AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Superninja]

@Luzgurbel

It depends.

The ardboys are one of the few units that can mix their weapon setups.   Because of this, you want 1/3-1/2  to have shields, so that you can allocate damage to them.  The front 1/2 of the unit should have either two weapons or great weapons.  Great weapons are typically better because of the -1 rend.  However, there are cases where the two weapons are better (vs. ethereal stuff like Nighthaunt etc.). 

Remember the Boss, Drummer, and standard bearers can use the weapons of your choice before setup. 

For the standard bearers, use 1 of each standard per 10 in case you use units of 10.  Then Use 1 boss model and 1 drummer per 10 for the same reason.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Superninja

[Malakree]

16 minutes ago, Superninja said:

Remember the Boss, Drummer, and standard bearers can use the weapons of your choice before setup. 

For the standard bearers, use 1 of each standard per 10 in case you use units of 10.  Then Use 1 boss model and 1 drummer per 10 for the same reason.

You actually get enough in the SC for 2 drummers, an Icon of Gork and Orruk Banner.

Ideally your units of 10 should be either 7-3 or 1-9 Great Weapons/Shields depending on what role you want them to do. When you go up to larger size units the % of shields increases because they scale so well the more of them you have, plus you often won't get more than 10-15 in combat anyway. So at 20 I use 7-13 and for 30 I prefer 12-18. Those are vague numbers but you can see the approximate distribution. 

In the modern meta and using our current tactics GW are better than DW. This is for a few reasons. Yes you have armies like Seraphon or Nighthaunt floating around (!) but they are a relatively small amount of the army pool. On the other hand you have units like Black Knights/Skeletons whose shields give them +1 save vs no rend, so the 2h are actually -2 rend. You also have things like sequitors which have RRsaves, because of how modifiers are applied getting them below their native save is massive. The ordering is below.

1. Opponent makes saves (4+)
2. Opponent rerolls any failed saves (1-3)
3. Modifiers are applied (-1)
4. Check to see what went through.

So against sequitors if you have -1 rend and they have no +save then their save rolls are actually 1/2/3 Reroll, 4 fail, 5/6 success So that -1 rend gives them a "failed save" that they can't reroll, which is significantly strong than the extra attack.

Lastly is the fact we are using Waaagh! far more than we used to, and the more extra attacks you get the better then -1 rend becomes relatively. +1 attack is practically meaningless if you're getting +3/4 attacks from Waaagh, on the other hand an -1 rend only gets better the more bonus attacks you stack.

 

[broche]

20 minutes ago, Superninja said:

Great weapons are typically better because of the -1 rend.  However, there are cases where the two weapons are better (vs. ethereal stuff like Nighthaunt etc.). 

It still surprise me that poeple still think that 2-hand are better by default.

2 weapon are strictly better against 3+ and worse and against reroll. On top of my head, frequently encoutered save reroll are: Sequitor, Kurnouth and Fyreslayer. Fyreslayer are not as good as they where pre GHB2.

However, if you Waagh it changed the math. When you add attack, then 2-hand weapon get better and better (at +1 atk both option are even at 4+ save, ect.). But since you only waaaagh half of the time, it take at leas +2 attack to compensate i think. 

So in the end, playing a mixed units is probably better anyway. You can remove the least usefull model first as casualty anyway.

[Malakree]

12 minutes ago, broche said:

So in the end, playing a mixed units is probably better anyway. You can remove the least usefull model first as casualty anyway.

The biggest issues come from the command squad and shield options.

You generally want to remove the command squad last so what it has decides what you end up with.

For larger units 10/10/10 is worse than 10/20 because of how the 6++ functions as the number of shields increases.

[Lanoss]

@SirPergrin

I suggest you go with the Boss Skewer on your warchanter as your third Artefact. Bloodtoofs have sick bravery and with the Boss Skewers +1/-1 bubble it adds an extra benefit. Battleshock should be a problem

I run a very similar Bloodtoofs list 

[SirPergrin]

1 hour ago, Lanoss said:

@SirPergrin

I suggest you go with the Boss Skewer on your warchanter as your third Artefact. Bloodtoofs have sick bravery and with the Boss Skewers +1/-1 bubble it adds an extra benefit. Battleshock should be a problem

I run a very similar Bloodtoofs list 

Thanks for the advice, i will try it out for sure next time! 

