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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

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Another note on the one drop battalion and its usefulness. Remember that if you have a 1 drop battalion it doesn't mean you need to drop it all at once. If your opponent has 8 drops for example you could still drop 6 units down to see their positioning and for your 7th drop put down the rest of the battalion to give you 2nd turn without being outdeployed.

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Hey @Malakree you put a list up on here the other day that looked like a heap of fun, and you'd been doing well with it competitively too. 

Double Maw Krusha and a Weirdfist. 

Have you done a Rundown on THWG, and if not, could I tempt you into it? It's the most exciting Ironjawz list I've seen in a long time. 

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2 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Hey @Malakree you put a list up on here the other day that looked like a heap of fun, and you'd been doing well with it competitively too. 

Double Maw Krusha and a Weirdfist. 

Have you done a Rundown on THWG, and if not, could I tempt you into it? It's the most exciting Ironjawz list I've seen in a long time. 

"Well" I went 3/5 and lost to the two opponents which mattered. Sure I made a bunch of mistakes and lost some key rolls which definitely contributed but I'm not sure I'd say it's done well competitively.

I can do a rundown if you want but it's not going to be more "what I've learned" and "what I'm guessing at" than anything concrete.

EDIT: So in conclusion, it's not super refined and I'm more of a theory crafter than a top level player like @Chris Tomlin or @Sangfroid go play it yourself, tinker with it. It's definitely a ton of fun to play and is far more enjoyable than +10 attacks Broach games in my opinion. With the Doppelganger nerf I'm not even certain what artefacts I would take though I am always tempted by Gildenbane just to ****** with people.

Edited by Malakree
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4 minutes ago, Malakree said:

"Well" I went 3/5 and lost to the two opponents which mattered. Sure I made a bunch of mistakes and lost some key rolls which definitely contributed but I'm not sure I'd say it's done well competitively.

I can do a rundown if you want but it's not going to be more "what I've learned" and "what I'm guessing at" than anything concrete.

EDIT: So in conclusion, it's not super refined and I'm more of a theory crafter than a top level player like @Chris Tomlin or @Sangfroid go play it yourself, tinker with it. It's definitely a ton of fun to play and is far more enjoyable than +10 attacks Broach games in my opinion. With the Doppelganger nerf I'm not even certain what artefacts I would take though I am always tempted by Gildenbane just to ****** with people.

I got really excited about this list too just right when you posted it, tried one game, lost big time and then initially I thought the list sucked. That said, its very much up to the play style and skill of the player. Sure the list may not be extremely competetive, but I think at least in my case it was more about me sucking at playing it.

Something we miss (imho) when talking about lists is how we play them, or rather: deployment, the winning concept and how we handle certain situations and such. This is something I very much would want to learn more about and maybe these things could be managed in an easy to present way without walls of texts. Like a breakdown of key elements of the list and what to look for when setting up and such. 

I really like learning about your thoughts on lists, to read battle reports and everything else in this thread, gonna keep on skulking about, so dont take this as a complaint!

I myself only fight competetive lists locally (daughters, LoN, slaanesh and nurgle at the time) and have had my few wins with gorefist. I am trying a weirdfist with a rogue idol atm. +4 to cast with arcane terrain is quite exciting! I dont mind losing as long as the game is fun and I get to smash, bash and stomp!

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You're being a bit harsh on yourself there bud, 3/5 is a very strong showing with Ironjawz currently.

Bearing in mind that the top Ironjawz list at Blood and Glory went 2/5 (And that 7 of the 8 went 1/5) it's a good achievement to win the majority of your matches, especially so when the list is so unusual and exciting. 

A List Rundown is the ideal place for theory crafting, in the sense that it's a platform to explain the tech and your ideas behind it... But given that you have tested it competitively with some success, I think it's more than earned its stripes. 

Up to you of course, that hoes without saying, but I know myself and a lot of others would enjoy it and get a lot out of it. 

Go on, it's Christmas 😁

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Wait, what list was this? What did it fight? Was there a rundown? 

Gimme the goodies ;)

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45 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Bearing in mind that the top Ironjawz list at Blood and Glory went 2/5 (And that 7 of the 8 went 1/5) it's a good achievement to win the majority of your matches, especially so when the list is so unusual and exciting. 

