AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Kasper]

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

The thing about brute heavy lists is with da choppas you can buff multiple units of them at once. 3x10 brutes all with +1 damage from only one WC is terrifying in a way GGs never will be. The -2 rend and free +1 to hit vs big stuff guarantees they mince things with 4+ wounds while they flat out deny single wound models from holding objectives. If you don't think that's important with horrors being a thing you are overlooking one of the strongest lists in the game atm.

Sure they don't run with 2 cabbages but there is a reasonable 1 cabbage list and potential for a footslogging list.

Brutes are solid as hell right now.

As I wrote, it might be a case of local metas being different, but literally nobody are playing mass Pinks or whatever here in either clubs that I play in. At most some Tzeentch lists have 10 Pinks because they usually want to fill it with support for Archaon or mass casters or whatever, but a single unit is easy enough to deal with and dont "require" Brutes at all. If someone is playing 40 Pinks in Australia I dont really care since it isnt affecting me in EU, yet. 

Yes the damage of Brutes is superior to Pigs but the gulf between them dont seem big enough mathhammer wise to give up the increased mobility. People are drooling over the "rend 2 is king" thing but mathhammer wise it doesnt seem THAT much stronger? 

So there are obviously a lot of factors that can be at play here. This is just 5 Brutes (3 with Gore-Hackas, 1 Gore-choppa and 1 Boss Klaw) vs 3 Pigs. Both have warchanter buff. I didnt factor in the +1 to hit for the Brutes because the arguement is the objective play (i.e fighting 1 wound models) rather than overall damage potential - You can always give the Pigs +1 from AoA anyways and it will be about the same increase.

Lets assume you are fighting something with a 4+ base save that got +2 to save from Mystic Shield and AoD or whatever (ignoring rend 2 then), this would mean the Pigs are doing 9,33 damage to the unit because the targeted unit will be on a 3+ save meanwhile the Brutes will do 11,83 damage because they ignore the +2 save so they are hitting against the 4+ base save. Its a bit scuffed because the Boss Klaw is only rend 1, so should be hitting on a 3+ target too but I pooled everything into one profile, lets give the Brutes this edge and its probably minor anyways.

So Brutes are ahead here but we are missing the very likely 2 MWs from 3x 3+ impact hits from the Pigs, so a more realistic picture would be that they are doing 2+9,33 = 11,33 damage. 

So the mathhammer picture leans in favor of Brutes the better save the target has and obviously leans towards the Pigs as you fight targets with worse saves like Zombies or most other horde units in general. 

 

1. They are identical points (pretty much)
2. Brutes DO more damage, but mathhammer proves the damage is not as big as people make it out to be
3. Pigs have significantly superior mobility

 

Am I missing something here?

[QuinacridoneGold]

So, as always, this thread is really useful.

I am starting to explore AoS 3.0 with my group and really liking it so far. I am bringing my pure Ironjawz to 2k.

From my understanding, Optimal builds would be 2 Maw Krushas and MSU spamming of pigs.

However, I only have acces to 9 Gore Gruntas, and would refrain from buying more as modelling and painting them is too painful.

My roster is; 1Maw Krusha, 9 Gore Gruntas, 3 Warchantes, 30 Ardboys, 25 Brutes, 2 Weirdnob Shamans (plus a handful of naked orks and a growing kruleboyz force).

My 1500pt list was: 1MK, 2 warchanters, a unit of 6 pigs and 3 MSU units of brutes. Played against Tzeentch and it was a killer. Single drop. Get turn 2 and smash everything. Worked beautifully.

I am unsure about how to go up to 2k. At present, I believe the dual cababge plus pig spam list to possibly be the most competitive thing we have. Do you think just adding Brutes and a Footboss in a Choppas or Ironsunz list would be good? Should I also take the 3 remaining pigs? Am I doomed to buy another cabbage, and shed tears and blood on thousands of angry pigs?

 

 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

Am I missing something here?

How many units of pigs can you WC buff at once.

[Kasper]

3 minutes ago, Malakree said:

How many units of pigs can you WC buff at once.

So your point being that Brutes are only good in Choppas then? I feel like this discussion is dishonest and pointless tbh.

[Backbreaker]

39 minutes ago, Kasper said:

So your point being that Brutes are only good in Choppas then? I feel like this discussion is dishonest and pointless tbh.

Absolutely not, both are good. But when played in Choppas, I think Brutes are better. Even if you consider the Gruntas played in Bloodtooth.

They are not the same unit and they both have their uses.