So, i did pretty well on the first game against a legion of night list with manfred and a lot of vargheists, but i am not sure about the bloodtoofs. I want to include the fungoid shaman and a third unit of brutes, so i came up with this. 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
Battleline
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
- 8x Pair of Choppas or Smashas
- 6x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 6x Big Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 137

I love the pigs, great models and all but with ironfist giving decent mobility, i don't think that a second unit is required. 
 

[Lanoss]

In my experience, one lonely Fungoid Shaman wasn’t enough to make an impact in my games. So I just forgo all magic now haha

[Scythian]

“Blockjawz Big Badd Brutes”

2,000 Points

Megaboss “Blockjawz” with Prophet of the Waaagh and Golden Toof

Weirdnob Shaman

2 Warchanters

Battleline

20 Brutes with gore hackas and boss with claw and smasha 

20 Brutes with gore hackas and boss with boss choppa 

3 gore gruntas

[broche]

4 hours ago, Lanoss said:

In my experience, one lonely Fungoid Shaman wasn’t enough to make an impact in my games. So I just forgo all magic now haha

unless you sacrifice ironclad and make him general

@Scythian cool list!  2 x 20 brutes is scary for but I see main 2 issues, and I'm wondering how you could make this work.

1. Only 7 units for Waaagh, meaning they all need to stick together at 10'' from Megaboss. 

2. Low board coverage. A battleplan like Scorched earth (or the new variant better part of valour) would be almost unwinnable i think. 

I think you at least need to split one of the 20 brutes in 15/5. Or maybe you could do -5 brutes, +Ironskullz boyz and start with 2 command point, and get the triumph. Triumph will be huge in a list like this. Anyway it's refreshing to see a list with no Krusha!

Edited October 16, 2018 by broche

[Boombatty80]

Hey guys....can I get an honest appraisal of this cheeky list? Ta. 

 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Live to Fight 
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)

[Superninja]

@broche Sorry I do face a lot of re-rolls.  Buddy of mine is constantly using large blocks of sequitors/evocators. 

And by typically better, I did mean with Waagh! etc. 

Is 3+ save the benchmark? 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Superninja

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

@broche Sorry I do face a lot of re-rolls.  Buddy of mine is constantly using large blocks of sequitors/evocators. 

And by typically better, I did mean with Waagh! etc. 

Is 3+ save the benchmark? 

Iirc 4+ the extra attack is slightly better but it's essentially equivalent. For every type of reroll, 1+/2+/rra the -1 gets one save step better.

So with rra they are approximately equivalent at 6+

3 hours ago, Boombatty80 said:

Hey guys....can I get an honest appraisal of this cheeky list? Ta. 

 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Live to Fight 
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)

Weirdnob+balewind seems a lot considering your lack of bodies.

I'd drop both for 10 ardboys instead, no wizard only hurts if you are using realm spells and at that point I'd drop the spearchukkas for a fungoid general if you want cheeky.

[Oreaper84]

So the more i go down matchups and overall efficiency....the more i am finding ardboyz come out on top. I had 5 tough games with them at a GT this weekend running 3 x 10 and i have to say that they perform every....single....game.

[Malakree]

12 minutes ago, Oreaper84 said:

So the more i go down matchups and overall efficiency....the more i am finding ardboyz come out on top. I had 5 tough games with them at a GT this weekend running 3 x 10 and i have to say that they perform every....single....game.

Aye I've gradually come to the conclusion that a massive Ardfist is probably our best list. Something like

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
- Allies
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Units
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)
5 x Cave Squigs (60)

Battalions
Ardfist (170)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 182

Maybe something like that, ton of wounds, big blocks of Ardboys and fungoid to allow you to reposition if they try and pin your unit down or just to have the MK do multiple charges.

Hell maybe even go the whole hog.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
- Allies
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ardfist (170)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 203

203 wounds which you can potentially bring back 180 of them. Most armies are not going to be able to get through that number of wounds with a 4+ save and a bunch of 6++ as well.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Malakree
If only it didn't require 70-90 Ardboys for a proper Ardfist list....

