AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[broche]

Average speed is not necessery what you want to check here. It's more about threat range and possibility. Don't forget that with Cog you're giving 4'' to your opponent as well.

Let's break down Ironjawz raw threat  range

brutes: 12

ardboys: 14

Gruntas: 17

Krusha: 20

I think DoK is a good comparaison: Fury have roughly (a bit less in fact) 17 threat range in round 1 and 18 in round 2, so about Gruntas. They have Morathi who is really fast (even faster than MK) but the rest is relativly slow (ie cauldron)

So baring a really lucky rolls, DoK will not engage T1 but should T2. But so will Ironjawz.

Ironjawz does not have Deep strike, that i think is a greater weakness. And Cog does nothing to solve that.

But they have Mighty destroyer that is quite interesting. If you hit MD, MK can now reach an impressive 32'' in round one. Pig can reach 26''. Now that open the possibility of engaging something in T1 if you go first. Depending on the matchup, using Krusha or Pig as anvil and grab objectives can be a winning strategy. 

Finally we always have Gorefist. Gorefist is an alphasrike, so Cog might help for the extra reach, but again you need to assess if you need the extra 4''. You already move 15 + 9 + 3d6 charge (with Grodrack), a 35'' average range with the Pig.  I've never tried the Gorefist, but i suspect problem with it is more when opponent screen off effectivly, or have reserve (hence denying you the alpha strike). 

 

[Raoiley]

I just dropped cogs for the reasons mentioned above. 

Interesting though, even a wide screen can often be gone around by a gorefist. 

 

15 Inch pre move, 9 inch regular move can probably get you around the corners. 3d6 charge +1 for ironjawz is statistically another 12. That's probably pretty close to getting around the flank and taking someone by surprise. Or, alternatively forcing them to deploy very defensively. 

[Luzgurbel]

I agree with that statement. We are as slow as other armies are, but those armies can have nice shooting or magic. We have poor magic and barely nothing that shoots.

 

For that reason I find mandatory to have the Cog, because we need to engage as soon as posible against shooting armies. Yes, other melee armies like DoK are also bonused but... They are top, we don't.

[broche]

There is really little heavy shooting army at the moment. Mixed order is the one that shoot the most.

I agree that you want to be in combat ASAP with Ironjawz. Question is does Cog help that, considering it's at least a 140 pts investment (and there's no garantee it goes off). 

To engage in round 1.1, you need to move at leas 18'' on some scenario, 24'' on most. The only way to acheive that on a consistent basis is with Gorefist. It's also somwhat likely if you invest in both Ironfist and Cog and Gordrack, but can easily be denied by deploying further. So at this point, Gorefist is just superior.

If your general is a Megaboss (and most your character IJ) then you have good chance that Gruntas or a Maw Krusha could engage on round 1.1 as well (could worth it depending on scenario set up what your facing ect.).

To engage in round 1.2, you're dependent of what your opponent did if he played first. If he played chicken then you won't be able to engage him, but you'll grab the objective. If he move to the objectives, then he should be in range anyway.

In round 2 you have move to the center of the board and you should be threatening all of the friendly and neutral objectives. So unless you're playing a shooting army cowering in his back row, Cog is not much usefull here. But meanwhile you're scoring.

I almost never play Ironfist and Cog, and always been in combat with most units by end of round 2. If it doesnt give me extra combat phase, for me it's not worth the investment.

 

[Hot Peanut]

On 10/22/2018 at 7:37 PM, broche said:

I've never tried the Gorefist, but i suspect problem with it is more when opponent screen off effectivly, or have reserve (hence denying you the alpha strike). 

You are rigth, I played the following army:

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Gordrakk The Fist of Gork (580)
- General
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork  
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)

Battalions
Gorefist (190)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1930 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117
 

And in nearly every game the opponent wput a meatshield in front of his whole army with a hammer unit behind it, so when I got in with Gorefist and charge and so on. So the whole tactic pulverised in that first row of something. I just love Gordrakk and the GG models are just amazing, so I still thinking about a list with them, we will see. 

[broche]

@Hot Peanut You still have some trick agains screen, but i think you need to play a bit different.

1. How far is the juicy stuff behind the screen. If it's less than 4'' (or 5'' if you play Hacka), you can reach it with pile in

2. How tough if the screen(s)

So depending on thoses, you should play differently. 

A. If screen is fragile and stuff is less than 4'' away: send all gruntas with maybe +3 attack from Warboss to whipe it, then pile on second row.

B. If screen is fragile and stuff is more than 4'' away: send 6-12 gruntas with maybe +1 attack from Warboss to whipe it. Since stuff is far you're not expose to counter attack. Use Gordrack and others gruntas units to grab neutral objectives and keep Gordrack for a later turn.

