AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Donal]

20 hours ago, Malakree said:

Seeing @Chris Tomlin and @Sangfroid both being order traitors is sad  Generic Destruction in 2nd place, and one of only two 5 majors is nice. I would like to see the list (@Donal?) but I suspect it has at least 180 grots....

It definitely looks like destruction is better than any specific allegiances.

I want all the destruction victories. My list was:

Flying Frostlord
Hag
Fungoid General
Moonclan Shaman

60 Grots
40 Grots
20 Grots
2x3 Fanatics

Geminids
Attitude

[Rock Lobster]

Beasts of chaos army book is pretty awesome, very jealous of their list which can do ironjawz better than ironjawz. Really fast army that hits hard. Their basic units have mv 6 and +3 move from being close to a shaman (no need to cast a spell) plus they can run and charge and get +1 to run just from having banners - basic infantry surge forward 13" on average before the charge without the spending on all the battalions we need to or the randomness of destruction.

The bestigor are like ardboyz but better - battleline if your general is a beastlord or bray shaman, 300 points for 30 with a hearty discount. Comparing to the closest match of 20 ardboyz with great weapons which is 20 points more expensive, they have the same save, same rend, same hit and to wound, same bravery but 10 less wounds, however they have 2 extra movement and 20 extra attacks base. Their conditional abilities really set them apart though, they get +1 attacks if they charge, so that 20 extra attacks becomes 50 extra attacks (and with their movement and free run a charge isn't hard), if they attack a unit of 10 or more models they get +1 to hit, and if they fight an Order unit they reroll 1s to hit. Just charging them makes them far superior, if you have 10 or more models its a massive difference and without any buffs being placed on the unit or any more points spent. The ardboys unit charging a unit of 40 skeletons will average 13 kills and will take 7 wounds in return. The Bestigor unit will average 40 wounds and wipe out the skeletons, no casualties in return - and 20 points cheaper.

Those fights with beasts of chaos will be tough for us, be aware if you have not yet faced them.

 

[Rock Lobster]

10 minutes ago, Donal said:

I want all the destruction victories. My list was:

Flying Frostlord
Hag
Fungoid General
Moonclan Shaman

60 Grots
40 Grots
20 Grots
2x3 Fanatics

Geminids
Attitude

What was your general strategy with the list?

[Vasshpit]

@Rock Lobster

I felt this same way as soon I read the community preview...

It'll be interesting to see how Ironjawz expand in the future. 

[broche]

nice list @Donal

any reason you chose Frostlord over Maw krusha (as you can use fungoid on the Krusha)

[broche]

@Rock Lobster you're not making a too easy comparaison. 

1. Max size unit vs non-maxed units

2. 2 life a pop vs 1 life a pop

3. Not factoring available ability (from what i saw Beast doest have the multiple waaagh shenanigan)

Getting 20 ardboys in combat is much easier than getting all 30 bestigor (same base size, same reach). When you factor that 20 ardboys can be split into 2 x 10 and still be an effective units, while 10 bestigors are a bit meh 

That said it's definitly a good unit. Decent move with nice hitting power. Also love that they specify number of standart bearer on the warscroll.

 

[Rock Lobster]

4 minutes ago, broche said:

@Rock Lobster you're not making a too easy comparaison. 

1. Max size unit vs non-maxed units

2. 2 life a pop vs 1 life a pop

3. Not factoring available ability (from what i saw Beast doest have the multiple waaagh shenanigan)

Getting 20 ardboys in combat is much easier than getting all 30 bestigor (same base size, same reach). When you factor that 20 ardboys can be split into 2 x 10 and still be an effective units, while 10 bestigors are a bit meh 

That said it's definitly a good unit. Decent move with nice hitting power. Also love that they specify number of standart bearer on the warscroll.

