Skumbaagh Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 So after some rereading of warscrolls i realized that funguid is not gonna be as good as i hoped for a 1st turn strike. that wholy within 18 doesnt do very well with rampaging destroyers. I had hopes to replace Gordrakkfist and save a sh*tload of points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superninja Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) @Malakree So whats the full breakdown of which weapon is better for ardboys against all saves? Looking for an easy quick reference. Saves: 2+ ___________ 3+ ___________ 4+ ___________ 5+ ___________ 6+ ____________ 2+rr __________ 3+rr __________ 4+rr ___________ 5+rr __________ 6+rr _____________ Edited October 18, 2018 by Superninja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broche Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 no buff, break even is 3+ or 6+ rr. with +2 attack, break even is 5+ (with rend always better against reroll) I've not computed rr 1 (wich is probably more interesting than reroll because more frequent), but you can apply the same formula. There's also some notable exeption (2 weapon is always strictly better against ignore rend, rend 1 become better agains skeleton for exemple) Save Damage Input Factor Damage Output 2 weapon 2+ 10.33333333 6 1.722222222 3+ 10.33333333 5 3.444444444 4+ 10.33333333 4 5.166666667 5+ 10.33333333 3 6.888888889 6+ 10.33333333 2 8.611111111 big weapon 2+ 6.888888889 5 2.296296296 3+ 6.888888889 4 3.444444444 4+ 6.888888889 3 4.592592593 5+ 6.888888889 2 5.740740741 6+ 6.888888889 1 6.888888889 2 weapon 2+ rr 10.33333333 36 0.287037037 3+ rr 10.33333333 33 1.148148148 4+ rr 10.33333333 27 2.87037037 5+ rr 10.33333333 21 4.592592593 6+ rr 10.33333333 12 7.175925926 big weapon 2+ rr 6.888888889 33 0.765432099 3+ rr 6.888888889 27 1.913580247 4+ rr 6.888888889 21 3.061728395 5+ rr 6.888888889 12 4.783950617 6+ rr 6.888888889 1 6.888888889 2 weapon +2 attack 2+ 17.22222222 6 2.87037037 3+ 17.22222222 5 5.740740741 4+ 17.22222222 4 8.611111111 5+ 17.22222222 3 11.48148148 6+ 17.22222222 2 14.35185185 big weapon +2 attack 2+ 13.77777778 5 4.592592593 3+ 13.77777778 4 6.888888889 4+ 13.77777778 3 9.185185185 5+ 13.77777778 2 11.48148148 6+ 13.77777778 1 13.77777778 2 weapon +2 attack 2+ rr 17.22222222 36 0.478395062 3+ rr 17.22222222 33 1.913580247 4+ rr 17.22222222 27 4.783950617 5+ rr 17.22222222 21 7.654320988 6+ rr 17.22222222 12 11.95987654 big weapon +2 attack 2+ rr 13.77777778 33 1.530864198 3+ rr 13.77777778 27 3.827160494 4+ rr 13.77777778 21 6.12345679 5+ rr 13.77777778 12 9.567901235 6+ rr 13.77777778 1 13.77777778 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broche Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) Actually, i considered Reroll All. I should have done Reroll Failed (will increase output for Rend agains RR) Edited October 18, 2018 by broche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broche Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 result for reroll 1: 2 weapon 2+ rr1 10.33333333 36 0.287037037 3+ rr1 10.33333333 29 2.296296296 4+ rr1 10.33333333 22 4.305555556 5+ rr1 10.33333333 15 6.314814815 6+ rr1 10.33333333 8 8.324074074 big weapon 2+ rr1 6.888888889 29 1.530864198 3+ rr1 6.888888889 22 2.87037037 4+ rr1 6.888888889 15 4.209876543 5+ rr1 6.888888889 8 5.549382716 6+ rr1 6.888888889 1 6.888888889 2 weapon +2 attack 2+ rr1 17.22222222 36 0.478395062 3+ rr1 17.22222222 29 3.827160494 4+ rr1 17.22222222 22 7.175925926 5+ rr1 17.22222222 15 10.52469136 6+ rr1 17.22222222 8 13.87345679 big weapon +2 attack 2+ rr1 13.77777778 29 3.061728395 3+ rr1 13.77777778 22 5.740740741 4+ rr1 13.77777778 15 8.419753086 5+ rr1 13.77777778 8 11.09876543 6+ rr1 13.77777778 1 13.77777778 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superninja Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Wow, nice breakdown @broche! Thank you for the information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShaneHobbes Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 I see a lot of people talk about the fungoid Cave Shaman but I was curious about people's opinion on the Moonclan Grot Shaman. A +2 to casting a turn (so long as you don't roll a 1..) and a pretty decent core spell at 80 points seems a pretty good alternative to a 120 point weirdknob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broche Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said: I see a lot of people talk about the fungoid Cave Shaman but I was curious about people's opinion on the Moonclan Grot Shaman. A +2 to casting a turn (so long as you don't roll a 1..) and a pretty decent core spell at 80 points seems a pretty good alternative to a 120 point weirdknob. He's not bad, but Fungoid is almost twice as resistant, and his