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AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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I think that if we go Bloodtoof we need yes or yes the cog (and a wizard, at least). And more bodies.

 

From my point of view, we have now 3 kind of lists that can do well at tournaments:

 

-Bloodtoofs, specially with cog. That's what I'm playing, but with less Gruntas and more Ardboys and some Brutes.

-Ardfist and crazy spam of Ardboys.

-Bloodtoofs with Grunta's spam.

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@Malakree I am curious about the kind of list you would make if you had the model count. What would your Ardfist look like and why would that be more effective than the standard Bloodtoof list?

I would assume it would do more with the objective camping rather than being able to kill stuff off the board.  I think Ardboys are great at soaking wounds and reliably getting into combat but find them rather pillow-fisted. How would you cope with a blender unit like Grimghasts x30.  Just more bodies?

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I play Bloodtoofs because I still don't have enough Ardboys to play another thing (I dislike the Grunta's spam).

 

Specifically, talking about wizards I play with a Weirdnob and intend to play with a Fungoid also. I haven't discovered and didn't invent anything new, just playing what it seems it works. I play with 20 Ardboys, 15 brutes and 3 gruntas (10-10 Ardboys - 10 Brutes -5 Brutes - 3 Gruntas). I need moar Ardboys, and I want to buy 2 boxes of them (30 Ardboys moar).

 

And, in my opinion, playing Ardfist I need still more Ardboys, maybe close to 70-80. A future idea that I have with them is to play Megaboss (or 2), a couple of wizards (either fungoids or weirdnob, I don't care the focus of MD because I will play 4-5 characters of IJ) and a couple of Warchanters, and the rest, an Ardfist battalion with all the Ardboys I can include.

 

 

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@Luzgurbel Bloodtooth never really did well at any tournament. Every player that have success with Ironjawz are not playing bloodthooth.

They most competitives list we saw were @Andrew G Ardfist and Gorefist. He also did a deep analysis of pitfall to avoid when playing Ironjawz (don't overspend on character, ensure you have enough bodies to compete objectives)

1. Number of wounds: There's no hard floor, but you should aim at at least 140. 

2. Board coverage: You need enough units to cover/hold/grap a majority of objectives. Most list play 5 units (aka bloodtooth) so it's ok BUT

3. Units strenght: I think it's were most list are failing. You need AT THE VERY LEAST one double strenght units (20 ardboys, 10 brutes, 6 gruntas) but ideally you want two. Single srenght units are ok to hold an objectives, but 3 pigs/10 ardboys/5 brutes die two quickly and will not dish enough damages to grab a well defended objectives even with +6 attack. However, 20 ardboys with +4 attack and two warchanter buff will shred almost anythings.

4. Artefact: Currently brooch is by far the best artefact you can take. There's nothing close. So no brooch = suboptimal list (which can be ok depending on context). So if you want to win, take the brooch (until it's FAQed)

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1 hour ago, GoblinKing said:

@Malakree I am curious about the kind of list you would make if you had the model count. What would your Ardfist look like and why would that be more effective than the standard Bloodtoof list?

I would assume it would do more with the objective camping rather than being able to kill stuff off the board.  I think Ardboys are great at soaking wounds and reliably getting into combat but find them rather pillow-fisted. How would you cope with a blender unit like Grimghasts x30.  Just more bodies?

I'd probably start with something like this.

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: 

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Brutish Cunning 
- Artefact: 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
- 29x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 1x Big Choppas
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
- 19x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 1x Big Choppas
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
- 19x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 1x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 9x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 1x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 9x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 1x Big Choppas

Battalions
Ardfist (170)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 203

Then work from there. Basic Idea is to swamp the board with a bunch of super hard to remove wounds. 2 wounds, 4+/6++ is a fricking nightmare to get rid of for any army, Big Choppas are on Boss since they have to roll separately anyway.

I included a Footboss for a few reasons.

  1. Threatens the Waaagh! this is important imo because that unit of 30 Ardboys could suddenly become 3+/3+/-/1 with 5 or 6 attacks each. The fact you have no rend is irrelevant when you can throw out over 150 attacks. (see the Kunnin Rukk)
  2. 7 wounds with 3+ makes him our single tankiest foot hero, with cover he has a 2+ save. 
  3. With an artefact he becomes one of our primary objective holders, ironically I would use him with the fungoid as objective holders.
  4. Actually decent at chewing through chaff, gives us something slightly less "pillowfisted"
  5. Gives us a general who we can confidently move forward with Brutish Cunning.

