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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

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If theres one thing that always bothered me about IJ is that, are they suppose to be a horde army in the fluff? Sure every army fields hundreds to thousands of their troops, I'm sure khorne usually has plenty of blood warriors (as oppose to the tabletop where you'll see the mandatory 10 man tax for gore pilgrims...and thats it!) but even the unit description of Orruk Brutes says

" Brutes fill out the warclans in a seemingly endless tide of green skin"

Do you think they'll get more horde-y whenever they'll get updated?  As oppose to the more elite army they are currently. Granted big base hordes are a little annoying to position...

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I dream with a new battletome with summoning rules that allow us to bring new fresh orcs to the board, such as the beasts' battletome does.

 

It represents, moreover, the overwhelming number of orcs that always come to a good fight. 

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30 minutes ago, broche said:

some guys have a list with 2 x 20 brutes, that's quite hordy to me ! :D

So 1 unit of skeletons, or 2/3rds a unit of grots.

I realise apples and oranges but it's not "horde" like. I do wish they would add a max unit discount to brutes/ggs.

Ardboys - 160/400

GGs - 140/460

Brutes - 170/600

Would be nice to have an incentive to take max size units. Unlike right now where it's barely worth going up to 30 even with ardboys.

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400 pts for 30 ardboys would be way to cheap. They did some mistake in the past with units discount, i suspect we will see less and less of this. It's hard to justify a discount when the full units is effective. 

discount to Sequitor for exemple is completly ridiculous, as most of unit damage outpout comme from 9 models (and you can just keep 1 guys with shield to get full bonus) . The idea of giving discount is that big units loose  of it's efficiency cause some of the model won't attack. 

I think ardboys are currently a good reference at 160/450 actually. You get a small discount, but not overwhelming to compensate the lost of board coverage and efficiency (that can be compensate with shield)

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It's currently a 30 point discount for the max size. Honestly it might aswell not be there, right now ardboys are just as efficient at 20 as they are at 30, the only reason I'd add one to my ardfist list is because the ardfist itself an odd number and it stops the 1990 stuff which drives me up the wall.

It used to be a full 90 points off the last 10 which was amazing, at 30 for those 10 it's garbage.

When you consider sequitors are 400 for 20, chainrasps/skeletons are 280 for 40 and plaguebearers are 320 for 30 it really puts into perspective just how overcosted ardboys are at 450. Hell even Moonclan grots are better at 360 for 60.

Imo 400 would be fine but an argument could be made for 420 or even 430. Ask yourself this, if ardboys were 400 for 30 would we suddenly be dominating top tables?

Simple fact is that our units are not efficient at their current points values, don't have the special rules to carry them and we don't have the ridiculous allegiance abilities.

Currently our ideal unit sizes are 1 or 2 blocks for all of them. The waaagh! actively disincentivises us to use anything but msu, our battalions actively promote msu and our large bases sizes/short ranges also cripple anything but msu.

Even for the ardfist you want at least 2 units of 10 you can play aggressively with so that your single activation to get the 30 block back has those 2 units there for not only extra efficiency but to forcibly alter where the 30 block comes back.

Every single one of our units loses efficiency past the second purchase. I would take 20-10 over 30 for my ardboys in 95% of lists.

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i can definitly picture myself on top table with this list made in 2 seconds:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
Ardfist (170)

Total: 2050 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 187
 

I'm amazed how poeple use cheap analogy to analyze a model cost. We can all agree that sequitor are stupid (17% discount while they should get 0%). I  don't think solution is giving the same discount to ardboys. Average discount for max units is around 8% -12%.  One of the best discount you get in destruction is in bonesplitterz (120/300) but savage orruk are currently slightly overpriced by 10 (they should be 110/300) and morboys  (don't scale so they do loose a lots of efficiency in big mob) . 

This year, they did remove the small discount to Fyreslayer, discount that was a mistake in the first place (as model 21-30 are kind off your best model)

So yes ardboys are on  the cheap side of discount. However they do scale a bit (thanks to shield) and have a relatively high output per model/area, even with minimal buff. Maybe 440 would be right, and 420 the bare minimum. But i don't see any scandal in 450 either. The fact you use 10 or 20 in 95%  of your list (i do the same) is not really irrelevant, Discount is just incentive to slightly favor max size unit, but they need to be given with caution as they can easily imbalance the game. 