Another point is that when Brutes are played with their 2" weapon, they loose an attack and gain 1 rend. But the Gruntas in your example are using their 1" weapon, which can be an issue with their base.

Overall, to each their own, I think both work and both will see the tabletop often  

[Orkmann]

In my eyes the main weakness of IJ in AoS2 was the lack rend. The only solution to deal with tanky armies used to be the cabbage with the metalrippa and hero phase fighting (against OBR). These options are gone now, so the extra rend of the brutes comes very handy. 

Based on point cost and mathhamer, the gruntas are the most effecient in the army, which makes them a great generalist unit, esp due to their speed. I consider the brutes more of a specialist unit to deal with tanky targets. So in terms of list building, I like to take a unit of 10 brutes, arboyz to fill out the remaining bline slots (in Ironsunz) and as many MSU pigz as possible.

[Malakree]

5 hours ago, Kasper said:

So your point being that Brutes are only good in Choppas then? I feel like this discussion is dishonest and pointless tbh.

I mean, I was pretty clear when I gave my rundown that I think in Bloodtoofs I'd run GG's, in Da Choppas I'd run Brutes and that in Ironsunz I'd run my 2 cabbages with primarily Ardboys.

Personally I don't think you can run 2 cabbages and a unit of 10 Brutes as you have neither the anvil required to pick your moment and the Brutes can't hard initiate like the cabbages meaning you hit in 2 waves. So the only time I'd run a unit of 10 Brutes is if I'm running only a single cabbage in which case I'd be running multiple units in Da Choppas.

The only time you would be comparing vanilla Brutes vs vanilla GG's is in Ironsunz and at that point you're actually looking at counter engage so the anvil becomes way more important, hence Ardboys.

EDIT:

2 hours ago, Orkmann said:

In my eyes the main weakness of IJ in AoS2 was the lack rend. The only solution to deal with tanky armies used to be the cabbage with the metalrippa and hero phase fighting (against OBR). These options are gone now, so the extra rend of the brutes comes very handy. 

Based on point cost and mathhamer, the gruntas are the most effecient in the army, which makes them a great generalist unit, esp due to their speed. I consider the brutes more of a specialist unit to deal with tanky targets. So in terms of list building, I like to take a unit of 10 brutes, arboyz to fill out the remaining bline slots (in Ironsunz) and as many MSU pigz as possible.

I realise this isn't possible for everyone but I would 100% run a second cabbage before I ran GG's outside of Bloodtoofs and their value in Bloodtoofs comes from the allegiance which lets you go over the top then tie down key enemy targets.

Bloodtoofs Alphastrikes.
Da Choppas does heavy infantry wave.
Ironsunz does counter engage/initiation.

It should be pointed out that a lot of my reductionism comes out of the fact that MK's are now so unbelievably good. If you want a generic hammer then you take an MK over everything else, I would seriously consider fielding 3 in a tournament for a fun list which isn't 100% gimped.

EDIT2:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- General
- Command Trait: Skilled Leader
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- Artefact: Armour of Gork
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Warchanter (115)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (160)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
Drops: 8

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Malakree

[broche]

8 hours ago, Kasper said:

As I wrote, it might be a case of local metas being different, but literally nobody are playing mass Pinks or whatever here in either clubs that I play in. At most some Tzeentch lists have 10 Pinks because they usually want to fill it with support for Archaon or mass casters or whatever, but a single unit is easy enough to deal with and dont "require" Brutes at all. If someone is playing 40 Pinks in Australia I dont really care since it isnt affecting me in EU, yet. 

Yes the damage of Brutes is superior to Pigs but the gulf between them dont seem big enough mathhammer wise to give up the increased mobility. People are drooling over the "rend 2 is king" thing but mathhammer wise it doesnt seem THAT much stronger? 

So there are obviously a lot of factors that can be at play here. This is just 5 Brutes (3 with Gore-Hackas, 1 Gore-choppa and 1 Boss Klaw) vs 3 Pigs. Both have warchanter buff. I didnt factor in the +1 to hit for the Brutes because the arguement is the objective play (i.e fighting 1 wound models) rather than overall damage potential - You can always give the Pigs +1 from AoA anyways and it will be about the same increase.

Lets assume you are fighting something with a 4+ base save that got +2 to save from Mystic Shield and AoD or whatever (ignoring rend 2 then), this would mean the Pigs are doing 9,33 damage to the unit because the targeted unit will be on a 3+ save meanwhile the Brutes will do 11,83 damage because they ignore the +2 save so they are hitting against the 4+ base save. Its a bit scuffed because the Boss Klaw is only rend 1, so should be hitting on a 3+ target too but I pooled everything into one profile, lets give the Brutes this edge and its probably minor anyways.