Yeah I think that was me and my Bloodtoofs and I essentially forfeited the last game against Byron with his double phoenix list on Blood and Glory battleplan. I got screwed so badly by my game 4 opponent, he was playing nighthaunt and had wiped almost everything off the board with +11 attacks. He then says "I'm screwed and we only have 15mins left do you want to call it there" which I took as him conceding, he then refused to give me the 2k kill points only letting me have 700. This then dumped me against the hardest of hard counters on the battleplan which favoured him so hard. Byron and I talked it out, I showed him how I would get my secondary with no effort then we agreed to not bother playing it out. I'd been going since 6am Friday and he had a 3 hour drive home. 

I made so many mistakes throughout that tournament, should have easily gone 3/5 :( Shoved that list below

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)

Battleline
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139

48 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

A List Rundown is the ideal place for theory crafting, in the sense that it's a platform to explain the tech and your ideas behind it... But given that you have tested it competitively with some success, I think it's more than earned its stripes. 

Up to you of course, that hoes without saying, but I know myself and a lot of others would enjoy it and get a lot out of it. 

Go on, it's Christmas 😁

I'll sling it up here since I don't think it's worthy of an THWG write up.

The list is the weirdfist I linked previously, I'll put it here for reference. 

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Miasmatic Blade 
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Weirdfist (180)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124

So initial comments and thoughts behind the list.

  • List separates into 2 parts, the Hammer and the Anvil.
  • The Hammer is your 2 Cabbages, they are setup to be tanky in order to compensate for the lack of support they will receive.
  • Cabbages can act either separately or independently, essentially as 2 blocks of shock cavalry.
  • The Anvil is your Weirdfist.
  • Your Weirdnob should balewind up in the middle of 30 Ardboys, becoming a proper turtle with no space for anything to get within 3" of your weirdnob.
  • The goregruntas then act as two units of medium cavalry which hang around just on the edge of 10" for the weirdfist.

Anyone with even a basic dabbling into a total war esque game should recognise the setup which has been formed here as a classic battleline/force. Infantry block, medium cavalry, super heavy cavalry, the only thing missing is the archer block which is what your weirdnob is there for.

The first bit is mostly the concept behind the list, how it's supposed to work in theory and how each part of it fits into the overall structure. From this point on it's going to be a mix of experience with the list and just general tips/thoughts or personal opinions.

Deployment

You have a couple of goals in the pregame phase.

  • If you can get arcane terrain you do it. This takes priority over literally everything else, it makes your weirdnob so much better it's unbelievable.
  • Choke points, line of sight and terrain are all key for you, this is because your weirdnob doesn't actually need LoS to kill stuff.
  • If you can get your weirdnob setup in terrain do it. This brings it up to a 3+ save with -1 to hit from shooting, making it surprisingly tanky.
  • Ideally you want your weirdfist setup on or near an objective. The goal is to have it turtle hard, if an objective is sat in the turtle it's free points.

This then leaves you with a two of goals in how you deploy and your aim for deployment.

  1. Deploy in order to get your weirdfist in the most ideal position you can, if that means no balewind turn 1 that's fine but you must have cast it on turn 2 at least.
  2. Deploy in order to protect your Cabbages from alphastrike charges. Often the best way to do this is to use the huge amount of space your GG's take to create pockets for them.

Much as I sucked super hard in this game it does serve as a reasonable example of what I mean with regards to setup.

Notice that while my line is very extended the entire weirdfist is within 10" of my weirdnob AND I managed to get him next to the mystical terrain. I would have preferred that I got him in it but as my opponent had no shooting it was more important to protect him from alphastrikes, something I almost ****** up because apparently durthu has a 3" attack range. (yey for trees blocking pile-in movements and shooting)

Game tips

Your cabbages can operate together if it's advantageous. Seems obvious, I continually forget.

Target Priority. Much as it's tempting to stomp that durthu in your face don't assume you will get a second stomp and instead take the freebe on your opponents 4-6 wound backline buff pieces. Had I done that in this game I would have been in a far stronger position. In my game 5 I did just this and deleted 2 Knight Venators before they could do anything crippling him against my cabbages.