reroll/cast twice ability seem more usefull than the +2. Also give you the option of taking him as the general. You could take one in adition for spell variety after fungoid. However if you play with Realm spell it's pretty irrelevant. Weirnob fill a different role. He is more costly that true, but he his harder to kill, His +2 is not random, and he get it to dispel as well. And more importantly, He count as Ironjawz unit for Mighty destroyer and Waaagh. I think if Realms spell are in effect, Weirnob actually become pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svnvaldez Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 2 hours ago, ShaneHobbes said: I see a lot of people talk about the fungoid Cave Shaman but I was curious about people's opinion on the Moonclan Grot Shaman. A +2 to casting a turn (so long as you don't roll a 1..) and a pretty decent core spell at 80 points seems a pretty good alternative to a 120 point weirdknob. Alot of my lists have a Cave Shaman or a Moonclan Grot Shaman. If you have 80 points to spare, I think Zagbag gits are a nice swap. You are paying 80 points for a fanatic and net if you re-frame the 160 point cost as a Shaman swap and 80 point price tag. You can run the 7 models up front of your lines as a throw away unit that you can use for -1 hit net and charge block. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broche Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Does fanatics uses the same rules as normal one? That mean you can release the single fanatics from unit too block a charge? In that case the warband is pretty strong, and might be auto include in lot of destruction army. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Just now, broche said: Does fanatics uses the same rules as normal one? That mean you can release the single fanatics from unit too block a charge? In that case the warband is pretty strong, and might be auto include in lot of destruction army. Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svnvaldez Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 I don’t believe the fanatic counts as an additional drop as well. One of the units abilities is “A Fanatic unit consisting of 1 model lurks with Zagbag Gitz”. I’m not sure how many units this counts for allies... my guess is 2 since there are 2 units on the pitched battle profile (Zagbag and the Gitz, then the fanatic is a type of summoning through the ability since you don’t pay points for him? Also I’m not sure if this has always been the case but in AOS2 it’s clear a charge roll is a move. So if you roll a double for the charge I believe the fanatic would take a wound and die before charge blocking. But you can spend a CP to reroll so he should only fail to block 1/36 times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svnvaldez Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 All in all thou I typically have a shaman and 80 point to spare in a list so I’ll be looking to swap a mage for the warband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scythian Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 18 hours ago, Malakree said: That right there is known as a "f*ckton of brutes" Too funny! Yes, I am using a few mobs of Brutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 1 hour ago, svnvaldez said: I’m not sure how many units this counts for allies... my guess is 2 since there are 2 units on the pitched battle profile (Zagbag and the Gitz, then the fanatic is a type of summoning through the ability since you don’t pay points for him? The pitched battle profile is 2 profiles, it's 2 drops. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Parker Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Interesting to see in the previous page people discussing ardfist, something I too having been toying with for similar reasons. Gives a good out in certain matchups and even if chanter gets sniped it’s a shed load of wounds for dumping on objectives. My idea is also to use it around a 30 man deathstar with double chanter buff and banner boss support. Perfect storm it’s 30 boyz with 2+ to hit 3+ to wound re roll 1s and multiple waagh stacked. Megaboss - prophet of the waagh chanter (battalion) - mirrored cuirass (MW protection) chanter - Brooch 2 weirdnob shamans banner boss allies 30/10/10/10/10 ardboyz ardfist cogs I know most people go MK but I prefer to have additional heroes and cogs, also allows 4 heroes that can score in wizard or artifacts missions which I find Tournament organizers love to throw in as one of the missions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said: Interesting to see in the previous page people discussing ardfist, something I too having been toying with for similar reasons. Gives a good out in certain matchups and even if chanter gets sniped