So Brutes are ahead here but we are missing the very likely 2 MWs from 3x 3+ impact hits from the Pigs, so a more realistic picture would be that they are doing 2+9,33 = 11,33 damage. 

So the mathhammer picture leans in favor of Brutes the better save the target has and obviously leans towards the Pigs as you fight targets with worse saves like Zombies or most other horde units in general. 

 

1. They are identical points (pretty much)
2. Brutes DO more damage, but mathhammer proves the damage is not as big as people make it out to be
3. Pigs have significantly superior mobility

 

Am I missing something here?

with 4+ and +2 to save gruntas actually do more damage than rend 2 brutes (like 7,4). Rend 2 agains +2 save is kind of the worst scenario for brutes. With 4+ and +1 save they break even. However it's worth mentionning that Gruntas benefit much more from the Warchanter than Brutes (who already have 2 damages attack). On pure damage Gruntas are just better. There's however much more to consider.

1. Brutes are generic battleline so much more versatile

2. the +1 to hit from Brutes agains 4 wound and up. Yes you can have AoA but it's cost command point and it's limited to 1 per combat phase

3. The damage per area: getting 6 pig doing all their attack can be quite tricky due to base size. 10 brutes with 2'', every model will attack almost everytime.

4. Brutes ability: Still unclear to me at this point, but this can certainly be potent. Depending on meta, this can win you games or be useless.

5. In Choppa: Spending Warchanter on 3 units (brutes/ardboys) vs 1 units (Gruntas) doesn't have the same value)

So for me they have their role, and will definitly see play. What i currently like with Ironjawz is that their seem to be multiple interesting list option (as opposed to Bonesplitterz where you're stuck with Pig and Icebone)

 

 

 

[Orkmann]

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

I realise this isn't possible for everyone but I would 100% run a second cabbage before I ran GG's outside of Bloodtoofs and their value in Bloodtoofs comes from the allegiance which lets you go over the top then tie down key enemy targets.

Bloodtoofs Alphastrikes.
Da Choppas does heavy infantry wave.
Ironsunz does counter engage/initiation.

It's not only about the alpha, gruntas are great for trading/skirmishing due to their speed. For instance in situations when some chaff is holding an objective which you need to take but you also know that whoever goes there will be dead in your opponents turn / or you simply not ready to fully commit.

This is very much up to your playstyle, but running two cabbages feels like I'm too thin on the ground. Funnily this is exactly the same debate we used to have around the old book, only difference is that now the choice is btw single or double cabbage instead of taking one or none 🙂.

The jury is still out there for the new book, but I believe with the old book the none-cabbage version was the more competitive choice.

[Vastianos]

I ran a couple of games against Stormcast and Daughters. My list was:

Ironsunz

Maw-krusha, general, AoD

Maw-krusha, Fast 'Un, Destroyer

Warchanter

Wachanter

1x6 Pigs

1x10 brutes

2x 5 'ardboys

Battle regiment and hunters for the Pigs and brutes.

Both games went about the same way. Forced second with no doubles but the damage of the maw's and the Pigs meant on each of my turns I got to smashing and bashing everything I had engaged. Brutes spent most of the game not engaged due to poor movement and got whittled down as they sat on a objective. The ardboyz were great for preventing deepstrikes and as a screen/lookout sir for the warchanters.

Overall I was surprised how effective fielding a bunch of hammers went, but with smashing and bashing offense may truly be the ultimate defence.

 

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Orkmann said:

It's not only about the alpha, gruntas are great for trading/skirmishing due to their speed. For instance in situations when some chaff is holding an objective which you need to take but you also know that whoever goes there will be dead in your opponents turn / or you simply not ready to fully commit.

This is very much up to your playstyle, but running two cabbages feels like I'm too thin on the ground. Funnily this is exactly the same debate we used to have around the old book, only difference is that now the choice is btw single or double cabbage instead of taking one or none 🙂.

My point being that you hit them hard and fast then use the bloodtoofs to mess up their ability to respond properly. Everything after this assumes you are NOT bloodtoofs since if you are GGs trump everything.

