AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Mayple]

@Alezya

It is used in the hero phase(which is really wonky, as it really should be the combat phase, but as you say; it is not specified, and is therefore used in the hero phase)

The wording is, paraphrased, "if the orruk warboss uses this ability, all orruk units within 12" in your next combat phase are frenzied.."

Key wording to pay attention to is "..in your next combat phase.." - meaning if you somehow used the command ability in your combat phase, it would only activate on your next turn's combat phase, and not the one you're currently in. Hence why it can only be activated in the hero phase to make any sense.

Compare it to Verminus skaven warlord's command ability for an example of a similar command ability that is used, and activates in the combat phase (any combat phase)

Note that both of these abilities only last for a single combat phase. Not until next hero phase

 

Tl;dr: It must be used in the hero phase.

[Malakree]

22 minutes ago, Alezya said:

He says: As it is not specified, and as Gordrakk's rule says (in your hero phase, I dunno why he picked Gordrakk's ruling ), I can use my command ability at the start of the combat phase for the use of Waaagh ability. 

I say; As it is a command ability and as it is not specified otherwise, you have to use it at the hero phase and you make the unit counts at the start of the combat phase (as it is written).

If it's not specified its the hero phase. You use it in the hero phase then the effect happens at the start of the combat phase.

You're correct.

[tom_gore]

@Malakree I want the dice you used to roll only 4+ for the Foot of Gork

[Ravinsild]

57 minutes ago, Alezya said:

Hi there, 

We have quite a discussion about when to use the Warboss' command ability:

He says: As it is not specified, and as Gordrakk's rule says (in your hero phase, I dunno why he picked Gordrakk's ruling ), I can use my command ability at the start of the combat phase for the use of Waaagh ability. 

I say; As it is a command ability and as it is not specified otherwise, you have to use it at the hero phase and you make the unit counts at the start of the combat phase (as it is written).

 

Who's right? 

You are. Use it at the hero phase. Then after movement phase etc.... at the beginning of combat phase count up all models in range of the ability. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Ravinsild

[Alezya]

Wrote Warboss, but wanted to say Megaboss  But as the wording is the same, I believe the argument and point are still valid? 

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

Oi lads

I have a tournament coming up this weekend at PAX Unplugged. The one-day event will see all three games played with Chamon's Realm of Battle rules, but its realm spells are not allowed. Realm Artefacts, however, are ok. The event is also adhering to WYSWYG

Because of this, I have two lists I am pondering 

LIST #1

LEADERS
Gorfang da Immortal (140) Orruk Megaboss - General - Command Trait : Brutish Cunning - Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm
Jazood (80) Orruk Warchanter - Artefact : The Boss Skewer
Jazood (80) Orruk Warchanter
Nogoog (120) Orruk Weirdnob Shaman
Zofka Redfang (140) Orruk Warboss - Great Waaagh Banner - Allies
Sculpa the Cowardly Menace (80) Moonclan Grot Shaman - Allies

UNITS
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360) - Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180) - Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180) - Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140) - Pig-iron Choppas

BATTALIONS
Ironfist (180)

TOTAL: 2000/2000   EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1   WOUNDS: 150

LIST #2

LEADERS
Gorfang da Immortal (140) Orruk Megaboss - General - Command Trait : Brutish Cunning - Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm
Jazood (80) Orruk Warchanter - Artefact : The Boss Skewer
Jazood (80) Orruk Warchanter
Nogoog (120) Orruk Weirdnob Shaman
Zofka Redfang (140) Orruk Warboss - Great Waaagh Banner - Allies
Keeb (or Geeb) (80) Fungoid Cave Shaman - Allies

UNITS
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360) - Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180) - Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140) - Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140) - Pig-iron Choppas

BATTALIONS
Ironfist (180)

ENDLESS SPELLS
Quicksilver Swords (20)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

TOTAL: 2000/2000   EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1   WOUNDS: 150

I have found success with my non-Maw Krusha list so I am running it again. I use the list for board control and combat efficiency with all the re-rolls. 

