AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

With what the Gloomspite Gitz book is doing (which I freaking love!), what do you guys think is the future of the Ironjawz?  Do you think they’ll be merged with other orruk factions?  Could the fluff support that?

I don't think the Ironjawz will be merged with anything.  Their backstory calls them out as being a very distinct group of Orruks and they barely tolerate the Ardboyz as it is.  I expect this will remain true along with Bonesplitterz remaining their own distinct group also.

My prediction for Ironjawz is that we will at some point (hopefully not too long) see a rewrite of the army book and a small release wave of a couple kits.  There is easily room in the Ironjawz faction for another unit or two of Ironjawz and potentially an alternate unit type of Ardboyz.  I would not be surprised to see the weapon options for both Brutes and GoreGruntas to be pulled out into their own distinct units and the box sets repackaged as a dual-kit (just change the box packaging).  In addition, there is a lot of room for more heroes - both Ironjawz and Ardboyz.  Then you figure there will be a set of Endless Spells and possibly a terrain piece.

The book would fit the format of the current Battletomes and so you would see an Ironjawz spell lore, more artifacts, a couple more battalions, the removal of the large blanket 1-drop battalions (I like them too - but I think they will go away), and the introduction of rules for the various Ironjaw tribes.

I expect the same thing will probably happen for Bonesplitterz at some point in time.  From there that just leaves Greenskinz and Gitmob (ignoring Ogres for this discussion) and I do think that GW will merge those 2 into a single army whenever they decide to address those forces - but that is probably something really far off.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

With what the Gloomspite Gitz book is doing (which I freaking love!), what do you guys think is the future of the Ironjawz?  Do you think they’ll be merged with other orruk factions?  Could the fluff support that?

My hope would be a re-release of the Ironjawz which expands on the concepts we already have while also rolling the Greenskinz into the faction. This would give us a good variety of options/builds while also being the perfect expression of Orruk society.

EDIT: So a triad book similar to the recent Gloomspite/Beasts books. True Ironjawz (Brutes/GG's), Old Black Orcs (Ardboys) and Greenskinz.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Malakree

[Skabnoze]

6 minutes ago, Malakree said:

EDIT: So a triad book similar to the recent Gloomspite/Beasts books. True Ironjawz (Brutes/GG's), Old Black Orcs (Ardboys) and Greenskinz.

The idea of Ardboyz and Ironjawz becoming separate sub-allegiances within an  "Waaagh Gordrakk" is an interesting idea.  But I will start taking bets now that Greenskins would have nothing to do with it and instead will be combined with Gitmob at some future point into the Age of Sigmar equivalent of the old Orcs & Goblins army.  I could be wrong, but I have a very strong feeling about this one.

[Gothmaug]

23 minutes ago, Malakree said:

My hope would be a re-release of the Ironjawz which expands on the concepts we already have while also rolling the Greenskinz into the faction. This would give us a good variety of options/builds while also being the perfect expression of Orruk society.

EDIT: So a triad book similar to the recent Gloomspite/Beasts books. True Ironjawz (Brutes/GG's), Old Black Orcs (Ardboys) and Greenskinz.

Considering beasts of chaos just cleaned up a big pile of old chaos units and gloomspire did the same for destruction, I think the next push would be a similar treatment for order, cleaning up the old elves dwarves and human factions. 

 

Ironjawz already have “modern” releases. Sadly, I think an ironjawz  reboot is a long way off. Personally I don’t need a reboot, but releasing another unit or three would go a long way with me. Or as some have said, let up absorb green skins. The story already supports it, with hordes of orcs flocking to Gordrakk, no reason why we can’t have other green skins and grots tagging along. 

Perhaps some vehicles? Chariots pulled by Gruntas? Or a megaboss on a grunta?

[Malakree]

4 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

Ironjawz already have “modern” releases. Sadly, I think an ironjawz  reboot is a long way off. Personally I don’t need a reboot, but releasing another unit or three would go a long way with me. Or as some have said, let up absorb green skins. The story already supports it, with hordes of orcs flocking to Gordrakk, no reason why we can’t have other green skins and grots tagging along. 