Equally the artefact I included was very considered. I think the thermalrider cloak on the warchanter is going to be key because of how the Ardfist trigger is worded now. Due to the fact there is no "trigger window" we can use it during the movement phase AFTER we move the warchanter, this lets us use that movement to artificially impact where the Ardboys will come on, something which can easily let us steal games against opponents who don't expect it. Combined with a CP run we have a 14" flying move to get him where he needs to be for the summons.

The Footboss clearly needs to use the other artefact so that he can hold objectives. There are a bunch of good options here, 4++ vs mortals, various mortal wound output, Daubing of Mork, Destroyer or Exile torch, I'd need to play with it to work out which I prefer though randomly banishing a giant enemy hero seems like it could be a laugh.

A fungoid and weirdnob bring your objective heroes up to 4, which is pretty important for those missions. The fungoid is obvious, a ton of survivability and reasonable casting capability, however normally I really dislike the weirdnob, this would be one of those occasions however where it's potential can really shine, putting 93 Orruks on the board with 32 bases makes it way easier to trigger the +2 and soaking the mortals is less crippling. It also combines to be a huge threat with the realm spells, Bridge of shadows a unit of 20 Ardboys right next to an objective or put Inferno blades on them. Ofc Foot of Gork remains the ol' faithful of "I need a miracle right now".

I guess the final point is Brutish Cunning. While I am tempted by a 2+ reduce rend by 1 Footboss in cover (throw in a nice Mystic Shield and Armour of Gork for Stardrake levels of obnoxious) the potential that Brutish Cunning gives to really mess with the opponents charge phase is unbelievable. Tag all those huge threat units with a 3" ardboy and watch them cry, then remove them in the combat phase when you suffer casualties, no you can't have those Evocators MW me into the floor. It also really hates on Nighthaunt who get bonuses on some units when they charge and instantly attack on a 9+ charge roll. Since the list is based around tarpiting the hell out of your opponent a good Brutish Cunning will easily be game winning.

So yeah, an objective based list with some hilarious potential and great options which plays into the one thing destruction still does well.

EDIT: 

9 minutes ago, broche said:

4. Artefact: Currently brooch is by far the best artefact you can take. There's nothing close. So no brooch = suboptimal list (which can be ok depending on context). So if you want to win, take the brooch (until it's FAQed)

I'd say this is true for Bloodtoofs, it's why I don't want to play the list anymore. I suspect we have some other lists which won't use it but they will be more focused around things like the Ardfist or Weirdfist.

Edited by Malakree
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32 minutes ago, Malakree said:

I'd say this is true for Bloodtoofs, it's why I don't want to play the list anymore. I suspect we have some other lists which won't use it but they will be more focused around things like the Ardfist or Weirdfist.

For Ardfist, nothing come close. For Weirdfist, maybe you would want to protect better your shaman but even there. If you start with 1 CP, it will have net you 4 CP in average at the end of round 3. That's 200 pts. Combined with the fact that we have a stackable command ability, i can't see any reason to first pick anything else.

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1 hour ago, broche said:

For Ardfist, nothing come close. For Weirdfist, maybe you would want to protect better your shaman but even there. If you start with 1 CP, it will have net you 4 CP in average at the end of round 3. That's 200 pts. Combined with the fact that we have a stackable command ability, i can't see any reason to first pick anything else.

1/3 when you spend a command point.

4 total by turn 3 gives an average of around 1.33 extra. This then adds .41 etc. Giving you an approximate 2ish (cba to do the exact math so overshot a bit) which is around 90 points.

How are you getting close to an average of 4cp or 200 points? At best it acts as a ~1.6 modifier on (starting cp+round) from a purely mathematical perspective.

When you consider that the list I made above, for example, isn't interested in actually killing most opponents suddenly the fact you get 2 extra waaagh! off on turn 3 is meaningless. Especially since you likely used the cps on other things anyway.

I feel like an artist list which has aetherquartz as king should probably be a standard ironfist, you are playing for the single explosive turn rather than extended meatgrinder which an ardfist can excel at.

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5 hours ago, broche said:

Still not seeing anything better really. Give you too much option (reroll charge, immune battleshock or extra attack)

The way I look at it. Take Waaagh! off the table, assume we can't use it, does the aetherquartz still hold a vast amount of dominance. 

When you look at the most prevalent armies at the moment we need to look at how any given list is attempting to beat them. Against death for example an ardfist/weirdfist isn't going to win that game by drowning the skeletons in attacks. At which point the broach is alright but not the only choice as it is in bloodtoofs. 