C. If screen is too tough to kill (fyreslayer, Sequitor, bastilladon ect.) , you're best play is probably sending 6 gruntas with Mystic shield and just pin it for a turn or 2 and score point on the rest of the board.

That said, i can see none of those scenario where Cog is usefull. However a geminid could prove much usefull in scenario B and C. Someone from this forum seemed to have good sucess with Gorefirst don't remember his pseudo.

[Luzgurbel]

I have a game tomorrow, against Tzeentch, an I'm going to play the following:

 

-Maw Krusha.

-Weirdnob.

-Warchanter.

 

-2x10 Ardboys.

-5 Brutes.

-10 Brutes.

-3 Gore gruntas.

 

-Bloodtof.

-Cog.

 

Which realm do you suggest to me? And which items? The trait I was thinking on Ironclad.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Luzgurbel

[velocitydog]

Hi all, I'm a very noob IJ player with some very noob questions about some of the army abilities.  It seems like I'm missing something.  Apologies if this has been covered in earlier posts.

Regarding Mighty Destroyers you have three options:

1) Make a normal move if >12" away from enemy unit - Question: Since this occurs in the Hero phase does the unit also get to move in the Move phase?

2) Pile-in - Question: What's the benefit of this?  Why is this better than  waiting until the Combat phase to pile-in?

3) Attempt to charge: Question, Again, what is the benefit of this?  Why not wait to move and then charge to get even closer to an opponent?

Regarding Smashing and Bashing:

The benefit if I understand it correctly is it allows two of your units (or potentially more) in sequence rather than taking turns with your opponent.

Thanks in advance for any advice!  

[Scythian]

Da Blockjawz wuz rockin’ da taybul dis weekendz!!! Waaaaaaaagh!!!

[Andrew G]

3 hours ago, velocitydog said:

Hi all, I'm a very noob IJ player with some very noob questions about some of the army abilities.  It seems like I'm missing something.  Apologies if this has been covered in earlier posts.

Regarding Mighty Destroyers you have three options:

1) Make a normal move if >12" away from enemy unit - Question: Since this occurs in the Hero phase does the unit also get to move in the Move phase?

2) Pile-in - Question: What's the benefit of this?  Why is this better than  waiting until the Combat phase to pile-in?

3) Attempt to charge: Question, Again, what is the benefit of this?  Why not wait to move and then charge to get even closer to an opponent?

Regarding Smashing and Bashing:

The benefit if I understand it correctly is it allows two of your units (or potentially more) in sequence rather than taking turns with your opponent.

Thanks in advance for any advice!  

1) Yes, you can move the unit again later in the Move phase

2) The benefit is you can pile-in twice.  Mighty Destroyers doesn't restrict the normal Combat phase pile-in.

3) The only real benefit here is on the Mawkrusher w/ his Destructive Bulk ability. If you're lucky you can clear a low wound unit  with Destructive Bulk  in the Hero phase, still move in the Move phase (assuming you killed off the unit), and repeat the process in the Charge phase. 

4) Yep, that's exactly what Smash and Bash offers.

[Andrew G]

8 hours ago, broche said:

@Hot Peanut You still have some trick agains screen, but i think you need to play a bit different.

1. How far is the juicy stuff behind the screen. If it's less than 4'' (or 5'' if you play Hacka), you can reach it with pile in

2. How tough if the screen(s)

So depending on thoses, you should play differently. 

A. If screen is fragile and stuff is less than 4'' away: send all gruntas with maybe +3 attack from Warboss to whipe it, then pile on second row.

B. If screen is fragile and stuff is more than 4'' away: send 6-12 gruntas with maybe +1 attack from Warboss to whipe it. Since stuff is far you're not expose to counter attack. Use Gordrack and others gruntas units to grab neutral objectives and keep Gordrack for a later turn.

C. If screen is too tough to kill (fyreslayer, Sequitor, bastilladon ect.) , you're best play is probably sending 6 gruntas with Mystic shield and just pin it for a turn or 2 and score point on the rest of the board.

That said, i can see none of those scenario where Cog is usefull. However a geminid could prove much usefull in scenario B and C. Someone from this forum seemed to have good sucess with Gorefirst don't remember his pseudo.

Yea, exactly right on the thought process of playing Gorefist.  IMO regular Mawcrusher with the Aetherquartz/Prophet of Waaagh CP engine is just strictly better though.  It allows you to throw Mirrored Cuirass on the MawKrusher which makes him way more survivable than Big G, allows you to space out your Waaagh! usage in case of effective screening (cheap screens across his entire army frontage w/ units more than 4" away),  and you don't have any " Screen is too tough to kill moments" anymore because you can generate an extra 10+ extra attacks on the first turn. 