Perhaps some vehicles? Chariots pulled by Gruntas? Or a megaboss on a grunta?

When I say "rerelease" what I mean is a faction wide warscroll update with some new kits which allow for an expanded army choice.

EDIT: I guess you could call it the stormcast treatment, where they get a rerelease every year which comes with a warscroll update.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Malakree

[Skabnoze]

34 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

I think the next push would be a similar treatment for order, cleaning up the old elves dwarves and human factions. 

I have been thinking the same thing.

The more I think about it the more sense it makes for GW to combine the legacy dwarf, elves, and humans into a single army.  I also find that to be an extremely interesting concept.  The groundwork is already there in the background since they make it very clear that many of the major cities are inhabited by these races and they play specific roles within those societies.  For instance, the dwarfs are generally builders and craftsmen, the elves assist with travel & trade, the humans are a larger merchant & labor force, etc.  It seems an interesting concept to combine them into an army where Free People, Dispossessed, Ironweld Arsenal, and some of the elves all merge into a distinctive & coherent force.  That seems like a really neat idea and I hope that GW explores it.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Skabnoze

[kenshin620]

21 hours ago, Gothmaug said:

Considering beasts of chaos just cleaned up a big pile of old chaos units and gloomspire did the same for destruction

At least Grots got new models and even a few new units. Honestly a decent chunk of new models that rivals or even surpasses some of the model-lite battletomes like fyreslayers.

Meanwhile "hey want to use Beast Chariots? I hope you like 6th edition!" (not a single new model not counting terrain/endless spells and they didn't even reinstate Malagor despite STILL SELLING HIS MODEL!)

 

21 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

The idea of Ardboyz and Ironjawz becoming separate sub-allegiances within an  "Waaagh Gordrakk" is an interesting idea.  But I will start taking bets now that Greenskins would have nothing to do with it and instead will be combined with Gitmob at some future point into the Age of Sigmar equivalent of the old Orcs & Goblins army.  I could be wrong, but I have a very strong feeling about this one.

I was actually even thinking of a book with separate Waaaghs to have multiple subfactions. But that might be too logical for a future orruk update....🤔

As for Gitmobs, they need to embrace Hobgoblins and go full on Grot Khans!

[Skabnoze]

20 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

At least Grots got new models and even a few new units. Honestly a decent chunk of new models that rivals or even surpasses some of the model-lite battletomes like fyreslayers.

Meanwhile "hey want to use Beast Chariots? I hope you like 6th edition!" (not a single new model not counting terrain/endless spells and they didn't even reinstate Malagor despite STILL SELLING HIS MODEL!)

It would have been great to get new models for Beasts of Chaos, but they were one of the most neglected and niche factions in all of Warhammer Fantasy and always had been.  I was honestly amazed that they were not either dropped entirely from Age of Sigmar along with Brettonians & Tomb Kings or else mashed back into Slaves to Darkness.  I'm glad they got their own book, but they have never seemed to even really been popular within the studio itself over the years.  Orcs & Goblins always seemed to have fans within GW themselves even if they were generally considered a "fun" or "goofy" army.  At least Beasts of Chaos got a Herdstone model and Endless spells - it's better than nothing. 

I'll be honest and say that I was completely surprised to see Goblins ever get their own full army book and I am astounded at the amount of new models they are releasing.  Never in my craziest pipe-dreams would I have predicted a release such as this.  I hope that at some point later down the road Beasts of Chaos proves to be popular enough that they expand them with a new model release wave as well.  This new book laid a much much more interesting foundation for that army than ever existed previously.

[Malakree]

Oh man, I just realized how good having Skragrott as an ally is for Ironjawz. 2 Spells one of which is his ridiculous personal. Add in the shooting attack and his ridiculous personal survivability and oh wow!

[kenshin620]

1 minute ago, Skabnoze said:

It would have been great to get new models for Beasts of Chaos, but they were one of the most neglected and niche factions in all of Warhammer Fantasy and always had been.