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@broche

So interesting question, as obviously this is relevant for balance purposes, is the issue with that list the cheap Ardboys or the Ardfist? (Personally I would have preferred they make the Ardfist battalion 1cp for 1 unit the same as for death. That's a different issue.)

This discussion also does a good job of showing how overcosted Brutes are at 180 (Ignoring the obvious comparison of Evocators at 200). When attempting to concoct a list which runs close to competitive we are dropping them in favour of just putting more bodies/wounds on the board. 

Realistically, after GBH18, Ironjawz are having the BCR issue in that we cannot put enough wounds/models on the board to compete on objectives while also being able to put up a fight against our opponents. I think that's why we will see the huge switch over to Moonclan the moment they are released, which sadly is exactly the GW marketing strategy.

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i think that people arguing that 400 would be too cheap really haven't ran the meta gauntlet that much. At current cost you have 0 incentive to ever bring a 30 block. It reduces units for Waaagh, reduces the tactical flexibility of objective capping. and the discount is BS. 30 points is nothing to an elite army. how bout Nemarti, any stormcast, baby dwarves, the list goes on. 

Ardboyz need a max reduction or they will not be viable at 30.

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Well one issue at Brutes using a horde discount is that it'll be very hard keeping everyone "wholly within" range for buffs! Many stomcast players have somewhat turned against 20 man sequitor units that were popular at the launch of 2.0 (they're still around for sure but no longer the auto include people thought they were). Not to mention the Brute Boss is capped as a unit leader. 

2.0 in general usually seems to favor MSU/10-20 man units more especially 2.0 style wholly within buffs (seriously Khorne and Nurgle would be so different under 2.0 range rules). Like Bestigors in BoC who many people seem to agree are far better running 3 10 man groups than 1 30 man group despite the horde discount (even if you ignore ambushing). And it's not like bestigors are bad, they're one of the best beast units (leaving Gors in the dust). Or Putrid Blightkings where things tend to get dicey if you go beyond 10 models (outside of some crazy Spume ambush).

And yea the Waaagh needs to be reworked to favor large units, maybe it should count the wounds or something (like the number of orruk models, with multiwound models counting as 2 or 3 models each depending if they're savage/ard/brute)

So yea not sure if more models in a unit will do much unless some crazy number buffs are added (like at +10 models, everyone gets 2 extra attacks or something).

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Most max size units taken right now are usually no brainer and 30-40 life strong (Fury, Plaguebearer, skeleton). A max sized unit around 300 seem to be the sweet spot as is still leave you enough room to cover the board. 

We saw some list with block of 30 arboys taht seem decent enough IMHO. But ardboys is really a mid-range units. 30 ardboys will kill mostly everything or hold an objective for a long time. Problem is that it's 450 pts, and with there low mobility they are kind of stuck of where they are. Bottom line, Ardboys at 160 are currently a great bargain.

Factor in the fact that Waaagh ability need you to have lots of units, that make 30 not that appealing, not really the fact that discount is too low. Also most of list include a Maw Krusha (cool model, but expensive). So if you take MK + 30 arbodys, that already 1000 pts that cover 2 space on the board.

I think exploring more list withouth the maw krusha would open more possiblity for max strenght ardboys units

for exemple, take the following list:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Orruk Warboss On Wyvern (240)
- Allies
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
Ironfist (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 380 / 400
Wounds: 178
 

merging the 60 ardboys in two units have some advantage:

1) you save 60 pts, so an extra CP, and maybe a triumph.

2) Big units are easier to buff, and help trigger smash and bash

Is it better? i don't know, but it's cleary arguable.

Brutes and gruntas, you'll rarely see max size units. Unless they reduce the max size by one block. 15 brutes at 160 per block might be interesting. But yeah brutes are slightly on the expensive side right now. I think Brutes had more value when Waaagh was actually limited (that might happen again)

Personnally what i would like to see short term would be:

- Ardboys by 5 (already suggested earlier) open possibility 

- Gordrack command  once per turn instead of once per game (maybe keep the once per game on a bataillion). That would actually make him worth is point.