 

Fair points, although to provide a counter to that:

1. Part of the problem is that the max size for bestigor is a much more digestable chunk of points than max size ardboyz, 300 vs 450, very easy to slot a couple of 300 point units into a list and not have all your eggs in one basket, you can have 3 such unis for the price of 2 max ardboyz units and all of the above advantages still stand, but with more units and more flexibility. Also the discounts are not equal, Ardboyz are 16 points each, at max discount (which costs more points to get to) you get a 1 point discount taking them to 15 points, a 6.25% discount. The bestigor are 12 points each and with a 2 point discount drop to 10 points each which is a massive 16.66% discount. So you have to invest less points in bestigor by 30% and get an additional 10% discount. This could be addressed per an earlier post of mine by having ardboyz units being in 5 man increments with 20 at max size. If the same 2 point discount were applied that would mean 280 points for 20 ardboyz which would line up nicely and balanced against the bestigor.

2. I factored that in, in the comparison this gives 10 more wounds to the comparable ardboyz unit. Less speed and a lot less killing killing power but more durable.

3. They dont have the same ability as Waaagh no, but they do have buffs that can be applied for additional + to hit rerolls and increasing rend which are good, also they get the benefit of an innate single waaagh when charging, no command points, rolls or restrictions on placement required. It is a big advantage that where Ironjawz need to bunch up together for a Waaagh, you can spread your bestigor all over the table and they still get access to their extra abilities in the warscroll.

----

The point about getting more models into combat is valid, but even if you get the same amount into combat and you charge you have 50% more hitting power, even more so if facing a unit of 10 or more. Also 10 man bestigor units are not to be sniffed at even if the price is 120 points verses 160 for the ardboyz unit. chuck that 10 man bestigor unit in to the ardboyz unit which is 33% more expensive and you will do 9 wounds on average, killing almost half the unit in one sweep. The MSU style might even be the way to go, although I think for objective games, many people would struggle against 4 big blocks of 30 bestigor plus 2 great bray shamans to buff and increase movement for just 1400 points. That is a scary proposition, and it will charge you turn 1 if cogs go off.

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Donal said:

Flying Frostlord
Hag

Love these two so much. It's good to see the Hag getting used. The idea of a frostlord flying around, on either mount, is just hillarious. 

 

[broche]

44 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

The point about getting more models into combat is valid, but even if you get the same amount into combat and you charge you have 50% more hitting power, even more so if facing a unit of 10 or more. Also 10 man bestigor units are not to be sniffed at even if the price is 120 points verses 160 for the ardboyz unit. chuck that 10 man bestigor unit in to the ardboyz unit which is 33% more expensive and you will do 9 wounds on average, killing almost half the unit in one sweep. 

But then the remain 6 ardboys will kill 3 in retaliation and with +1 to hit and +2 attack will clear them off next turn, while your buffed  6 grunta/maw krusha/brutes will charge other stuff run them to the ground. 

From the little i saw, i think beastman is the kind of army that ironjaw should fare pretty well against. They hit hard, but not insanly hard like DoK, the have good move but low shooting, and they die (one of the key for Ironjawz to be good is stuff that die).  Their best asset look like they can Tzangor for shooting and flying units (those new enligted at 140 are really cheap)

But i think you're right that they are probably slightly undercosted. They do look more like elite infantry like Greatsword or Thrall so at 120 they are pretty cheap, look more like a 130 or 140 per ten than 120.

[Donal]

15 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

What was your general strategy with the list?

score objectives, win the scenario, vomit and kill things with frostlord. Tie up and debuff the heavy hitters

[Entombet]

Dont underestimate their shooting, 40 ungor raiders for 320 that can shoot after run and reroll 1,2 to hit are not that bad.

[Rock Lobster]

6 hours ago, Donal said:

score objectives, win the scenario, vomit and kill things with frostlord. Tie up and debuff the heavy hitters

Haha... very informative. Its like asking for stock tips and being told buy low, sell high...

[Mayple]

24 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

Haha... very informative. Its like asking for stock tips and being told buy low, sell high...

Which would be a completely accurate advice, no? ;) As for the answer given, you did ask about the -general- strategy. The answer is in tune with that. 

Asking them to elaborate will be infinitely more useful than being unhappy with what you were given

[Rock Lobster]

12 minutes ago, Mayple said:

Which would be a completely accurate advice, no? ;) As for the answer given, you did ask about the -general- strategy. The answer is in tune with that. 