Well at least they werent as neglected as Chaos Dwarfs 🤣

But yea I do sadly agree that Beasts are niche and will always be niche (but having terrible rules in 7th didn't really help).

 

As for the grots I think there were 2 things going for them

1. many of their models were from 7th-8th edition. 2. GW wanted to "AoS-ify" a faction and you got crazy cave goblins eating mushrooms, worshiping spiders, and riding mouths on legs. That is already pretty unique to WFB and amping it up to 11 for AoS was a pretty logical step especially with all the new sculpting skills they have gained from things like Nighthaunt or Death Guard.

Meanwhile "Normal" Greenskinz and Grots are suffering from the "might be too generic for AoS" thing (which is a silly argument imo, I mean Legion of Nagash is basically Castlevania: The Book). Especially since so many of their models are from 6th edition with Black Orcs moving to IJ. That leaves the Plastic Orc Warboss, the Plastic Orc Boar Boyz, Wyvern Boss/Azagh (who costs and arm and a leg anyways), and the Nasty Skulkers as their only 7th-8th edition sets. I'm not sure GW is willing to revive O&G with so many old kits that would need a lot of TLC to update as opposed to other armies with plenty of 7th-8th edition models like the elves (who might also get mashed up in one book with their weird webstore organization)

 

With this being the IJ topic, I think honestly it might be better for AoS if they gave a big IJ update (like 5-7 new kits) than trying to revive classic O&G.

[Skabnoze]

@Malakree so looking at the online site changes I will admit that my suspicions may be wrong concerning Gitmob and Greenskinz.  Gitmob looks like it is completely gone now and if you compare the UK and US sites it looks like Greenskinz may go away once they sell through stock.  Hopefully they don't drop Greenskinz completely from the game and they either fold them into Ironjawz as you mentioned or they bring them back with a Gloomspite style update.  I think there is definitely room for the generic orruks as a force and I would hate to see them completely go away (I also have over 200 of them - so maybe I have an ulterior motive...).

[sporadicMike]

Fungoid lost his command ability but generates a new command point on a 4+ seems like a good trade to me as an ally. 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, sporadicMike said:

Fungoid lost his command ability but generates a new command point on a 4+ seems like a good trade to me as an ally. 

We really need to see what the lore of moonclan spells are. I suspect skragrott+fungoid+cauldron are going to be absolute top tier allies for us. Defiantly better than the weirdnob.

Skragrot with the cauldron is 2 spels/unbinds at -2 with possibly the best personal spell ever and the entire moonclan lore. Not to mention that 6 wounds, 5+/4++ makes him way more survivable than the weirdnob.

Oh and he gets an artillery piece as his personal weapon.

EDIT: Irronic that the best ironjawz list will probably feature gloomspite wizards and endless spells. That shroom as a horde killer anyone? It's like it was designed for a brute heavy list.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Malakree

[Skabnoze]

Looking at the Gloomspite Gitz rules just imagine what GW would come up with for an Ironjawz update.

[Malakree]

19 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Looking at the Gloomspite Gitz rules just imagine what GW would come up with for an Ironjawz update.

An army wide increase of -1 rend maybe....

[Skabnoze]

18 minutes ago, Malakree said:

An army wide increase of -1 rend maybe....

🤣

I’m sure they could come up with something more interesting than that.  At least I would hope so.

[Superninja]

oh ****** the fungoid changed a lot.

not -1 to be hit anymore. (that made him so hard to kill)

the 1 time use mushroom that gave him an extra cast/unbind, rerolls to cast/unbind/saves is now just a 1 time extra spell!! Man i really loved that.

his +5 save after the save for wounds/mortals is now 4+ for wounds/mortals.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/AoS_Gloomspite_Gitz_WSCards_Fungoid_Cave-Shaman.pdf

[Superninja]

I am so excited at the possibility of an IJ update.  What they have done recently is so fun and looks amazing.  Additional kits would be so welcomed and would spice us up!  I hope it continues for all. (us next please)