[broche]

to 2), i would just had it also give you an extra (small) chance to get into combat. Let say you have brutes 10'' away from an enemy units. If you move and charge, you need a 5 or more on two dice (thanks to +1 to charge), so 83.3% chance of success (wich is quite likely). If you trigger migthy destroyer, you get an extra chance (but will need a 9, only 27.78% of sucess), so it give you a 88% chance of completing your charge in the end, sligtly better than your initial 83.3

[Malakree]

4 hours ago, velocitydog said:

Hi all, I'm a very noob IJ player with some very noob questions about some of the army abilities.  It seems like I'm missing something.  Apologies if this has been covered in earlier posts.

Regarding Mighty Destroyers you have three options:

1) Make a normal move if >12" away from enemy unit - Question: Since this occurs in the Hero phase does the unit also get to move in the Move phase?

2) Pile-in - Question: What's the benefit of this?  Why is this better than  waiting until the Combat phase to pile-in?

3) Attempt to charge: Question, Again, what is the benefit of this?  Why not wait to move and then charge to get even closer to an opponent?

Regarding Smashing and Bashing:

The benefit if I understand it correctly is it allows two of your units (or potentially more) in sequence rather than taking turns with your opponent.

Thanks in advance for any advice!  

1. Yes, this is a free move which follows all the rules as a normal move for example you can run but doing so will prevent you from charging in the movement phase.
2. You can pile in a second time in the combat phase, lets you reposition an extra time in combat.
3. Just because you roll the charge you don't need to make it. 
   You can trigger Destructive Bulk from the Maw-Krusha with it.
   If the unit then dies to magic/shooting you can charge again
   You can retreat and charge with a general fungoid CA.
   You can charge a unit of 30 Ardboys, then run and retreat in the Movement phase to allow you to cover a massive amount of distance/setup a screen.
4. Yes, you immediately activate your next unit, with High Waaagh! stacks running this will often mean you trigger your entire army before your opponents first activation.

[velocitydog]

Thanks for the replies!  Couple follow-up questions. 

If I have the Ironfist battalion can I also use that in the Hero phase? So 4" MD + D6" IF + 4" regular move + Charge? 

Can a single megaboss call multiple Waaagh!s assuming I have enough command points?

For the double pile-in I can see that being the most useful with, say, large units of Ardboyz as it allows you to wrap more models around the enemy unit.

Malakree, I'm not sure I get the benefits of the Hero phase charge other than with the cabbage.  I thought if you fail the charge roll the unit doesn't move.

Your #4 sounds horrifying...I can't wait to try it!!!!!!

Thanks again for your help, it is greatly appreciated!

vdog

[Hot Peanut]

8 hours ago, Andrew G said:

IMO regular Mawcrusher with the Aetherquartz/Prophet of Waaagh CP engine is just strictly better though.  It allows you to throw Mirrored Cuirass

What do you mean with that? Aetherquartz is clear, but Prophet of Waaagh CP engine? 

[Malakree]

32 minutes ago, velocitydog said:

Malakree, I'm not sure I get the benefits of the Hero phase charge other than with the cabbage.  I thought if you fail the charge roll the unit doesn't move.

You can choose NOT to take it even if you succeed. It's worth rolling it even if you decide not to use it. One thing you can do is MD with a run, then the second MD to charge since the MD charge overrides the "you can't charge if you run"

32 minutes ago, velocitydog said:

If I have the Ironfist battalion can I also use that in the Hero phase? So 4" MD + D6" IF + 4" regular move + Charge? 

Yes, Ironfist is just d6" free movement. 

32 minutes ago, velocitydog said:

Can a single megaboss call multiple Waaagh!s assuming I have enough command points?

Yes, my record is +13 attacks for every weapon across my entire army. Cabbage wiped a unit of 20 sequitors who were at a 2+ save on it's own.

EDIT:

3 minutes ago, Hot Peanut said:

What do you mean with that? Aetherquartz is clear, but Prophet of Waaagh CP engine? 

I believe they are referring to the Aetherquartz+Prophet combo. You generate a ton of Waaagh! off the Aetherquartz then get to maximise your attacks from the Waaagh! (through 6s) using the prophet.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Malakree

[zombiepiratexxx]

I'm looking at picking up my first AoS army soon. I've been playing Warhammer Underworlds and 40k (since 2nd edition). I've been a fan of old fantasy but am returning to GW after a hiatus. 

I'm currently looking at Ironjawz and possibly Sylvaneth as my favourites of the "new" forces. I'm likely to be going up against SCE, Nighthaunt or maybe Fyreslayers depending on how one guy goes, Seraphon and possibly LoN. I'm looking for a force that won't roflstomp the enemy but also won't get roflstomped itself. I'm not going to any tournaments so I'm not considering that but am wondering how some of the "older" battletomes hold up against the latest forces out there? 