The double cabbage being thin on the ground is why I would run it with lots of ardboys rather than with a block of brutes. You simply don't need the 3 hammers and can't even support them properly with your WCs. What you need is the ability to be able to pick your moment rather than being forced to act straight away, for that ardboys are and always will be your best option.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)**
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Skilled Leader
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Armour of Gork
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)**
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)*
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork

Battleline
15 x Orruk Ardboys (255)**
- Reinforced x 2
15 x Orruk Ardboys (255)**
- Reinforced x 2
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)**
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)**

Endless Spells & Invocations
Prismatic Palisade (40)

Core Battalions
*Command Entourage - Magnificent
**Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Wounds: 134
Drops: 4

Something like this gives you the presence to be able to push forward onto the board while threatening counter engages with the MK's even in your opponents turns if they aren't careful. Not only that but the ability to rally the Ardboys back means that half killing a unit is really dangerous for your opponent. If you position a unit of 15 in a T shape it's possible to have the front which are within 3" killed off while the back is now able to rally. Obviously it'll be a little awkward to do properly but the threat of it is massive.

[Warmill]

Just had 2 real feels-bad games against a stormcast list, both ganes were over turn 2.

 

My list:

2 krushas, 1 general with amulet and impact hits CT, 1 with armour of gork and fast un.

2 chanters

2x5 brutes

1x15 ardboyz

1x3 gruntas

Madcap shaman

Ironsunz

 

His list:

Gardus steelsoul

Lord relictor

6 longstrikes

4 fulminator dracoths (spears)

3x5 libs

2 chariots

1x3 aetherwings

 

Battleplan was feral foray. Game 1 he made me go first, I MD the ardboyz and brutes then move everything up with the krushas positioned for a counter charge. He hero phase shoots the ardboyz and only does 5 damage, then shoots the AoG krusha, i roll 10 4+ saves, fail 8 then only roll 1 6++ to take 15 damage. Fulmis charge in and split attacks, I roll 7 4+ saves against the spears on the krusha and fail all of them 🙄 while 8 more ardboyz go down. At this point he wins prio turn 2 and we call it to rerack.

 

Game 2 I test going ham with the krushas, general hits the fulmis while the AoG hits some aetherwings and libs. After both swing I've killed a total of 1 fulmi and 1 liberator, and take the last wound of the aetherwings that had survived 8 krusha shots and a 5mw stomp. His turn 1 he kills my general and beats the other krusha down to 9 wounds left while my krusha manages to do 3 wounds to a chariot. I win prio t2 and take it, charge in the ardboyz and 5 brutes. By the end of my turn 2 the other krusha is dead, 5 brutes failed to charge a chariot, the ardboyz did 3 damage to a fulmi and nothing to a unit of libs, while the 5 brutes did 3 damage to the same libs. We called it before he took his turn 2.

 

Overall it felt terrible, he was rolling real hot on the armour saves and 5++ aura from gardus steel soul while I couldn't roll to save me life, but it really felt like a no win situation. 30" range on the longstrikes, a teleport, the speedy chariots and the fulmis meant I couldn't stay back and wait for him to unpack his castle, while all of his stuff was on a 3+ save and the 5++ aura stopped the few attacks that managed to get through. The krushas were absolutely terrible, losing the impact hits for the stomp is a major nerf however you cut it, especially now you can't do them in the hero phase or double stack it, and rend 1 just doesn't cut it against that kind of armour. I had hopes for the 15 ardboy rally blob but the amount of rend 2 damage 2 he had meant they were barely a speedbump. I enjoyed the first couple of games with the new book, but this just really knocked the shine off them.

 

[Orkmann]

27 minutes ago, Warmill said:

Just had 2 real feels-bad games against a stormcast list, both ganes were over turn 2.

Sounds rough man, hero phase shooting sucks, but thanks for sharing. What I'm seeing is that these sort of shooty castle builds are all over the place, thats why I prefer the one cabbage, 2 drop builds. Not helping against LRL or other one drop stuff, but if I have the turn choice I just screen out the heroes, give away the turn and an exciting t2 priority is guaranteed.

[Boggler]

Here is the list I am running tomorrow to practice for my weekend tournament. The command trait can be anything really. Mission is The Vice. Opponent is Stormcast. It could be 12 drop. Could be Command for the CP and Artefact. Could be Hunters...