However, with all the games being set in Chamon, and the decent potential of playing chaos armies, I figured the Quicksilver Swords would be a cunning spell to use for my casters who are restricted to their own spells. Throw in some Soulsnare Shackles, and it could prove to be a more tactical list. It also becomes a bit faster with a units of Brutes out and add another unit of Gore Gruntas. 

Granted, I've never used Endless Spells and know that the QSS could just as easily be used against me

What would you megabosses suggest?

[Scurvydog]

On 11/25/2018 at 9:01 PM, Malakree said:

So much more fun than bloodtoofs and the weirdnob with average 36/42" threat range on the foot just lets you delete key problems before they can do anything.

This sounds interesting, but unless I am missing something, you will still at best get +2 to cast, unless you play with terrain rules and can somehow be near arcane terrain for another +1 from turn 1. 

 

With the vortex the shaman is unable to move and he still only casts foot on a 8+ with maximum bonus, so less than 50/50 for it to even work. With the shaman being unable to move, your entire army also needs to be fairly stationary to benefit this tactic,  So you must have rolled glowing hot dice to get so many mortal wounds, as an average foot, if near your entire army will get +4 mortal wounds, so average 7 wounds per stomp, with less than 50/50 to cast it and then 50/50 chance for it to stomp again, the odds of doing those 50ish mortal wounds with it one turn are just incredibly low.

 

The opponent also really needs bad placement to get hit by the puke more than once and any good alpha strike list or with any sniping capability should be able to rather reliably shut down the shaman. Again unless I missed something here :s

[Superninja]

@Gorks Pokin' Finger

I like the gryph feather charm but I wonder if you would be better served with the Thermalrider cloak from Aqshy? +4 move and fly.  The megaboss will have an easier time keeping up.  Either one is good though.

I think I am partial to the 1st list.  I love brutes on the table and this list features them.   150 wounds in both lists is good.

The 2nd list is also nice, the 2 sets of goregruntas give you more tactical options, more ability to lock down/pin back.   Spells are fine.  Broche keeps saying that Geminids are a great option and I think he is right.   They would be a great  spell to hinder your opponents fighting ability as you are charging in.   Scary if used back on you though. (Though we do have the tools to counteract it with the our +1 to hit and Waagh)

Edited November 27, 2018 by Superninja

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

This sounds interesting, but unless I am missing something, you will still at best get +2 to cast, unless you play with terrain rules and can somehow be near arcane terrain for another +1 from turn 1. 

 

With the vortex the shaman is unable to move and he still only casts foot on a 8+ with maximum bonus, so less than 50/50 for it to even work. With the shaman being unable to move, your entire army also needs to be fairly stationary to benefit this tactic,  So you must have rolled glowing hot dice to get so many mortal wounds, as an average foot, if near your entire army will get +4 mortal wounds, so average 7 wounds per stomp, with less than 50/50 to cast it and then 50/50 chance for it to stomp again, the odds of doing those 50ish mortal wounds with it one turn are just incredibly low.

 

The opponent also really needs bad placement to get hit by the puke more than once and any good alpha strike list or with any sniping capability should be able to rather reliably shut down the shaman. Again unless I missed something here :s

Yep it's +2, getting the Arcane terrain is obviously huge but it's alright even without. It's why game 3 the green puke did the majority of the work, I wasn't getting the continual stomps. Ironically being entirely in terrain with a Balewind gives the weirdnob a 3+ save and is at -1 to hit from shooting, combine with the massive bubble wrap and the only game he died he was the last model in my entire army to die. The balewind is definitely a key part of the build as having 2 spells a turn makes a huge difference.

As to the army being stationary, obviously the weirdfist portion is, use the 30 ardboys to bubble wrap him and that's their entire job the whole game. Generally I had the GG's just tagged in at 10" and they were my variable unit. Either staying with the block or pushing up to support the cabbages, it's why I went with 3x3 rather than a 4th unit of Ardboys. On the other hand the cabbage portion of the list was definitely not stationary. While I didn't use them optimally the broader strategy is definitely right. Having them both with an artefact worked exactly how I wanted it to, they have the speed and punch which the rest of our army doesn't.