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5 hours ago, Malakree said:

Against death for example an ardfist/weirdfist isn't going to win that game by drowning the skeletons in attacks

i think Weirdfist isn't gonna win agains dead at all ;) One of the reason i went away from Weirdfist short term.

Let's look at our choice from a generic perspective: 

1. Battleshock protection (golden tooth, boss skewer): Both good item, but you're just better off with the brooch as you can do inspiring presence and recover the CP over time

2. Offensive (damage, rend boost, sword of justice): Can be counterbalance by more attack. Only exception might be the sword of justice cause of the mortal output, but there's not much a Maw krusha with +4 attack and +1 to hit won't kill already.

3. Defensive item (ignax scale, daubing of mork, -1 to hit): I think this is where it's the most arguable. A live Maw krusha is worth more than a dead Maw krusha. Biggest danger for Cabbage is rend and mortal wound. For rend you can take ironclad, for mortal best is ignax scale, but Mirrored cuirass and Daubing can do the job as well. 

So to point 3, i think i would always choose brooch as the first item, as killing stuff is often the best offence. I think +4 attack is the sweet spot on the first wave (no matter the list) and to reach +4 attacks early (round 1 or 2) you need the brooch. Then you still have good chance to go another +2 attack in the turn after to finish off the stuff. 

 

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21 hours ago, Malakree said:

 

Eqaually the artefact I included was very considered. I think the thermalrider cloak on the warchanter is going to be key because of how the Ardfist trigger is worded now. Due to the fact there is no "trigger window" we can use it during the movement phase AFTER we move the warchanter, this lets us use that movement to artificially impact where the Ardboys will come on, something which can easily let us steal games against opponents who don't expect it. 

 

Can I get a reference for the "trigger window" ruling? I noticed the FAQ on 'ardfist doesn't specify  a phase for the abilities' usage, but I've just assumed that means it's hero phase only. Assuming we can use the ability in the movement/charge phase, I completely agree that thermalrider's value shoots way up. It would definitely make me consider a  2k list wwith thermalrider/ignax scales over the 1900 Broach/Cuirass list I'm currently running. 

That said, I still think broach+prophet is superior in an 'ardfist.  To answer your question directly, is the two extra waaghs on turn 3 worth it in the scenario outlined? Yea, absolutely worth it, especially considering each Waagh has a roughly 30% chance of generating an extra attack w/ prophet.  It's going to allow you to space out your Waaghs, get through anvils/screens in a single  turn, and still have the juice to deal with everything else afterwards.  I find that 'ardfist without broach+prophet just gets hungup on troops too long before their heroes get mortal wounded to death.
 

 

Edited by Andrew G
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@Andrew G yes i think you can trigger Ardfist at anytime

@Luzgurbel I think it depend of your expectation. I think it can't win a tournament for sure.   I also think the 120 pts can be better invest elsewhere. The biggest drawback of bloodtooth is that it force you to take 5 units and a MK, so you often end up with 4 or  5 min-size units.  Also the third artefact is not that usefull. For exemple, let's take Andrew blootooth he claim he have success (MK, 2 x warchanter, 30 ardboys, 2 x 3 gruntas, 2 x 5 brutes). I think dropping the bloodthooth and merge either the Brutes or Gruntas and either take an extra chanter, fungoid, or Ironskullz boys is just srictly better

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@Malakree with your Ardfist list, I’d consider making the Warchanter with Thermalrider Cloak the General with Prophet of da Waaagh. That they you’d have access to two Waaagh command abilities 

And Ignax’s Scales on the Megaboss. I’ve had too many games where he got magic’d Off the board before he did anything 

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22 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

@Malakree with your Ardfist list, I’d consider making the Warchanter with Thermalrider Cloak the General with Prophet of da Waaagh. That they you’d have access to two Waaagh command abilities 

And Ignax’s Scales on the Megaboss. I’ve had too many games where he got magic’d Off the board before he did anything 

Yeah, I'd have to play the list in order to work out what artefacts I want to use. I was torn between Ignax and something more extreme like the Exiles torch. 

The reason not to make the WC the general is because it's throwing all your eggs into one basket. You want to play really defensively with the WC, keep out of LoS etc. so that the opponent has to actually deal with the Ardfist in their face. That's why you put the Thermalrider on the WC, so that you can quickly reposition them for the summon if you need to.

At that point having the 10" waaagh! on it is just putting your most crucial piece in a vulnerable position. Thus it makes more sense to have the Footboss be your general, since you want to be playing aggressively instead. If I was going to go Prophet with a character it would actually be the weirdnob not the WC.