Do not underestimate Green Puke. Honestly this spell won me my game 3 on it's own. As a base spell it's garbage, with a weirdfist+balewind it's disgusting and casts on a 8+ not a 10+. You have very good odds to get +12" from your weirdfist with the average being 18", add on your 6" from the balewind and it's now 24+2d6" range. Since it's a line spell 1" wide you can potentially hit most of your opponents army with D3+3 mortal wounds, it's horrific.
If I had used Greenpuke instead of Foot turn 1 against the sylvaneth both his backline heroes would have died to it essentially winning me the game then and there.

Don't be afraid to deploy over 30" away from the opponents wizards, especially not if you can take Turn 1. As an extension, don't be afraid to take turn 1. Combined with good deployment it can and will win you games. I messed up my deployment game 4 because I didn't consider the 30" unbinding range, this allowed him to use his instant free unbind to save him from the turn 1 paintrain.

As the game develops you might want to separate your GG's from the weirdfist. Honestly this is why I went for 2 units of GG's despite the 20 points spare. In the early game you can have your GG's positioned so they tail out from 9" away from the weirdnob, because of their high movement speed you can then easily push them up to support your cabbages or contest an objective. Sure this means subsequently you won't get the weirdfist bonus for them but that's your next hero phase and you are potentially getting 3 rounds of combat from them in exchange. 

Remember you actually have 30 Ardboys. This is another one of those "no duh" but it needs to be reiterated. Your weirdfist can and should move if the need arrives, it costs you the balewind but dispelling it is free for you. 30 Ardboys are not inconsequential for most armies to try and go through. In the game linked above you can see that Durthu spent 4 full rounds of combat slogging through them and STILL didn't wipe them. It's 60 wounds and 30 bodies you can shove around the board to seize an objective if needed.

List Building

So this is where the are the most questions raised as really I haven't had chance to fine tune it and there is a fair bit of flexibility. The first most important thing to note is the point @Skumbaagh raised. There is a very easy swap which trades a Cabbage for a Rogue Idol and Chronomatic Cogs.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Behemoths
Rogue Idol (400)
- Allies

Battalions
Weirdfist (180)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 400 / 400
Wounds: 126

There are Pros and Cons to this which I wont go into. Possibly just a better version of my list but will play differently in a couple of regards. Ignoring this we end up with 2 areas which are flexible, Artefacts and Units.

Artefacts. Since I played the list the Doppelganger cloak has been nerfed, this is probably neutral for the list since it denies it to our opponents while opening up our own artefact choices. From a purely personal perspective I still love the idea of Gildenbane, it lets you dump on all the other annoying artefacts around, anyone who has had to deal with a VLoZD with ethereal can empathise here. With this iteration I went for a defensive setup but honestly there are a bunch of different ways you could play it.

Units. As previously noted my list has 20 points spare. There is actually a ton of stuff you can do with those 20 points, most basic being Quicksilver Swords/Soulsnare Shackles, I didn't bother with this as they don't benefit from the weirdfist which means it's one less spell cast in the early stages of the game. You could also go for 4 units of Ardboys, this secures your +2 casting bonus even more and puts another 7 bodies on the field, it does however make the GG push far less of an impactful decision. Lastly would be to go 10x10 Ardboys and 5 Brutes with 2h. This is probably the most risky option, it makes the loss of your +2 far easier for your opponent to achieve. On the other hand they now have to deal with an Ardboy line with Brutes swinging over the top of them.

Conclusion

This is essentially all my thoughts/experiences with the list. Not much else to say as unlike my Bloodtoofs I haven't spent a bunch of time refining it.

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On 12/12/2018 at 9:14 PM, broche said:

nice write up, but some of this part (the charge) is not legal unfortunatly ;)

 

haha of course not. i wrote to much in one thread!

 

my point is that you can retreat very long and /or possition yourself to charge THE NEXT TURN to have long threat range :)

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Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 86

Ran this 1000 pt list against a Stormcast buddy.  Knife to the Heart/Ghyran realm.  Was probably the closest/best game I have had so far.  He had a decent amount of shooting and ended up killing my Megaboss on 2nd turn before he could Waaagh!  1st round he had taken 3 wounds.  A set of 3 gruntas held off a set of (3) prosecutors, a set of 5 Liberators, and part of a set of 10 for the whole game.  They wouldn't die.

Edited by Superninja
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Does anyone have experience with troggoths in their list? They look like fun 🙂

Edited by Blitzel

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1 hour ago, Blitzel said:

Does anyone have experience with troggoths in their list? They look like fun 🙂

Two things.