Honestly I suspect it's a similar win rate to a good Bloodtoofs list, which is to say that IJ are bad atm and we are primarily out to steal wins. Whether you do that with Aetherquartz or Foot of Gork is much of a muchness. I enjoyed the list way more, that's my takeaway and the big thing I want to stress. Right now if you are playing IJ and want a hyper competitive version, it's probably got Sequitors or Eels in the list. What I'm doing is putting out fun lists which you can 3/5 with or even 4/5 if you get lucky and play amazingly.

[broche]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Honestly I suspect it's a similar win rate to a good Bloodtoofs list, which is to say that IJ are bad atm and we are primarily out to steal wins.

I think your list is strictly better than bloodtooth except maybe againts Nagash list (but event there you can stay out of dispel, and foot is not easy to dispel when it goes off). Bunkering around the weirnob and using 2 mawkrusha as sattelite is actually very good. Only thing might be some scenario where objectives are wide, might be hard to cover.

[ShaneHobbes]

I have a 2500 pt tournament this weekend and thought I'd try using some of what I've read here, namely Malakree and using the Weirdfist to snipe with spells.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Miasmatic Blade 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies
Troggoth Hag (380)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Battalions
Weirdfist (180)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2440 / 2500
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 460 / 500
Wounds: 175
 

I can't decide if I wanna use the Rogue Idol over the Troggoth Hag for the extra +1 to cast. Hag has a really fun spell and super durable with some fun stuff though. 

Also torn on artifacts: Dopple/Miasma, Gildenbane/Alchemical Chain, Ignax's Scales/Cleansing Brooch

I really need to pick up a second maw krusha.

Edited November 28, 2018 by ShaneHobbes

[Superninja]

If you are going to use the weirdfist and have the points for a rogue idol, I would go with that

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Superninja

[broche]

23 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

I can't decide if I wanna use the Rogue Idol over the Troggoth Hag

tough choice, but i think Rogue Idol will serve you better. Make your Foot/puke much more reliable, and it's a good melee monster.  +1 free bravery is never bad.

[Malakree]

So rogue idol definitely makes the weirdnob far more reliable, the difference between 8+ and 7+ is huge.

If you are going with that list I would split one of the units of ggs so you are 10x10x10x3x3 as the weirdfist acts as a single more stationary block. You don't want 6 ggs tied up with it when 3 is good enough.

Depending on if you have the points, I didn't, and models I would seriously consider swapping your fist ggs for 2" range brutes. The extra threat/models is very nice.

Biggest thing for me is ensuring that you aren't completely locked into one big expensive block. It's why I wanted the double cabbage rather than the idol. You have a massive anvil which is designed to turtle on an objective, what's lacking there is the mobility aspect.

If you want to use the hag I'd say she needs thermalrider cloak, at that point daubing or ignix scales on the cabbage is obv.

[CaptainSoup]

I have an avid Ironjaws players at my FLGS who always brings the pain and tends to win our tournaments hand over foot (of Gork) by simply charging in turn one and destroying all in his path with ardboys and gore gruntas. He tends to go against a variety of armies like LoN, IDK, all flavors of demons, SCE and the occasional lizard and destroys them all in quick fashion. 

Considering that and the fact that the meta right now is pretty combat focused, you would think Ironjaws would have some sort of a resurgence on the GT scene, but that doesn't really seem to be the case.

My questions for you guys are these:

How does one typically counter a movement/charge heavy IJ list? You can try to turtle or go for the objective but at the end of the day they will still show up to your door turn one. What else am I missing here?

What do you guys think of Ironjaws in this current meta? Do you think they will see a resurgence? Are they already popular but I just can't see it? Are their GHB changes just not good enough for them to be viable on a competitive format? 

Thanks for reading!

[ShaneHobbes]

I'll give the rogue idol a go over the hag. 

