AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[broche]

Yes in fact the range i find problematic is Fellwater (6 + 6) wich is quite low so maybe i would prefer rockgut for that reason.

What i dislike with weirdfist is the lack of mobility (especially if you use balewind). Playing with endless spell instead allow you to split your force and having threat at 2 different spot on the board.

Note that you could easily tweak the list to include weirdfist as well. Not sure if it's better, i'll need to try

 

 

[Lanoss]

Hey guys

I was hoping you would share your thoughts on a Double MawKrusha in Bloodtoofs build verses taking more bodies in Bloodtoofs - in the competitive scene

[Imperial]

I played 2 games with IJ last week.

Lose 1:13 vs FEC. (4 dragons and 6 flyers. wipe out from board) Scenario THE RELOCATION ORB

Win 7:5 vs Sylvaneth. (Drycha Hamadreth, 2 Spirit of Durthu, 30 Tree-Revenants, 2x5 Spite-Revenants, 2x3 melee Kurnoth Hunters) Scenario THE RELOCATION ORB

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (580)
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak 
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Prismatic Palisade (30)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122
 

 

[broche]

@Lanoss

I'm wondering why would you want 2 Maw-Krusha in a bloodtooth (in fact I still don't understand why poeple want bloodtooth anyway but that's another debate)
With 2 Krusha, you already have 900 pts of fast hard hitting troops (with mortal wound output). An Inronfist does little to improve your 
list, much less bloodtooth. A weirdfist or ardfist would serve much better in filling gap. If want higher mobility, just splash a Weirnob
and a Cog...

@Imperial

I think your list can be improved. You spent 130 pts in endless spell (not sure what use you find to Vortex?)
with a single wizard with no casting bonus. It's really hard to make a good list with Gordrakk cause he is so expensive.

My current gordrakk list is kind of an hybrid alpha/beta strike (still unsure of 2nd artefact):

Gordrakk    580    
Orruk Warboss    140    
Warchanter    80    aetherquartz brooch
Warchanter    80    
        
10 ardboys    160    
5 brutes    180    
5 brutes    180    
6 Gore gruntas    280    
3 Gore gruntas    140    
        
ironfist    180    

So your list is pretty similar in a sense, with the difference that you replace Warboss by Megaboss, 10 ardboys with 5 brutes 
and Ironfist with fungoid + Cog and other spell. Doing so you merge units to have more target for Gordrakk.

Problem I've with Cog is that with a fungoid it have only 55% odds to go off if you're out of dispel range. You also get to use Gordrakk on only 1 units
wich can be sad. However it does have the benefit of affecting all your army (over only Ironfist), at the cost of giving extra move to your
opponent as well.

So my suggestion to your list would be drop Vortex and Palissade, and switch Fungoid for Weirnob and start with an extra command with a good bet 
on the triumph. But even there you're still 8 drop meaning you won't get to choose to go 1st or 2nd in most matchup something important for IJ
in the current meta.

[Lanoss]

@broche  I feel the value in a Bloodtoofs is the extra 2CP (for Waaagh!), 3 artefacts (because IJs need all the boost they can get), the +1 to run, +2 overall to charge, +2 bravery & +D6” movement to IJ batteline in hero phase. 

I’m not sure a weirdfist works  as well. I feel it’s a lot of points for a boost to one hero and is without the aforementioned benefits of a Bloodtoof build 

Id like to know everyone’s experience running 2x MawKrushas. If there’s any value to that

[broche]

@Malakree had a double krusha weirdfist and did decent at a tournament. It's the only record I can remember. About bloodtooth and double krusha, let just do a quick exercise: you want to get value from bloodtooth, you need some Brutes (they benefit the best from bravery boost). You'll also need some Ardboys/Gruntas to cover objectives. I'm already at 1840 pts.

So now I need at least a third Hero to at least benefit from the third artefact. So i'll take a Warchanter and Ironskullz. For artefact, brooch is no brainer, and daubing (could be cuisrass) for extra protection is never bad. Third artefact tough is pretty meh. I feel the lens would be the best choice for some added MW protection.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork 
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Lens of Refraction 
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 107
 

Not too shabby. However, exact same list with Ironsunz and replace lens for golden tooth or boss skewer is just strictly better (you can argue all day, but no +1 run/charge don't worth a -1 to hit even if it's just 4 game out of 6, especially since we already have +1 to charge and we can't run and charge). Also you could replace 5 brutes by 10 ardboys and add a fungoid (1950 pts, same CP count but you'll  might get triumph. triumph is also better than +1 to charge). 

So bottomline, I find paying 70 pts for extra +1 to charge and extra artefact for an army that struggle to get wounds and model count on the board is quite hard to justify...

I guess Bloodtooth might be ok if you already have lots of troop and you want to stay under 6 drops. 