Asking them to elaborate will be infinitely more useful than being unhappy with what you were given

I wasn't unhappy, I thought it was funny. Hence my haha reaction to his post and comment.

[Mayple]

Just now, Rock Lobster said:

I wasn't unhappy, I thought it was funny. Hence my haha reaction to his post and comment.

That dot dot dot part of it really messed up my interpretation of it in that case! It seemed so passive aggressive! ?Well, then you may completely disregard what I said No harm no foul! 

[Rock Lobster]

25 minutes ago, Mayple said:

That dot dot dot part of it really messed up my interpretation of it in that case! It seemed so passive aggressive! ?Well, then you may completely disregard what I said No harm no foul! 

I am ironjawz player, we don't do passive... just aggressive ?

[broche]

back to topic, concerning sword of justice: i did not had a chance to try it, but i think playing it I would try it on the Maw Krusha with the Gorehacka / srap tooth set up, on the scrap tooth. With just 1 warchanter buff it make him as killy (and squishy) as gordrack, but for  140 pts cheaper. 

I don't really like it on a Warchanter or Megaboss. They are too slow to get in combat.

So i guess it's a choice between defensive and aggressive. Not easy...

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, broche said:

back to topic, concerning sword of justice: i did not had a chance to try it, but i think playing it I would try it on the Maw Krusha with the Gorehacka / srap tooth set up, on the scrap tooth. With just 1 warchanter buff it make him as killy (and squishy) as gordrack, but for  140 pts cheaper. 

I don't really like it on a Warchanter or Megaboss. They are too slow to get in combat.

So i guess it's a choice between defensive and aggressive. Not easy...

Yeah after testing it on the footboss he's impossible to get in the right place at the right time. Also because he's so slow the SoJ threat range is way to small.

Personally I'm thinking I'd use the choppas and scraptooth still because if you're dropping +hit on the MB it really boosts the scraptooth well.

The other option for me would be on a warchanter. At that point it is the threat of it more than actually investing in it, the warchanter is good even without using it where as you are properly investing in the footboss for the SoJ over a bannerboss.

[broche]

I find it a bit counter productive to replace your best weapon with a better one. Srap tooth do negligable dammage by it self (1 damage, no rend). With SoJ you get the same output you would get with the boss choppa, but you keep your big attack at 2 damage rend 1. Also I suspect the 2'' is not to be underestimate.

[Malakree]

20 minutes ago, broche said:

I find it a bit counter productive to replace your best weapon with a better one. Srap tooth do negligable dammage by it self (1 damage, no rend). With SoJ you get the same output you would get with the boss choppa, but you keep your big attack at 2 damage rend 1. Also I suspect the 2'' is not to be underestimate.

I meant Choppa and Rip-tooth fist, the "tooth" part confused me ?

Personally I dislike the GH/ST setup although in this situation I can see they are about equal. 

[Imperial]

14 hours ago, Malakree said:

Yeah after testing it on the footboss he's impossible to get in the right place at the right time. Also because he's so slow the SoJ threat range is way to small.

Did you try him with aqshy artefact +4 move and fly?

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Imperial said:

Did you try him with aqshy artefact +4 move and fly?

That stops him taking the SoJ ?

[Skumbaagh]

1 hour ago, Imperial said:

Did you try him with aqshy artefact +4 move and fly?

 

27 minutes ago, Malakree said:

That stops him taking the SoJ ?

If we would only get a megaboss on piggyback.... ?

Its the one thing we are missing when it comes to units. A half descent hero with some speed under its feet. Put that sword to good use.

[Imperial]

51 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

If we would only get a megaboss on piggyback.... ?

I think we will get next wave next summer and after Shadespire stormcast vs ironjawz....

[Skumbaagh]

2 minutes ago, Imperial said:

I think we will get next wave next summer and after Shadespire stormcast vs ironjawz....

I acctually think our army is close to done model wise. One more unit at the most (whatever role it would have, shooting or something specialised, like mosterhunters or such?) and perhaps another hero which is more of a hope. A new battle tome thou, that is a must!