6 hours ago, Malakree said:

So rogue idol definitely makes the weirdnob far more reliable, the difference between 8+ and 7+ is huge.

If you are going with that list I would split one of the units of ggs so you are 10x10x10x3x3 as the weirdfist acts as a single more stationary block. You don't want 6 ggs tied up with it when 3 is good enough.

Depending on if you have the points, I didn't, and models I would seriously consider swapping your fist ggs for 2" range brutes. The extra threat/models is very nice.

Biggest thing for me is ensuring that you aren't completely locked into one big expensive block. It's why I wanted the double cabbage rather than the idol. You have a massive anvil which is designed to turtle on an objective, what's lacking there is the mobility aspect.

If you want to use the hag I'd say she needs thermalrider cloak, at that point daubing or ignix scales on the cabbage is obv.

I guess my thinking with a big block of GGs was to sit on points but yeah having them in the weird fist is counterproductive. I'll try swapping in brutes unfortunately I don't have any equipped with the gorehackas.

I wouldn't be able to give the Hag the cloak if I did use her though, right? Allies cant take artifacts I thought. 

[Malakree]

34 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

I guess my thinking with a big block of GGs was to sit on points but yeah having them in the weird fist is counterproductive. I'll try swapping in brutes unfortunately I don't have any equipped with the gorehackas.

The GG's are fine in the weirdfist, you just don't want blocks of 6 in it. Swap to 6x3 with 3x3 in the Weirdfist, gives approximately what you are after while allowing the bigger unit to skirmish around the map next to your cabbage.

In my head I always see the army being split into multiple parts, the weirdfist portion is purely stationary and the job of every model in it is to form a 10" buffer zone around the Weirdnob. The rest of you army then has to be highly mobile in order to compensate for the huge wad of points you have which is tied up and is conceptualised as smaller cavalry blocks which can operate more independently. When you look at it like this you can probably see why I'm not so keen on the Rogue Idol, it also goes into the Weirdfist portion which is just concentrating my army even more seriously. Ironnically at 2.5k you can actually spare the 400 to make it even more vicious.

The ideal Weirdnob block would actually be 10x10x10x10x10 all Ardboys with shields. This gives you the most bodies, wounds and meat for that single block, it's easily the equivalent of 80 skeles if you can get it on an objective before you enter siege mode. 

Given you don't have a 2nd cabbage I'd look at something like this.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Behemoths
Rogue Idol (400)

Battalions
Weirdfist (180)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2480 / 2500
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 480 / 500
Wounds: 185

Your 2nd arm is a little weaker but the 50 Ardboys is going to make your weirdfist a ****** to do anything about.

Or if you have the GG's

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)

Behemoths
Rogue Idol (400)

Battalions
Weirdfist (180)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2500 / 2500
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 400 / 500
Wounds: 186

This still has the 3x3 GG's in the weirdfist and only has 2 heroes but you gain the 6x6 GG's to act as your second mobile unit.

34 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

I wouldn't be able to give the Hag the cloak if I did use her though, right? Allies cant take artifacts I thought. 

****** you are correct, so used to seeing her run in GA:Destro. Good catch.

[broche]

3 hours ago, CaptainSoup said:

He tends to go against a variety of armies like LoN, IDK, all flavors of demons, SCE and the occasional lizard and destroys them all in quick fashion. 

I think the fact you ommit DoK is one of the reason he is winning so much. Ironjawz are decent performer against most of those army (but i would rate Idoneth and maybe SCE as tricky still), but DoK really is the puzzle. The just do everything better than IJ and are cheaper. In a meta with no DoK, Ironjawz would be a solid choice.

Hopefully with the FAQ i anticipate some nerf so it might reequilibrate the field .

[Malakree]

4 hours ago, CaptainSoup said:

I have an avid Ironjaws players at my FLGS who always brings the pain and tends to win our tournaments hand over foot (of Gork) by simply charging in turn one and destroying all in his path with ardboys and gore gruntas. He tends to go against a variety of armies like LoN, IDK, all flavors of demons, SCE and the occasional lizard and destroys them all in quick fashion. 