 

[Superninja]

@Lanoss Long ago in this thread it was pointed out that you really want at least 140 wounds with any Ironjawz list.  (there are exceptions)I have to agree with this sentiment.  My experience has shown this to be good advice.

With 2 mawkrushas and the 2 battalions, it is impossible to hit this target wound count.  You would have to do so much work with those Mawkrushas to make up for the loss of the wounds.  2 Mawkrushas can do a lot, but they can also die fairly quickly, especially without defensive traits and artefacts.   In the competitive scene, there are lot's of mortal wounds, alpha strikes,  and other shenanigans to deal with.  The extra wounds would allow you to weather that storm.

However, try it. See what you think. Report back please.

[Skumbaagh]

5 hours ago, broche said:

@Malakree had a double krusha weirdfist and did decent at a tournament. It's the only record I can remember. About bloodtooth and double krusha, let just do a quick exercise: you want to get value from bloodtooth, you need some Brutes (they benefit the best from bravery boost). You'll also need some Ardboys/Gruntas to cover objectives. I'm already at 1840 pts.

So now I need at least a third Hero to at least benefit from the third artefact. So i'll take a Warchanter and Ironskullz. For artefact, brooch is no brainer, and daubing (could be cuisrass) for extra protection is never bad. Third artefact tough is pretty meh. I feel the lens would be the best choice for some added MW protection.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork 
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Lens of Refraction 
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 107
 

Not too shabby. However, exact same list with Ironsunz and replace lens for golden tooth or boss skewer is just strictly better (you can argue all day, but no +1 run/charge don't worth a -1 to hit even if it's just 4 game out of 6, especially since we already have +1 to charge and we can't run and charge). Also you could replace 5 brutes by 10 ardboys and add a fungoid (1950 pts, same CP count but you'll  might get triumph. triumph is also better than +1 to charge). 

So bottomline, I find paying 70 pts for extra +1 to charge and extra artefact for an army that struggle to get wounds and model count on the board is quite hard to justify...

I guess Bloodtooth might be ok if you already have lots of troop and you want to stay under 6 drops. 

 

Ironskullz boyz doesnt count toward the battalion requirement, so its a tight fit..

[Lanoss]

Thank you @broche and @Superninja  appreciate the input. I’ll try it and see

Yes, @Skumbaagh I had the same query. I didn’t think Ironskull’s boys could be used... if they can... WHOOOOOO! 

[Skumbaagh]

3 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

Thank you @broche and @Superninja  appreciate the input. I’ll try it and see

Yes, @Skumbaagh I had the same query. I didn’t think Ironskull’s boys could be used... if they can... WHOOOOOO! 

yeah no they can't 

[Imperial]

12 hours ago, broche said:

I think your list can be improved. You spent 130 pts in endless spell (not sure what use you find to Vortex?)
with a single wizard with no casting bonus. It's really hard to make a good list with Gordrakk cause he is so expensive.

I take Vortex for extra spell and 6" range of spells. With cogs in Slow Down Time mode you can cast 3-4 spells with this little grot! In game vs FEC he cast STOKE RAGE and INFERNO BLADES and replace Prismatic Palisade each turn. Now Vortex same model with wizard, so you can get bonus from arcane terrain. 

Prismatic Palisade work very well to split enemy army and make some debuffs. In turn 4 vs Sylvaneth 2 Druthu and 1 unit of Kurnoth have debuff from it and this help me kill 1 Druthu and 1 unit of Kurnoths easy. 

Goddrakk + Megaboss with Thermalrider Cloak work realy nice! I just use Goddrakk ability when i need 2 extra attack and 3d6 charge and spam WAAAGZ from Megaboss later.

[Malakree]

10 hours ago, Lanoss said:

@broche  I feel the value in a Bloodtoofs is the extra 2CP (for Waaagh!), 3 artefacts (because IJs need all the boost they can get), the +1 to run, +2 overall to charge, +2 bravery & +D6” movement to IJ batteline in hero phase. 

I’m not sure a weirdfist works  as well. I feel it’s a lot of points for a boost to one hero and is without the aforementioned benefits of a Bloodtoof build 

Id like to know everyone’s experience running 2x MawKrushas. If there’s any value to that

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Jade Diadem 
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Hypersnare Seeds 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 6x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 4x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 6x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 4x Big Choppas

Battalions
Weirdfist (180)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119
 

This is my current list, finished 25th at slaughter (27th on pure gaming). Took a similar list to chrimbobo and finished 25th. Went 3-2 both times. I'll be taking it to heat 1 next week, don't expect to do amazing but it's a fun list which is very technical to play. 