  1. In their current form Troggoths are essentially a bad version of Brutes.
  2. With Gloomspite Gitz coming out Troggoths will become part of that army. As a result we expect new warscrolls to be coming

Only exception is the Troggoth Hag, she's possibly the best destruction hero atm.

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12 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Two things.

  1. In their current form Troggoths are essentially a bad version of Brutes.
  2. With Gloomspite Gitz coming out Troggoths will become part of that army. As a result we expect new warscrolls to be coming

Only exception is the Troggoth Hag, she's possibly the best destruction hero atm.

Thanks! I hadn't thought about them getting new warscrolls. Good call my man! 

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24 minutes ago, Blitzel said:

Thanks! I hadn't thought about them getting new warscrolls. Good call my man! 

See the new video we are getting an entire Troggoth ARMY! I'm definitely getting them so will have to see how they fit in Ironjawz.

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On 12/29/2018 at 7:30 AM, Malakree said:

See the new video we are getting an entire Troggoth ARMY! I'm definitely getting them so will have to see how they fit in Ironjawz.

Oh I can’t wait for these. They look so awesome! Is it going to be the same book as the Gitz? 

 

Also - your Ardboyz in the above - how are you equipping them?

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6 hours ago, Timcz said:

Oh I can’t wait for these. They look so awesome! Is it going to be the same book as the Gitz? 

 

Also - your Ardboyz in the above - how are you equipping them?

My general rule with ardboys is a boss has -1 rend choppa, then a drummer, icon and banner per 10 which have -1 rend and the rest with shields.

This results in

4-6, 7-13, 10-20 (7-23 is also reasonable)

The shields really do increase the survivability and by having the command squad at the front with the offensive loadout you get the benefits of 2h and the shields without losing combat potency.

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Any opinions on a 2,000 pt IJ list to play against a SCE Sequitor/Evocator Gavbomb list that won't get completely obliterated? Even if I still lose, I'd like to have fun. I'm thinking of running Malakree's double cabbage Weirdfist list or the alternate single cabbage + rogue idol and cogs list. At least it can be swingy and potentially hilarious. Either way, I'm tired of the more traditional Ironfist + Bloodtoofs list or even the 90+ arboy ardfist list, which seems incredibly boring as an orruk player. I want to smash the heck out of stuff, not simply become one massive tarpit (despite me finally owning 90 arboys). If I can't find anything fun to play with (almost) pure IJ, then I may end up slowly evolving into a GA:Destruction list a la Donal's "You can't touch this" list on THWG. 

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/you-cant-touch-this/

 

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2 hours ago, Nogginnocker said:

Any opinions on a 2,000 pt IJ list to play against a SCE Sequitor/Evocator Gavbomb list that won't get completely obliterated? Even if I still lose, I'd like to have fun. I'm thinking of running Malakree's double cabbage Weirdfist list or the alternate single cabbage + rogue idol and cogs list. At least it can be swingy and potentially hilarious. Either way, I'm tired of the more traditional Ironfist + Bloodtoofs list or even the 90+ arboy ardfist list, which seems incredibly boring as an orruk player. I want to smash the heck out of stuff, not simply become one massive tarpit (despite me finally owning 90 arboys). If I can't find anything fun to play with (almost) pure IJ, then I may end up slowly evolving into a GA:Destruction list a la Donal's "You can't touch this" list on THWG. 

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/you-cant-touch-this/

 

Guna be honest, I'm going to be starting up a trogg based gloomspite gits army. 

I love my ironjawz and will continue taking the weirdcabbage list to tournaments for the foreseeable future, as I don't want to rush painting the gits army.

From a highly competitive aspect we *can* beat top armies with that list but it's hard and requires a lot of precise abuse of rules to pull off. I think for anyone who doesn't get totally engrossed in the minutiae of rules applications ironjawz won't be fun or competitive.

Get the gits book and look at transferring over to it through the GA Destro route. Since I don't waaagh you can use double cabbage with a broader GA army to very similar effect.