Considering that and the fact that the meta right now is pretty combat focused, you would think Ironjaws would have some sort of a resurgence on the GT scene, but that doesn't really seem to be the case.

My questions for you guys are these:

How does one typically counter a movement/charge heavy IJ list? You can try to turtle or go for the objective but at the end of the day they will still show up to your door turn one. What else am I missing here?

What do you guys think of Ironjaws in this current meta? Do you think they will see a resurgence? Are they already popular but I just can't see it? Are their GHB changes just not good enough for them to be viable on a competitive format? 

Thanks for reading!

Screen. That's it. You put a basic screen up and the IJ Alphastrike dies on it's ******.

A line of 40 skeletons 3" ahead of the rest of your army so that he wipes them out and can't pile in past the line. You then use Magic and the fact he's crippled in his own turn to neuter his army, spend a CP to bring your skeles back, bog him down in never ending combats and grind him into dust.

With SCE and Deepkin you can set the core parts of the army up off the table then bring them on to snipe his key bits. DoK, Idoneth, SCE, LoN should all have a pretty solid win rate against the list you are describing if they are built properly. Sounds like it's mostly just poor deployment.

[CaptainSoup]

5 minutes ago, broche said:

I think the fact you ommit DoK is one of the reason he is winning so much. Ironjawz are decent performer against most of those army (but i would rate Idoneth and maybe SCE as tricky still), but DoK really is the puzzle. The just do everything better than IJ and are cheaper. In a meta with no DoK, Ironjawz would be a solid choice.

Hopefully with the FAQ i anticipate some nerf so it might reequilibrate the field .

Well I wouldn't say "omit" exactly, we just don't have any playing the army right now. I think its an interesting perspective since the rest of Destruction is in such a bad state right now, I thought IJ was tossed in with them. 

5 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Screen. That's it. You put a basic screen up and the IJ Alphastrike dies on it's ******.

A line of 40 skeletons 3" ahead of the rest of your army so that he wipes them out and can't pile in past the line. You then use Magic and the fact he's crippled in his own turn to neuter his army, spend a CP to bring your skeles back, bog him down in never ending combats and grind him into dust.

With SCE and Deepkin you can set the core parts of the army up off the table then bring them on to snipe his key bits. DoK, Idoneth, SCE, LoN should all have a pretty solid win rate against the list you are describing if they are built properly. Sounds like it's mostly just poor deployment.

I would be inclined to agree on the deployment issue. I guess with Ironjaws you should spread your chaff more and make sure you're priority units aren't stacked too closely to the chaff so they won't get dragged into the fight. 

[ShaneHobbes]

@Malakree

 

I've been wanting to try something like Weirdfist/Rogue Idol mostly because one particular opponent I face in tournaments is a Nurgle player and he's the only one I'm winless against. I feel like if I beat him then I couldn't care how I do against everyone else

He has so many -1 to hit shennangins with 60+ plaguebearers I wanted to try crushing his backline heroes with MWs. What I'd give to have a Beastmen Chimera...

Unfortunately I only have 30 Ardboys atm. I do have 30 Brutes though.  I know most feel ardboyz are better but Brutes for me are just so fun. That and i have a lot more fun painting them then another 20-30 Boyz.

[Malakree]

19 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Unfortunately I only have 30 Ardboys atm. I do have 30 Brutes though.  I know most feel ardboyz are better but Brutes for me are just so fun. That and i have a lot more fun painting them then another 20-30 Boyz.

To be honest that's the best, and only, reason to be playing ironjawz atm. Build a list you find fun and enjoyable then play it.

There's a guy who plays darkling covens at tournaments, he went 2/5 at chrimbobo which is as good/better than people playing "meta" armies. This is entirely because he knows his army and plays it well.

The 1/5 to 3/5 bracket is as much to do with basic mechanics as it is your list.