[BobbyB]

@Lanoss I have been running double maw krusha bloodtoofs (and will be for the foreseeable future because I'm moving house and won't have a chance to paint anything else before my next tournament).  I love it, and have a decent record in club games recently. (I went 1-4 at blood & glory but that was my first games of AOS2).  To be honest I'd be surprised to do better than 2-3 at a tournament, but then I've never done better than that with any army anyway 😂)

It means you can use one to cover most of the table for the waagh, and then stick the other in their face (I take mirrored cuirass for some mortal wound defence).  Yes taking objectives can be tricky so you have to push to do enough damage to keep your opponent off them, but that's part of the fun!

PS. If you ever play escalation with this list then good luck 😂

[broche]

4 hours ago, Skumbaagh said:

Ironskullz boyz doesnt count toward the battalion requirement, so its a tight fit..

they count in bloodtooth right? ahhh you need 5 units right. Well it's even worse than I tougth then

 

[Skumbaagh]

1 minute ago, broche said:

they count in bloodtooth right? ahhh you need 5 units right. Well it's even worse than I tougth then

 

They doesnt count toward the maxed ironfist battalion. 

[Superninja]

The ironskull's boys can be used in a bloodtooth, but not as 1 of the 5 units needed for the ironfist.

[DerZauberer]

On 2/15/2019 at 5:27 AM, Malakithe said:

Bonesplitterz need a reword.

Am i the only one thinking that Ironjawz and Blonespitterz get a combined tome?

For me it's pretty much the same leap as Moonclan and Spiderfang Grots. 

In addition, they could really fill up the blank spots of each faction. Bonesplitterz got the chaff and magic, ironjawz the elites. I'm still thinking that GW will produce Battletomes for AoS with a similiar high pace 40k had in 8th edition and it's a great thing in my oppinion.  40k for example is in a real solid and great state because of this. 

[Malakree]

4 minutes ago, DerZauberer said:

Am i the only one thinking that Ironjawz and Blonespitterz get a combined tome?

For me it's pretty much the same leap as Moonclan and Spiderfang Grots. 

In addition, they could really fill up the blank spots of each faction. Bonesplitterz got the chaff and magic, ironjawz the elites. I'm still thinking that GW will produce Battletomes for AoS with a similiar high pace 40k had in 8th edition and it's a great thing in my oppinion.  40k for example is in a real solid and great state because of this. 

At think at this point we can take the list from the AoS2 Faction Focus as gospel. This keeps Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz seperate, all we can hope is that we get an expanded range. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/06/05/faction-focus-index/

I think the biggest thing to watch will be the upcoming Gutbusters battletome. My reasoning this is to see how their spotlight corrisponds to their release. If they just get a rules rewrite then I think we're screwed, if they get an faction expansion then there is still hope.

[DerZauberer]

4 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I think the biggest thing to watch will be the upcoming Gutbusters battletome. My reasoning this is to see how their spotlight corrisponds to their release. If they just get a rules rewrite then I think we're screwed, if they get an faction expansion then there is still hope.

As much as i've heard, Skaven and FEC - although just a few new models - are real fun and got an huge power boost with their new tomes.

Even if Ironjawz will be it it's own tome and only gets one modell (perhaps hero), you could give a lot of tricks and new non-model toys to them. Especially FEC seems to be the poster-faction when talking about low variety, but the tome really made them upper class scary and meaningful. 

[Malakree]

20 minutes ago, DerZauberer said:

As much as i've heard, Skaven and FEC - although just a few new models - are real fun and got an huge power boost with their new tomes.

Even if Ironjawz will be it it's own tome and only gets one modell (perhaps hero), you could give a lot of tricks and new non-model toys to them. Especially FEC seems to be the poster-faction when talking about low variety, but the tome really made them upper class scary and meaningful. 

8 heroes and 5 other units, compare this to our 4 heroes (excluding Big G) and 3 units. Relatively we are an even smaller faction than they are and lack the "holes" in our list building from those units that they did.

What I mean by this is if we look at Gristlegore. It's taking a unit which wasn't previously battleline (the behmoths) and making it battleline, then expanding around the idea of a monster mash. Equally Blisterkin and Hollowmourne are about expanding the conditional battleline in a way which isn't general restricted.

[DerZauberer]

19 minutes ago, Malakree said:

8 heroes and 5 other units, compare this to our 4 heroes (excluding Big G) and 3 units. Relatively we are an even smaller faction than they are and lack the "holes" in our list building from those units that they did.

FEC are 4 Boxes if i'm not mistaking: Zombie Dragon, Ghouls, Crypt Flayers and Varghulf? We have 8 boxes right now. 