- Migthy waaagh be a bit less restrictive (maybe something with model instead of units) but maybe less stackable

 

 

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If we are reworking the Waaagh! it should be completely changed.

1 CP 
Map wide
Once per Megaboss at the end of the charge phase.

All Ironjawz gain +1 attack until the end of the following combat phase. In addition roll a d6 when you use it.

  • On a 2+ You may select an Ironjawz unit to gain an additional +1 attack.
  • On a 4+ That unit also gains +1 damage with all it's weapons.
  • On a 6+ That unit may also pile in and attack immediately as though it were the combat phase. A unit may only do this once per turn.

Prophet of the Waaagh! - You may select 2 different Ironjawz units instead of just 1 to gain the extra bonuses from this characters Waaagh!

Forces multiple Megabosses if you want to trigger multiple Waaagh! allows us to use it in the enemies turn and generally makes it more tactical for both players while presenting a huge potential threat. Removes the ridiculous positional and unit requirements as well, actually rewarding larger units rather than MSU.

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I would also be fine with count total number of units on the board, but +1 attack in 10-15''.  That way you could justify mutliple megaboss

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6 hours ago, Malakree said:

If we are reworking the Waaagh! it should be completely changed.

1 CP 
Map wide
Once per Megaboss at the end of the charge phase.

All Ironjawz gain +1 attack until the end of the following combat phase. In addition roll a d6 when you use it.

  • On a 2+ You may select an Ironjawz unit to gain an additional +1 attack.
  • On a 4+ That unit also gains +1 damage with all it's weapons.
  • On a 6+ That unit may also pile in and attack immediately as though it were the combat phase. A unit may only do this once per turn.

Prophet of the Waaagh! - You may select 2 different Ironjawz units instead of just 1 to gain the extra bonuses from this characters Waaagh!

Forces multiple Megabosses if you want to trigger multiple Waaagh! allows us to use it in the enemies turn and generally makes it more tactical for both players while presenting a huge potential threat. Removes the ridiculous positional and unit requirements as well, actually rewarding larger units rather than MSU.

Why not change the Waaagh to - for each Ironjaws unit in your army that is on the battlefield gain one extra attack.  These attacks can be distributed to any Ironjaws unit in any combination.  So if you have 7 units, you gain 7 extra attacks.  You could then decide to give all 7 to 1 unit or split them between several units.  It also offers options for both msu and large units.  You get more extra attacks with msu, but the extra attacks could be more effective if put onto larger units.  It would also be in keeping with the fluff of the Waaagh energy and a Bosses ability to control it.  

Meant to add that this should be non-stackable, which I suspect is going to happen anyway.

Edited by Aelfric
forgot to add last sentence

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1 hour ago, Aelfric said:

 So if you have 7 units, you gain 7 extra attacks.  You could then decide to give all 7 to 1 unit or split them between several units.  It also offers options for both msu and large units.  You get more extra attacks with msu, but the extra attacks could be more effective if put onto larger units.  It would also be in keeping with the fluff of the Waaagh energy and a Bosses ability to control it. 

While that'll help large ard boyz units, I think it still emphasizes MSU Brutes since it gets incredibly hard to fit large units of 40mm based units. Plus more brute units means more bosses and more attacks on a boss means more Boss Klaw+Brute Smasha attacks (which would also invalidate any reason to take the boss choppa)

Though it does sound hilarious to stack those on a Maw Krusha. Imagine if you had 7 units, then put it all on the maw krusha for 28 extra attacks (4 weapons x 7 attacks).

 

I think the only way for Horde Brute sizes to be usable if they somehow had an INSANE horde discount of like 40pts or something per unit increment.

Edited by kenshin620

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@Aelfric

A cabbage, 5 warchanters then MSU ggs.

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 164
 

14 extra attacks to distribute how you want and no issues with having enough units to hold objectives. Where ever your opponent tries to fight suddenly gets more attacks than we can trigger on an explosive turn without the rng.