it’s a shed load of wounds for dumping on objectives. My idea is also to use it around a 30 man deathstar with double chanter buff and banner boss support. Perfect storm it’s 30 boyz with 2+ to hit 3+ to wound re roll 1s and multiple waagh stacked. Megaboss - prophet of the waagh chanter (battalion) - mirrored cuirass (MW protection) chanter - Brooch 2 weirdnob shamans banner boss allies 30/10/10/10/10 ardboyz ardfist cogs I know most people go MK but I prefer to have additional heroes and cogs, also allows 4 heroes that can score in wizard or artifacts missions which I find Tournament organizers love to throw in as one of the missions. I'd drop one of your Weirdnobs to a Fungoid. The second weirdnob ends up being a bit to much of a pita to move around the board and still keep the +2, the Fungoid gives you a much more flexible wizard who still has good survivability and with the deathcap gets 2 spells with a RR. Drop the cogs, they just aren't needed tbh and I often find they give other armies a bigger advantage than us. You already have +3 to all your Ardboy charges. Lastly I'd drop the Megaboss, bit controversial but at 140 points he's damn expensive for what is essentially just a buff bot with a tiny 10" aura range. Since you are already packing an Orruk Warboss you get the 12" unconditional waaagh from him and with 9" movement is much easier to get where you need him for the Waaagh! This gives you 40+60+140 spare points for a total of 240. enough for an extra 10 Ardboys in one of your squads and 80 points to fit in the Ironskullz boys as a cheap space/objective holding unit. Lastly, since you dropped the Footboss you have a free General option. The fungoid is obviously a reasonable choice who lets you run, retreat and charge or you could go for something a little more out there like Brutish Cunning. Quote Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: HyshLeadersOrruk Warchanter (80)- General- Trait: Brutish Cunning - Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)Orruk Warboss (140)- Great Waaagh Banner- AlliesFungoid Cave-Shaman (80)- AlliesBattleline30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)Units4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)BattalionsArdfist (170)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 220 / 400Wounds: 196 Slightly different take on the same idea which gives you more options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skumbaagh Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 5 hours ago, Malakree said: LeadersOrruk Warchanter (80)- General- Trait: Brutish Cunning - Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)Orruk Warboss (140)- Great Waaagh Banner- AlliesFungoid Cave-Shaman (80)- AlliesBattleline30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)Units4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)BattalionsArdfist (170)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 220 / 400Wounds: 196 I'd skip the ironskulls and bring the cog back, when dead, the boyz need to get back into the action asap. (One needent summon the cog until after they are dead or such.) Also I feel its too pillowfisted, need to try the list but bringing 1-2 units of brutes may be needed, and equip them with 2 handers(?) With the fungoid as general for some surprise shananigans, navigating the brutes in and out where I'd want them. Sure the list is about bringing back the boys and using them for all purposes but I dont want them stuck in a fight they need to win, but cant pillow through. I think MSU is the way to go. Allegiance: IronjawzFungoid Cave-Shaman (80)- General- Allies Orruk Warboss (140)- Great Waaagh Banner- AlliesOrruk Warchanter (80)Orruk Warchanter (80)Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)5 x Orruk Brutes (180)5 x Orruk Brutes (180)Ardfist (170)Chronomantic Cogs (60)Total: 1890 / 2000 (Another caster or warchanter perhaps) Extra Command Points: 3Allies: 220 / 400Wounds: 158 On another note. How do you guys feel about new allies and how it will affect our loved Ironjawz? We know/(think) moonclan will get an update at least. I really hope for some new synergies but believe most new grot heroes will affect keyword "grots" only. Is a block of 60 grots with a grot hero going to be mandatory in a competetive IJ list? Excuse my linguistikz.