Like @Skabnoze already mentioned you could easily make brutes/ggs/ardboys different units, depending on which items they wear.  Make a "wild" maw krusha without riding bosses on top or a dual wield megaboss for example. It would be a bit sad to just have "reskins" of already available units but it's what FEC got. The holes for FEC in list building were filled by just the book, nothing else. It's easy to make something similiar rulewise for ironjawz, e.g. make a gorefist army, not just an battalion, make a mawkrusha army legal. You could even go that far and say something like "those are the waaaghseeker ardboys, less skilled then proper ardboys but also though as nails" and make a cheaper ardboy version to fill that gap.

My point is, similiar like the FEC Release, a rulebook can easily change how an army is viewed and played, including the models already available in that range.

Edited February 26, 2019 by DerZauberer

[Malakree]

35 minutes ago, DerZauberer said:

My point is, similiar like the FEC Release, a rulebook can easily change how an army is viewed and played, including the models already available in that range.

I can see the expansion of GG's into 2 units, maybe Ardboys aswell. I don't think you can separate Brutes and the Mawkrusha in it's current kit can't be riderless, the feet spots on the back are obvious without a rider.

I'm not saying that you can't update the rules to be awesome, I'm arguing that the limited scope of our kits is going to be very restrictive. I'd say we need at least 2 new kits, one hero and one unit, in order to gain that flexibility.

A Hero Kit with GG mounted Megaboss or Weirdnob (maybe even warchanter aswell)
Some form of new unit/monster kit. Whether this is a new Brute kit which can be multiple units (Squig Hoppers) or just a re-released MawKrusha (with the option for a Weirdnob and/or no rider).

[DerZauberer]

3 minutes ago, Malakree said:

A Hero Kit with GG mounted Megaboss or Weirdnob (maybe even warchanter aswell)
Some form of new unit/monster kit. Whether this is a new Brute kit which can be multiple units (Squig Hoppers) or just a re-released MawKrusha (with the option for a Weirdnob and/or no rider).

I would love that and i'm really hoping for new Ironjawz kits, but my bet is going for new tomes and endless spells, one mounted hero, no terrain but a rule to destroy/interrupt enemy terrain and 50/50 for combining bonesplitterz and ironjawz. 

[Vergozen]

6 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I can see the expansion of GG's into 2 units, maybe Ardboys aswell. I don't think you can separate Brutes and the Mawkrusha in it's current kit can't be riderless, the feet spots on the back are obvious without a rider.

What if they made a "Upgrade Kit" for the Mawkrusha that would give you covers for the feet holes and some plastic basing bits to make the Megaboss easier to run on foot.  They could even add some kind of platform so you could add a Warchanter or Weirdnob. 

Also unrelated question, can you stack multiple Waagh!s from a single MegaBoss if you have the comand points for it?

[Skabnoze]

2 hours ago, Vergozen said:

What if they made a "Upgrade Kit" for the Mawkrusha that would give you covers for the feet holes and some plastic basing bits to make the Megaboss easier to run on foot.  They could even add some kind of platform so you could add a Warchanter or Weirdnob. 

Also unrelated question, can you stack multiple Waagh!s from a single MegaBoss if you have the comand points for it?

That is a possibility, but it would make more sense for them to either rework the existing plastic sprue to include those bits (doubtful as they would then have to rework existing expensive molds) or create the new sprue and rebox the unit (probably at a slight price increase).  It's not a bad idea - although the level of effort requires here warrants asking the question about how much a riderless Mawkrusha would honestly add to the army. 

I understand that people may not like the idea of separating the Brute kit into 2 units, but I do not understand the argument that it would not work.  The box has 2 very distinct weapon options within it for the standard troops.  One is dual wielding choppas and the other is a big glaive.  Those different options give the unit a very distinct silhouette - which is something that we know the GW team considers important for this game.  The current rules for the weapons are immaterial and can be changed however the designers wish.  The boss has multiple weapon build options in the box also - although people currently only like the klaw/smasha weapon option.  The box includes a single gore-hacka and GW could do whatever they want with that option.  It could be an option for both units to take similar to how Stabbas and Shootas can both take nets as a weapon upgrade.  Or they could choose to restrict the weapon upgrade to a particular unit.

Another option entirely would be to do what they did with Flesh Eater Courts and split some of the upgrade option models out into separate hero entries.  They could potentially make a hero entry using either the boss with klaw/smasha or the gore-hacka.  This would be a relatively easy way for GW to add lesser heroes into the army without much effort - and I think everyone agrees that Ironjawz could use more hero diversity.

Now, I want to make a point that I am not strongly advocating for any of these particular solutions.  I am simply taking a look at how GW have previously expanded other unit boxes into separate choices to increase unit diversity.  I currently see nothing about the composition of parts within the Brute box that would prevent them from doing something similar here if they so chose.  There does not appear to be anything physically stopping them.  It will just depend upon what the designers want to do for the army and how many new kits they do or do not get allocated for production when they decide to rework the battletome.  These are all just possibilities for what they might possibly do.