EDIT: Just to reiterate, this was based on a hypothetical situation of "If you had the models" so my experience is limited to 3 games of a 10/10/10 Ardfist and more generic IJ lists.

Edit2: @broche the one point I would make there is that I don't consider the boss skewer to be battleshock protection the same as I would the golden toof.

+1 bravery is as much about protecting you from all the various bravery attacks as it is battleshock. It's why is should have had it as relic 3, bravery 9 is incredibly hard for them to attack you on and that goes to bravery 11 on a megaboss, it goes a long way to negating all the -1 bravery they throw at you.

Edited by Malakree
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what's the drawback of low bravery beside mindrazor in current top list? I remember LoN have some bravery debuff but i don't remember them having side effect

One of the big issue with Ironjawz for me it's the waaagh. the 10'' inch is  very limiting considering you need 6 ironjawz units to not miss it. It's better with the Maw krusha with his 15'' (so 36'' span with his big base), but in some battle plan when you need to split force, it can really become a pain. 

It's one of the reason a like Gordrack even if he is expensive, it's it's ability reach. Greenskin warboss is cool too (9 move wit h12'' unrestricting waaagh) but fragile for it's cost (and he can't take artefact). I'm toying with a list without the Cabbage but the wyvern (really cost efficient), i think it could really open build option.

Edited by broche
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21 minutes ago, broche said:

what's the drawback of low bravery beside mindrazor in current top list? I remember LoN have some bravery debuff but i don't remember them having side effect

Overwhelming Dread also gives -1 To Hit and if cast on a 9+, the effect doubles (so -2 to Hit and -2 Bravery)

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16 hours ago, broche said:

Andrew G yes i think you can trigger Ardfist at anytime

Can you tell me waht part of the rules you are making this assumption based off? I was under the impression that anytime  a Command Ability didn't state the phase it was triggered in, then it had to be triggered in the hero phase. Otherwise we could actually Waagh in the combat phase when we know exactly how many units are within range and whether it was going to go off or not.

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@broche Do you really believe that 120 points for an extra cp, an extra artifact, +1 run (for Ardboys), +1 charge (making +4 for Ardboys) and +2 Bravery is bad?

 

Furthermore, you have said that MK is better for his Waaagh range. 

 

I mean, I a master of nothing, little I have played and less is what I know, but I see the cost of Bloodtoof and its restrictions (5 units in the Ironfist is not a restriction at all) and I find it very reasonable.

 

Yeah, the MK is really overpriced (a LoC who can fight well, it can be -2 to hit, spams spells costs 60 less), but I assume that the whole army is overpriced.

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1 hour ago, pocket44 said:

Can you tell me waht part of the rules you are making this assumption based off? I was under the impression that anytime  a Command Ability didn't state the phase it was triggered in, then it had to be triggered in the hero phase. Otherwise we could actually Waagh in the combat phase when we know exactly how many units are within range and whether it was going to go off or not.

It is not a command ability.

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1 hour ago, Luzgurbel said:

@broche Do you really believe that 120 points for an extra cp, an extra artifact, +1 run (for Ardboys), +1 charge (making +4 for Ardboys) and +2 Bravery is bad?

Our troops are not overpriced. I don't think bloodtooth is uncompetitive, i just think there is better list. For exemple I consider this a not bad list (answer criteria for a good list)

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 151
 

But i prefer this: 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
Ironfist (180)

Total: 1930 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 155
 

or even this:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Ironfist (180)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 160
 

CP can be bought for 50 pts (and bet on triumph at same time) so you're paying 70 pts for +1 charge and +2 bravery.  Those are not bad boost, and if bloodtooth could be taken alone, it would certainly worth it. However it's not 120 pts. It's 180 + 120. Put you at 300 spent with 0 board presence. Considering Maw Krusha is still sligthly overpriced, it's a lot of point. And the third artefact if not worth as much as Artefact 1 and 2. 

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5 minutes ago, Soupster18 said:

Silly question folks  but if I am taking Ironist and Bloodtoofs battalions, with 3 characters being the additional IRONJAWZ units

Is that a one drop army or am I being totally stupid 

Yes it's a 1drop.

 

11 hours ago, broche said:

But it has nothing to do with bravery i mean? you take -x to hit no matter your bravery?

Death has several things which target bravery, terrorist being the obvious one but also things from lady olinder. I just know I was attacked on it multiple times over the weekend, even if it's not in top lists we are going to be in the 3/5 range and facing a ton of death.

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