said:

@daviseford really nice!

My only comment would be to add option for allies if possible (as most IJ army will use Fungoid as well)

great work

That's a good point, and I definitely plan to support adding allies down the line. It may not be this week, but I certainly have it on the roadmap!

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15 hours ago, daviseford said:

I developed a nifty online tool last week that might help you guys with your battles in the future. As a Seraphon player, I was always stressed that I was forgetting to do things in the right phase.

So, I developed AoS Reminders. It has Seraphon, Gloomspite Gitz, Sylvaneth, Idoneth Deepkin, and most importantly, Ironjawz!!!!

Check it out here -> https://daviseford.com/aos-reminders/

Basically, you add your units, battalions, command traits, realmscape features, and artifacts, and you will get an ordered list of what abilities to use during which phase. I know how many rules you guys have to remember 

I hope this cheat sheet helps you be more efficient (and win more battles!)

Please give it a whirl and let me know if you enjoy it! I would LOVE some feedback and critiques! If you notice that a rule is wrong, please either tell me here or post it as an issue here

fy7FhJX.png

P.S. it is print-friendly! When you hit print, all of the fancy UI elements are stripped out and you get a list like so:

 

m8hLkr5.png

Great.Very good idea! Thanks. 

Do it for Beastclaws Raiders please! 

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