[broche]

Yes exactly, i think it's at least 20 - 30 ardboys ( Ironskullz can fill the roll of 5 ardboys wich is cool)  in every list at the moment, and playing the board control game. You play chess and Ardfist is your outs against DoK and Idoneth. Other army don't really have the firepower to chew threw 150+ wound at 4+

[Skumbaagh]

14 hours ago, Malakree said:

Aye I've gradually come to the conclusion that a massive Ardfist is probably our best list. Something like

Maybe something like that, ton of wounds, big blocks of Ardboys and fungoid to allow you to reposition if they try and pin your unit down or just to have the MK do multiple charges.

Hell maybe even go the whole hog.

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
- Allies
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ardfist (170)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 203

203 wounds which you can potentially bring back 180 of them. Most armies are not going to be able to get through that number of wounds with a 4+ save and a bunch of 6++ as well.

If I get this right one could doublerun and charge a blob of 30 boyz on average 29" with cogs, fungoid and a trigger of rampaging destroyers?  2*(4(move)+2(cog)+3,5(d6 run)) + 7(2d6charge)+2(drummer)+1(IJ charge bonus) = 19+10". 

And then bring them back again.. 

Edit: realised rampaging destroyers need to trigger on a 6 as fungoid is the general. That trigger is worth 9,5" movement, gotta bring a lot of heroes!

Edited October 17, 2018 by Skumbaagh

[Gobsmakka]

6 hours ago, Skumbaagh said:

If I get this right one could doublerun and charge a blob of 30 boyz on average 29" with cogs, fungoid and a trigger of rampaging destroyers?  2*(4(move)+2(cog)+3,5(d6 run)) + 7(2d6charge)+2(drummer)+1(IJ charge bonus) = 19+10". 

And then bring them back again.. 

Edit: realised rampaging destroyers need to trigger on a 6 as fungoid is the general. That trigger is worth 9,5" movement, gotta bring a lot of heroes!

A few things there I see going in this thread here that seem off, unless my understanding of this game is fundamentally off. 

* If you're Ironjawz Allegiance, the fungoid shaman can't be your general. "In a Pitched battle, your general must be a Leader, and may not be an ally"
* Rampaging destroyers in Ironjawz can only be rolled for Ironjawz heros, not the ally fungoid shaman. If you were intending this list to be GA Destruction then your +1(IJ charge bonus) isn't valid.

 

Also on a general note the one issue I would see with massive Ardfist is that Ardboys don't die very quickly, especially in large blocks, so you wouldn't be looking at getting them resurrected until at least turn 3, and wouldn't be able to move until turn 4. Its a big gamble because even though they come back, they may not be able to get into a position to be useful by the end of the game, or in time to save your spiraling victory point deficit.

[Malakree]

4 minutes ago, Gobsmakka said:

* If you're Ironjawz Allegiance, the fungoid shaman can't be your general. "In a Pitched battle, your general must be a Leader, and may not be an ally"

Check the Malign Portents Errata. A Harbringer can be included in any army of their Grand Alliance regardless of allies and may be the general in those armies.

6 minutes ago, Gobsmakka said:

* Rampaging destroyers in Ironjawz can only be rolled for Ironjawz heros, not the ally fungoid shaman. If you were intending this list to be GA Destruction then your +1(IJ charge bonus) isn't valid.

He addressed this at the bottom, the Edit: where it says about only rolling the 6s because he doesn't get to roll for the fungoid.

It's great the way GW hides these things in a bunch of different places isn't it ?

8 minutes ago, Gobsmakka said:

Also on a general note the one issue I would see with massive Ardfist is that Ardboys don't die very quickly, especially in large blocks, so you wouldn't be looking at getting them resurrected until at least turn 3, and wouldn't be able to move until turn 4. Its a big gamble because even though they come back, they may not be able to get into a position to be useful by the end of the game, or in time to save your spiraling victory point deficit.

If they hang around and hold the objectives till turn 3 you've won anyway. There's some funky rules around when you can actually use the replacement ability, as it stands right now you can use it at any point whenever you like, which means you could technically lose them at the end of your turn (combat/battleshock) resummon them and get to move them your turn after that.Plus with correct warchanter positioning you can more or less pick where you want them to come on, if they are within 12" then you're +3 to charge gives them good odds of getting in.