[Skabnoze]

3 minutes ago, Superninja said:

oh ****** the fungoid changed a lot.

not -1 to be hit anymore. (that made him so hard to kill)

the 1 time use mushroom that gave him an extra cast/unbind, rerolls to cast/unbind/saves is now just a 1 time extra spell!! Man i really loved that.

his +5 save after the save for wounds/mortals is now 4+ for wounds/mortals.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/AoS_Gloomspite_Gitz_WSCards_Fungoid_Cave-Shaman.pdf

Personally I am happy to trade that all away for a 4+ each turn for an extra command point.    That is going to be solid gold.

[Superninja]

I think you are right. Especially for Ironjaws, more command points are gold for us.  And despite having the -1 to be hit taken away, the 4+ should help compensate.   Should be fun.

I feel he is less "spell insurance" than he was and now just more offense.  I'll probably feel like I want a 2nd caster now.  A lot of times I'd allow myself to think he was enough and often it got by (barely).  The -1 to be hit was nice vs celestar ballista that really wanted him dead.

So, are 2 fungoids each creating command points?

Edited January 5, 2019 by Superninja

[Malakree]

19 minutes ago, Superninja said:

I feel he is less "spell insurance" than he was and now just more offense.  I'll probably feel like I want a 2nd caster now.  A lot of times I'd allow myself to think he was enough and often it got by (barely).  The -1 to be hit was nice vs celestar ballista that really wanted him dead.

Skagrott, he's the answer.

19 minutes ago, Superninja said:

So, are 2 fungoids each creating command points?

No the wording states if one is on the board....wait it looks like they ****** the wording up and yes it does stack. Expect it to be errata so fast it's unreal.

That or 5 fungoids+Cabbage with Aetherquartz becomes a thing. Enjoy facing that, average of just over 5 command points a turn. Actually Ironjawz with 5 Waaagh! every single one of their turns would probably be competitively viable.

[Skabnoze]

Yeah right now it does stack and that is just plain bonkers.  I think GW should honestly remove that as it could lead to issues down the road.  40k has major issues with command point batteries and while command points are different in AoS I don’t think we need to set a precedent for army-list command point batteries.  That is a slippery slope and I hope it gets squashed.

[dirkdragonslayer]

On 1/3/2019 at 2:11 PM, Skabnoze said:

I don't think the Ironjawz will be merged with anything.  Their backstory calls them out as being a very distinct group of Orruks and they barely tolerate the Ardboyz as it is.  I expect this will remain true along with Bonesplitterz remaining their own distinct group also.

My prediction for Ironjawz is that we will at some point (hopefully not too long) see a rewrite of the army book and a small release wave of a couple kits.  There is easily room in the Ironjawz faction for another unit or two of Ironjawz and potentially an alternate unit type of Ardboyz.  I would not be surprised to see the weapon options for both Brutes and GoreGruntas to be pulled out into their own distinct units and the box sets repackaged as a dual-kit (just change the box packaging).  In addition, there is a lot of room for more heroes - both Ironjawz and Ardboyz.  Then you figure there will be a set of Endless Spells and possibly a terrain piece.

The book would fit the format of the current Battletomes and so you would see an Ironjawz spell lore, more artifacts, a couple more battalions, the removal of the large blanket 1-drop battalions (I like them too - but I think they will go away), and the introduction of rules for the various Ironjaw tribes.

I expect the same thing will probably happen for Bonesplitterz at some point in time.  From there that just leaves Greenskinz and Gitmob (ignoring Ogres for this discussion) and I do think that GW will merge those 2 into a single army whenever they decide to address those forces - but that is probably something really far off.