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

but am wondering how some of the "older" battletomes hold up against the latest forces out there? 

Answer is they don't. Against that list of opponents you will be running the weakest of the armies, you can take wins against all of them but it will be an uphill battle with IJ. The only exception is if the SCE player goes sacrosanct, if he does that you will basically never beat him. Currently we are waiting/hoping for a LoN style tome that will update our warscrolls to a modern standard. 

Sorry to be a downer but I feel it's better to lay out the truth in it's harshest form so that you don't have unrealistic expectations. 

Most of us play IJ because of a love for the faction, those of us who actually want to place (@Chris Tomlin @Sangfroid) are playing other armies atm.

[velocitydog]

+13 attacks?!?!??!!  I'm guessing this had something to do with the Aetherquarz Brooch or whatever artifact lets you roll to see if you don't lose a spend command point.  That's incredible. 

You mention run on MD and then charge with a second MD.  How do you get two MD's? And a run isn't an MD option. Not saying your wrong, only that I'm clearly confused.  Thanks for your patience!

[Superninja]

You roll for mighty destroyers for each Ironjawz hero you bring.  You can give that movement to the same unit if they are in range each time.  The movement it provides is a "normal move".  When you perform a "normal move", you can run.  You will not be able to charge later in the turn.  Then in your movement phase, you could move and run again.

[Oreaper84]

1 hour ago, velocitydog said:

+13 attacks?!?!??!!  I'm guessing this had something to do with the Aetherquarz Brooch or whatever artifact lets you roll to see if you don't lose a spend command point.  That's incredible. 

You mention run on MD and then charge with a second MD.  How do you get two MD's? And a run isn't an MD option. Not saying your wrong, only that I'm clearly confused.  Thanks for your patience!

you can run with the MD for IJ because its a move as if it were the movement phase, and then can only charge with a fungoid general as general (wouldn't recommend this though). You can do as many MD moves per phase as you roll 6's with the only limitation being range as it doesn't specify once per phase.

Hope that answers the question

[broche]

2 hours ago, Hot Peanut said:

What do you mean with that? Aetherquartz is clear, but Prophet of Waaagh CP engine? 

i think he meant you generate about 4 attack per 3 CP instead of 7 attack per 6 CP

[velocitydog]

Oh, SO much fun to be had.  Thanks everyone!

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, velocitydog said:

+13 attacks?!?!??!!  I'm guessing this had something to do with the Aetherquarz Brooch or whatever artifact lets you roll to see if you don't lose a spend command point.  That's incredible. 

Bloodtoofs with 100 points for 2 extra CP's so 4 in total. Engaged turn 2, with 6 CP's. Got up to 12 Waaagh! running and only rolled a single 6  

The Broach is frankly disgusting.

1 hour ago, velocitydog said:

You mention run on MD and then charge with a second MD.  How do you get two MD's? And a run isn't an MD option. Not saying your wrong, only that I'm clearly confused.  Thanks for your patience!

You roll for each Ironjawz hero, you then trigger it on an applicable unit as @Superninja and @Oreaper84 said. This can stack multiple times on a single unit with careful movement.

There is also a fricking huge as loop hole that GW have left regarding running and the MD move. Specifically in the running section.

Quote

RUNNING When you pick a unit to make a normal move, you can declare that it will run. Make a run roll for the unit by rolling a dice. Add the result of the run roll to the Move characteristic of all models in the unit for that movement phase. The unit can then move up to that distance in inches. Models in a unit that runs can’t shoot or charge later in the same turn.

Why is this broken? Because it adds the run roll to your move CHARACTERISTIC for the rest of the phase. This has some disgusting ramifications with Bloodtoofs, Mighty Destroyers and At The Double. 

1. Trigger Mighty Destroyers on a unit of Ardboys.
2. Run them.
3. Make the Run Roll a 6.
4. With Bloodtoofs this is now a 7.
5. Your Ardboys now have a move characteristic of 11
6. Move 11"
7. Trigger a second Mighty Destroyers on the same unit
8. Run them again
9. Make the roll a 6 for 7 total
10. Ardboys now have a move characteristic of 18"
11. Do whatever you want because you just got 29" of movement on a unit of Ardboys during your hero phase.

[Andrew G]

14 minutes ago, broche said:

i think he meant you generate about 4 attack per 3 CP instead of 7 attack per 6 CP

It's way more than that. You have to account for those extra CP generated also being affected by broach, it maths out to about 1.45 CP for each CP used (just accounting for broach at this point). Prophet of the Waaagh gives you roughly a 30% compared to 16.6% chance of generating an extra attack per CP.  So it's something close to 1.9 extra attacks per 1 CP used.