You want a lulz list specifically to try and derail the nurgle player, using brutes.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- General
- Trait: Brutish Cunning 
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies

Battleline
20 x Orruk Brutes (720)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Battalions
Gorefist (190)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 140 / 400
Wounds: 151
 

The gorefist is there to get across the board and pin his army in awkward ways. Brutish Cunning is for much the same reason.

3 warchanters with reroll 1s to hit and wound should allow your brutes to delete anything they touch.

No idea how/if it would work in practice but theoretically you should be able to counter army wide debuffs by concentrating your power into one block you can buff just as hard.

The other option is to ally in some gitmob arti pieces, against mass -hit doomdivers will be fantastic as they essentially ignore it.

[Andrew G]

26 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Screen. That's it. You put a basic screen up and the IJ Alphastrike dies on it's ******.

A line of 40 skeletons 3" ahead of the rest of your army so that he wipes them out and can't pile in past the line. You then use Magic and the fact he's crippled in his own turn to neuter his army, spend a CP to bring your skeles back, bog him down in never ending combats and grind him into dust.

With SCE and Deepkin you can set the core parts of the army up off the table then bring them on to snipe his key bits. DoK, Idoneth, SCE, LoN should all have a pretty solid win rate against the list you are describing if they are built properly. Sounds like it's mostly just poor deployment.

4", you can still pile-in even if there's not an enemy unit within 3" the turn you charge. Tabled a  lot of guys who make this mistake. 

Good screening does kill the T1 alpha strike, but against perfect screening you just play traditional Alphastrikes like any other combat IJ list, i.e the "waves" approach. Force them to go first, use just enough units/waaagh to effectively take down those screens, hedge against the double turn by keeping the Waaagh Sources/Hammers safe, but really just pray for double turn and and that you  have enough CP left to actually kill the important stuff in T2.  If you don't get the T2 initiative, hope your durable first wave of units ties up enough to allow the Waaagh! Sources/Hammers to survive. 

Not arguing that if a Gorefist player just commits every unit to a screen that's positioned correctly and blows all his CP that he'll lose, but I honestly feel like it currently has the best chance vs. Sacrament played correctly. I  could argue it's an 'ardfist, but in my experience it's a tougher matchup.

Do agree with the SCE/ Deepkin part though, honestly think deepstrike armies are a much harder counter than Death/ DoK, at least for the lists I play. 

[Andrew G]

29 minutes ago, Malakree said:

To be honest that's the best, and only, reason to be playing ironjawz atm. Build a list you find fun and enjoyable then play it.

There's a guy who plays darkling covens at tournaments, he went 2/5 at chrimbobo which is as good/better than people playing "meta" armies. This is entirely because he knows his army and plays it well.

The 1/5 to 3/5 bracket is as much to do with basic mechanics as it is your list.

You want a lulz list specifically to try and derail the nurgle player, using brutes.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- General
- Trait: Brutish Cunning 
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies

Battleline
20 x Orruk Brutes (720)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Battalions
Gorefist (190)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 140 / 400
Wounds: 151
 

The gorefist is there to get across the board and pin his army in awkward ways. Brutish Cunning is for much the same reason.

3 warchanters with reroll 1s to hit and wound should allow your brutes to delete anything they touch.

No idea how/if it would work in practice but theoretically you should be able to counter army wide debuffs by concentrating your power into one block you can buff just as hard.

The other option is to ally in some gitmob arti pieces, against mass -hit doomdivers will be fantastic as they essentially ignore it.

I've actually been experimenting with this basic idea, Gorefist first wave w/ Brute second wave. Bigger Brute unit to leverage rampaging destroyer and just speed boost the hell out of the unit so it's actually in position to engage T2.

Think this idea might actually have some gas. 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

4", you can still pile-in even if there's not an enemy unit within 3" the turn you charge. Tabled a  lot of guys who make this mistake. 

As someone who only plays ironjawz, a 3" gap between the bases plus the larger than 1" base size is where I make the error, but yes the 3" gap is to stop the pile in haha