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanoss Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 I’d love to play with a f***ton of brutes! @Malakree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzgurbel Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 The problem I see using the Ardfist is that IJ are really slow. Painfully slow. Ironfist, more or less, solve that, but I feel rather uncomfortable using an army which moves 4" at best. And the Chanter is quite easily snipeable with magic or either (even) shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Parker Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 That’s why I like the cogs goto move 6 possibly with a hero phase move for 12” total and then a charge with +5. chanter can be sniped for sure but 5+ MW save can help a bit hopefully some line of sight blocking terrain or sit in a wood vs non flying shooting. Not sure about going down to just the banner boss as I find most players who know the army kill him first. You could if wanted exchange and take double banner boss. That then means there’s no requirement for extra IJ heroes to boost waagh and can switch in the fungoid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Reuben Parker said: That’s why I like the cogs goto move 6 possibly with a hero phase move for 12” total and then a charge with +5. I totally did take that into account @Skumbaagh @Reuben Parker it's a fantastic point and I agree completely! Great call! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superninja Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) Finally got my Maw Krusha on his base, so I decided to run an Gordrakk Ardfist. Against Nighthaunt on Total Commitment battleplan in Shyish. I only ran one wizard, wish I had run another. However, got 3 of the 5 ardboys in to fight with 4 extra attacks (2 from gordrakk, 2 from Warboss). Also got Gordrakk in the fight as well, no bonuses(he was off to the side). Killed quite a bit of his army and nearly brought down his general, but he was able to heal and bring back a ton. He double turned and wiped those 3 sets of ardboys. Then he moved up and got another set of ardboys and my warboss. I pulled out the win, mainly because my opponent forgot about the ardfist warchanter and Gordrakk a little. I brought back 4 sets of ardboys at the end of round 2! I was winning on points 3-0 at the end of his turn in turn 2 if you can believe it. (the only objective taken was Gordrakk taking one of my opponents objective 1st round, as my whole army moved forward). (Terrain was mostly on around the edges, providing the largest open middle field I have played on yet.) Cogs would have helped, had it in there originally, took it out for the command point and possibly the Triumph, which i got. Spoiler Allegiance: IronjawzMortal Realm: HyshGordrakk The Fist of Gork (580)Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass Orruk Warchanter (80)- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)- General- AlliesOrruk Warboss (140)- Great Waaagh Banner- Allies10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)- 10x Pair of Choppas or Smashas10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)- 10x Pair of Choppas or Smashas10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)- 10x Pair of Choppas or Smashas10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)- 10x Pair of Choppas or Smashas10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)- 10x Pair of Choppas or SmashasArdfist (170)Total: 1930 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 220 / 400Wounds: 137 Edited October 22, 2018 by Superninja 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broche Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) @Superninja glad to see you had success with the big G! Personnaly i don't like Cog. Never tried it and don't think I will. There's a misconception that we are a slow army, but Ironjawz are just average. The 4 move is compensate by the +1 to charge (+3 for ardboys). Cog is cool, but you're opponent get bonus too. I think Cog is best used to give extra cast and reroll save to a wizard. If I had a spell to take in ardfist, i would take Geminid. 20 pts less and much more impact. Edited October 22, 2018 by broche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Parker Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 37 minutes ago, broche said: @Superninja glad to see you had success with the big G! Personnaly i don't like Cog. Never tried it and don't think I will. There's a misconception that we are a slow army, but Ironjawz are just average. The 4 move is compensate by the +1 to charge (+3 for ardboys). Cog is cool, but you're opponent get bonus too. I think Cog is best used to give extra cast and reroll save to a wizard. If I had a spell to take in ardfist, i would take Geminid. 20 pts less and much more impact. Yes IJ are average in terms of speed but the issue is it’s average speed on a pure Melee army. Look at other Melee armies like DoK, Deepkin, Khorne even nurgle with trees they can zip across the field. In comparison IJ are slower than all of the other Melee armies. Even fyreslayers can use tunneling and a once per game rune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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