I feel the best way for them to expand on Ironjawz would to focus more on the smaller Orruks following them, the 'Ardboyz. The Megaboss, Brutes, Gruntas, etc aren't likely to pick up a ranged weapon and fight, but the Ardboyz might. They could look to the old world for inspiration for the Ironjawz. Ruglud's Armored Orcs used to be a unique DoW unit that could be reimagined into Ardboyz with Crossbows and Capes/Hoods. Maybe some heavy duty Catapults since they have a big focus on smashing fortifications and cities. These are all the jobs the little Orruks would be given since the Ironjawz are too busy smashing things up, and could add some variety. Maybe an Ironjawz Gore Grunta Chariot made from looted pieces held together by scrap metal, or some new stompy Ghur monsters..

[Skabnoze]

3 minutes ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

I feel the best way for them to expand on Ironjawz would to focus more on the smaller Orruks following them, the 'Ardboyz. The Megaboss, Brutes, Gruntas, etc aren't likely to pick up a ranged weapon and fight, but the Ardboyz might. They could look to the old world for inspiration for the Ironjawz. Ruglud's Armored Orcs used to be a unique DoW unit that could be reimagined into Ardboyz with Crossbows and Capes/Hoods. Maybe some heavy duty Catapults since they have a big focus on smashing fortifications and cities. These are all the jobs the little Orruks would be given since the Ironjawz are too busy smashing things up, and could add some variety. Maybe an Ironjawz Gore Grunta Chariot made from looted pieces held together by scrap metal, or some new stompy Ghur monsters..

Now that gitmob appear to be entirely removed from the store I think I am inclined to agree with you.  I think they would handle they similarly to Gloomspite though.  I still see Ironjawz remaining distinct as an allegiance and then being combined with other lesser orruk allegiances under a larger force.  So how Moonclan and Spiderfang are within Gloomspite.

[Malakree]

31 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Yeah right now it does stack and that is just plain bonkers.  I think GW should honestly remove that as it could lead to issues down the road.  40k has major issues with command point batteries and while command points are different in AoS I don’t think we need to set a precedent for army-list command point batteries.  That is a slippery slope and I hope it gets squashed.

The ability should read.

"If a friendly model with this ability is on the battlefield under your control at the start of your hero phase, roll a dice. On a 4+ you receive 1 extra command point."

The highlighted bit is if you want to try and make it explicit for multiplayer games. Honestly though I'd leave it out.

27 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Now that gitmob appear to be entirely removed from the store I think I am inclined to agree with you.  I think they would handle they similarly to Gloomspite though.  I still see Ironjawz remaining distinct as an allegiance and then being combined with other lesser orruk allegiances under a larger force.  So how Moonclan and Spiderfang are within Gloomspite.

Yeah, this is how I see it going. Some expansion on the Ironjawz front, probably a Megaboss on GoreGrunta, seperate the two different types of GG's into a charge focused on (with the spears) and a brawl focused one (with the choppas) and some sort of super heavy brute infantry along the lines of terminators (2+ saves).

Then expand the Ardboys into a fully fledged force in their own right with the Warchanter and Weirdnob going into that subfaction. This gives you the "Ironjawz" as your big punch units which are all about whose Da Biggest An' Da Ardest while the Ardboy subfaction becomes a much more militaristic type of Orruk, like in the fluff. This would be where you would put the warmachine-esque units. Warchanter on GoreGrunta Chariot, GoreGrunta Chariots. This would then give you options to introduce Ardboy Arbalests with Massive Crossbows and an Ardboy Hoplites unit. 

Wrap the different Warboss units into the Ardboys subfaction etc.

Lastly you have the Greenskinz (combining Greenskinz and Gitmob) who essentially function as helots, with spears, short bows, peltasts, more traditional warmachines and much smaller boars.

Actually I suspect you would have the Bonesplitterz as your third Orruk faction. This brings them back into the fold and gives you a good look at the different forms of Orruk society/culture. Massive powerful Ironjawz, savage shamanistic Bonesplitterz and the militaristic Ardboys.

 

It would integrate all the different forms of Orruk together whiling giving a nice juxtaposition between them. Bonesplitterz wouldn't need any new releases, Ironjawz would maybe get a few but you get this whole reimagining and expansion of the Ardboys similar to how Moonclan gained with the Gloomspite.