9 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

I think the only way for Horde Brute sizes to be usable if they somehow had an INSANE horde discount of like 40pts or something per unit increment.

170/600 would be 80 points on MSU. It would make them 150 per 5. I think 600 for 20 would be a great price point even without the reduction, 20x20x20 brutes would come in at 1800 points.

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4 minutes ago, Malakree said:

170/600 would be 80 points on MSU. It would make them 150 per 5. I think 600 for 20 would be a great price point even without the reduction, 20x20x20 brutes would come in at 1800 points.

Seeing 60 brutes would be a sight to behold!

Plus it would line GW pockets nicely. And they like heavy pockets!

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I’d also be happy to see Bonesplitterz and IJs combine (like Legion of Nagash and Nighthaunt) but I may be the only one here on this haha

BS would easily fill the horde and shooting necessity of the IJs and their abilities working on each other would bring them up a tier I feel 

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I prefer the separate of IJ and Bonesplitterz, I think they each have a unique identity. Plus Legions of Nagash, a book made up of 4 allegiances (well soulblight is a weird one) and GA Death, didn't absorb Flesh Eaters (though they did absorb half of nighthaunt, but NH and Nagash are very interconnected in the fluff anyways)

Even Total War Warhammer separates Normal Orcs and Savage Orcs into separate factions (unless you confederate them together).

And those poor Greenskinz still need a home anyways!

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checking top list of B&G, pretty depressing... Death took 1-2-3, otherwise you have your usual suspect at the top: DoK, Idoneth, Stormcast... Sylvaneth sneaked 1 top 10. Even going down, you don't see much else.  Meta is really skewed right now, hopefully next FAQ will mix the card a bit.

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19 minutes ago, broche said:

checking top list of B&G, pretty depressing... Death took 1-2-3, otherwise you have your usual suspect at the top: DoK, Idoneth, Stormcast... Sylvaneth sneaked 1 top 10. Even going down, you don't see much else.  Meta is really skewed right now, hopefully next FAQ will mix the card a bit.

The problem isn't going to be fixed by an FAQ, they just got the points wrong.

One thing you have to take into account is that the good players have stopped playing IJ, and destruction in general, which skews the rankings even more seriously than normal. @Sangfroid and @Chris Tomlin are probably the only two competitive Ironjawz players and they are playing other factions which means our rankings are even more artificially suppressed. @Donal being in 8th speaks to this point by showing a good player can still get a solid finish even if the faction itself is struggling. That said, I hadn't checked the final rankings since the event and jesus it's bad. Two relevant finishes across the GA being 8th and bonesplitterz at 35, third destruction at 80th with beastclaw.
I will say though that I was playing my ironjawz and made a ton of mistakes.

Spoiler

 

Game 1 I got a little bit screwed by the orb bounces but I still could have played much better and he completely deserved to win, it did reinforce just how overcosted the Cabbage is though, dragon lord at 340 points, Aventis at 360 both just made me sad.

Game 2 I made a ton of mistakes and more importantly made some very crucial ones. Got greedy during my Waaagh! turn and the brutes failed to kill a necromancer because I didn't allocate enough attacks, meant his block of 40 skeles got to attack my cabbage before it activated, had it done so the unit wouldn't have killed it.

Game 3 I played the Khorne dragon and Waaagh! it into the floor. 28 wounds in 1 combat phase then I got the double.

Game 4 was vs a Nighthaunt, stalled it out then exploded him with a turn of +11 attacks across everything. He activated 4 banshees before I finished my army and his was basically wiped out. 

Game 5 was supposed to be vs Byron Orde with his double phoneix, Treelord, an SoJ tenebrael shard with a horde of skinks. We agreed to call it before setup because I had run out of steam after starting 6am Friday and he said he wouldn't mind getting a headstart so he arrived home before 11. I did claim the secondary due to how easily I could score it but took no Kill Points.

 

I think the whole weekend the only game I couldn't have won was the 5th, combination of the battleplan and his list just dumpsters me and anything I can attempt to do. The SoJ Tenebrael is the real kicker because it means the cabbage has to have a 1.1" bubble wrap around it until the Waaagh! turn occurs which essentially neuters the whole list.

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