Allegiance: Stoneklaw's Gutstompas
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
Zarbag (160)
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)
Orruk Warboss On Wyvern (240)
- Boss Shield
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet 

Battleline
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
40 x Moonclan Grots (260)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
60 x Gitmob Grots (270)
- Spears & Shields

Units
7 x Zarbag's Gitz (0)
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Wounds: 181

warboss with ethereal is 4s rerolling unreadable while the larger body count lets you use the cabbage as a scalpel. Two spear chukkas for the squishy character hate!

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8 hours ago, Malakree said:

Guna be honest, I'm going to be starting up a trogg based gloomspite gits army. 

I love my ironjawz and will continue taking the weirdcabbage list to tournaments for the foreseeable future, as I don't want to rush painting the gits army.

From a highly competitive aspect we *can* beat top armies with that list but it's hard and requires a lot of precise abuse of rules to pull off. I think for anyone who doesn't get totally engrossed in the minutiae of rules applications ironjawz won't be fun or competitive.

Get the gits book and look at transferring over to it through the GA Destro route. Since I don't waaagh you can use double cabbage with a broader GA army to very similar effect.

Allegiance: Stoneklaw's Gutstompas
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
Zarbag (160)
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)
Orruk Warboss On Wyvern (240)
- Boss Shield
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet 

Battleline
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
40 x Moonclan Grots (260)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields
60 x Gitmob Grots (270)
- Spears & Shields

Units
7 x Zarbag's Gitz (0)
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Wounds: 181

warboss with ethereal is 4s rerolling unreadable while the larger body count lets you use the cabbage as a scalpel. Two spear chukkas for the squishy character hate!

what is your list weirdcabbage, if it is possible to know it, the truth that I am about to leave my ironjawz aside for something more '' competitive '', not having many options and see how gw renews whole armies and leaves us lying It rages, thank you for sharing your list

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With the new gloomspire git’s army coming, i’ll Probably be transferring to a Grand alliance destruction army. I already do that occasionally for fun so I can bring more troggs, giants and artillery, and this release looks to be bringing a whole lot of punch to GA destruction.

Im hoping a troggherd combined with a battalion of ironjawz will be a lot of fun, and the new troggs might provide some long needed hitting power Maybe some of those new armored squig riders as a Calvary replacement for gore gruntas.  I just wish Ardboys were battleline for GA destruction. I hate fielding 30 orruks just to satisfy the battleline requirements.

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I’m thinking that looking at what’s been shown so far for the gitz ( magic, monsters, cheep chaff, glass hammer units etc ) 20 ardboyz and a warchanter to buff for 400 pts May make the perfect ally choice. 

Also as I’m sitting on plenty of gobbos trolls n squigs it might not be as expensive as I was fearing the book n spells should be enough to learn the army n not altogether abandon the IJ’s

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With what the Gloomspite Gitz book is doing (which I freaking love!), what do you guys think is the future of the Ironjawz?  Do you think they’ll be merged with other orruk factions?  Could the fluff support that?

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1 hour ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

With what the Gloomspite Gitz book is doing (which I freaking love!), what do you guys think is the future of the Ironjawz?  Do you think they’ll be merged with other orruk factions?  Could the fluff support that?

As a new army for AOS my belief is that they wont be merged due to aestetics and being an elite army. Also those greenskins are kind of old, I dont think they will get updated. I think there will be 1-2 units, (perhaps  with multikit options), 1 hero, a new tome and a couple of endless spells. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Arkanaut Admiral said:

With what the Gloomspite Gitz book is doing (which I freaking love!), what do you guys think is the future of the Ironjawz?  Do you think they’ll be merged with other orruk factions?  Could the fluff support that?

I would personally want the ironjaws to be there own faction, getting more expanded unit options and progression in the lore. I would also like to see ardboys go, now this isnt a rules thing, i just hate seeing them next to brutes. They look ancient! The shadespire ones look amazing but i would prefer them if they were an elite option for normal greenskins when they get updated (whenever that is).

I would like to see a hammer and shield brute unit, Adolescent mawcrushas who have yet to develope wings ridden by brutes, the brutes split up into 2 unit types, daul hand weapons with boss choppa (with better rules for that weapon) who get a bonus taking on hordes and the spear/halberd variant who are better at taking on larger creatures. I would also like to see a megaboss on grunta, a shaman on either a wyvern or smaller mawcrusha, a battle standard bearer of some sorts and armoured trolls.

Edited by Ekrund Oath Splitters
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