Yes that is a weakness with it and it's why I also included a bunch of smaller units in my theoretical version. Idea being you probably won't bring back the unit of 30 unless your opponent hard focuses it, this means you're either getting a bunch of smaller units back which can reposition while the large unit holds or visa versa.

[Skumbaagh]

10 minutes ago, Gobsmakka said:

A few things there I see going in this thread here that seem off, unless my understanding of this game is fundamentally off. 

* If you're Ironjawz Allegiance, the fungoid shaman can't be your general. "In a Pitched battle, your general must be a Leader, and may not be an ally"
* Rampaging destroyers in Ironjawz can only be rolled for Ironjawz heros, not the ally fungoid shaman. If you were intending this list to be GA Destruction then your +1(IJ charge bonus) isn't valid.

 

Also on a general note the one issue I would see with massive Ardfist is that Ardboys don't die very quickly, especially in large blocks, so you wouldn't be looking at getting them resurrected until at least turn 3, and wouldn't be able to move until turn 4. Its a big gamble because even though they come back, they may not be able to get into a position to be useful by the end of the game, or in time to save your spiraling victory point deficit.

Yes he can be a general. Its stated separately for the heralds. He just doesnt get an artefact.

I have been messing with lists with only ten man units but thought a blob of 30 may get killed early on when charging head on the first turn. I realize the opponent may choose to leave the unit when it reaches a low count, 

[broche]

You also get to roll for mighty destroyer for him when he's the general (but will only trigger on a 6)

I think Ardfist will never really trigger except agains DoK and Idoneth. DoK can actually kill 200 wound without any trouble, but they will loose stuff in the process, then when you bring back 2-3 units of ardboys it should put you in good position (especially with their +3 charges). Same logic apply agains Idoneth.

Both those army have little answer to the warchanter if you don't expose him.

I would start with something like:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
Ardfist (170)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 1700 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 7
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130
 

And customized from there.

1. Fungoid or not, both are viable. You sacrifice the free move on 4+ and Ironclad / Prophet for potential retreat and charge. I think this list can benefit more from Retreat and charges as you'll play more defensive and hold your MK back (he can alway take Etheral Amulet for protection)

2. You could scrap Shaman and Gemminid for more Warchanter or Bodies. Personnaly I like geminid in this kind of list. Reliable with Weirnob, and it protect  you agains double turn, Good against almost anything except Nagash.

3. Add Brutes if you need Hammer, Pig if you need more mobility. Personnaly i would keep at leas 50 to start with 3 CP. 

 

[Gobsmakka]

Do tournaments or any other play events still use malign portents rules? I notice adepticon 2018 rules said they accept the warscrolls only and nova open does not list them. I've only done one tournament myself over the summer and it was not mentioned. It felt like the harbinger general thing was really just for that campaign which is pretty much over it seems and replaced with 2.0. Could just be my local meta, but I've not heard of anyone around here using malign portents since the campaign ended.

[Malakree]

3 minutes ago, Gobsmakka said:

Do tournaments or any other play events still use malign portents rules? I notice adepticon 2018 rules said they accept the warscrolls only and nova open does not list them. I've only done one tournament myself over the summer and it was not mentioned. It felt like the harbinger general thing was really just for that campaign which is pretty much over it seems and replaced with 2.0. Could just be my local meta, but I've not heard of anyone around here using malign portents since the campaign ended.

They were imported into the none malign portents rules. That's part of why it's so hard to find all this stuff.

[PlasticCraic]

6 hours ago, broche said:

I think Ardfist will never really trigger except agains DoK and Idoneth. DoK can actually kill 200 wound without any trouble, but they will loose stuff in the process, then when you bring back 2-3 units of ardboys it should put you in good position (especially with their +3 charges). Same logic apply agains Idoneth.

That's a really good point, it could be really useful in both of those matchups for the reasons you've outlined.

[Scythian]

Blockjawz’ Big Badd Brutes done! Fully painted 2k Ironjawz complete!

[Malakree]

That right there is known as a "f*ckton of brutes"