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Skilled Leader
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers

Units
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (85)
3 x Morgok's Krushas (90)

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 157
Drops: 12
 

and here is the other list I am running. Its two drop and relies on two 10 man units of Ardboys to hold onto some positions. The GG's do their thing. Sadly, I only have one MBMK. I could go with more GG's but I want to try them in MSU units of 3.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Skilled Leader
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)*
- 2x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)*
- 2x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 160
Drops: 2
 

 

[Tezia99]

19 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

I just didnt mention the 2x5 ardboys thats all, I posted the list a bit earlier, but it is 2 MKs, 2 Chanters, 10 brutes, 2x5 ardboyz and 2x3 gruntas, so it is legal  

 

I would agree there is a play for lots of brutes, perhaps even a lot of MSU units in da choppas with perhaps 2-3 warchanters. Brutes are not that hard to kill, but wave after wave is a problem for anyone, and even 5 with violent fury do some really nasty work, although 10 can still take a few hits and dish back the pain and/or more likely to trigger a smashing and bashing. Might even go with footboss and a MK. The MK will be a prime target, so might even consider the footboss the general and go for mega bossy, then from these 2 alone it would be possible to double move up to 5 units to give the slower brutes some momentum up the board.

I’ve been loving Da Choppas. I use a 10 man ardboys unit and 2 5 man brutes as my “screen” and keep 10 mans behind them within 3” as a come get some deterrent. With 2 warchanters, everything is getting buffed with fury. 

[5kaven5lave]

Having another bash with my BW list tonight, rematch vs Stormcast dragons. Lost pretty handily last time round but do feel I was a touch unlucky at key points of the game(!).

Anyway, in come 5 more Brutes and MSU pigs, we’ll see how it goes down:

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: 
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Touched by the Waaagh!  
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
- Lore of the Weird: Foot of Gork
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Gobsprakk, The Mouth of Mork (300)**
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)**
- Lore of the Swamp: Sneaky Miasma
- Lore of the Swamp: Choking Mist
Wardokk (80)**
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
- Universal Spell Lore: Levitate
5 x Orruk Ardboys (160)**
5 x Orruk Ardboys (160)*
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
Beast-skewer Killbow (130)*
*Battle Regiment
**Warlord
Spell

Total: 2150 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 134
Drops: 5
 

[Andrew G]

19 hours ago, Warmill said:

 

Overall it felt terrible, he was rolling real hot on the armour saves and 5++ aura from gardus steel soul while I couldn't roll to save me life, but it really felt like a no win situation. 30" range on the longstrikes, a teleport, the speedy chariots and the fulmis meant I couldn't stay back and wait for him to unpack his castle, while all of his stuff was on a 3+ save and the 5++ aura stopped the few attacks that managed to get through. The krushas were absolutely terrible, losing the impact hits for the stomp is a major nerf however you cut it, especially now you can't do them in the hero phase or double stack it, and rend 1 just doesn't cut it against that kind of armour. I had hopes for the 15 ardboy rally blob but the amount of rend 2 damage 2 he had meant they were barely a speedbump. I enjoyed the first couple of games with the new book, but this just really knocked the shine off them.

 

Over half the competitive meta in my area is castle armies ( Lumineth and Seraphon being the first that come to mind) and it sounds like the first game is the classic trap of, " I don't alpha strike, I take up board space and positions T1". I'd really like to play in a meta where that's feasible, but those armies put you on the clock T1 and if you don't start peeling screens and/or locking down their ranged projection T1, it's over. 

Second game sounds like it just came to an output problem, which I've also been dealing a lot with first hand (One of the best guys in my area runs Syar- Teclis- Lumineth usually translating into most of army being -1 to hit, +1 to base armor and ignoring rend as needed, with a 5++ on top). You either need to decide if it was a truly a dice problem ( I don't want to do the math), or if you need to switch up your list so you either A) You can actually crack their anvils/clear screens B) Knowing you can't crack them but still need to start peeling, try to minimize the amount of points you're exposing to counter-charges. 

Point B is why Bloodtoofs is so good right now, and why I think double MK is a trap. Not getting into the wound/output differences between 15 brutes/9 gruntas vs. an MK,  but not being able to be as granular with what you're commiting and only having two warchanters means that if anything remotely tanky needs to be killed you need to expose your MK/MKs.

I was definitely in the no-MK camp last edition for somewhat adjacent reasons. I'm always hesitant having my synergy piece also be my hammer, but obviously eased off that because I do think this edition fooboss+ 6 pigs < first MK. First MK value is  much higher value compared to the second one (Amulet, Mount Trait, going from 0 to 1 monster matters way more than going from 1 to 2 for battle tactics, they can't bait out all defense and then switch to the other Mk, etc.) 

Just my two cents, hope you get some better games in soon. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Andrew G

[PlasticCraic]

On 9/29/2021 at 10:53 AM, Vastianos said:

Think you will also do one for Big Waagh? I read all of your articles and play all the green boyz so very interested on your thoughts on what the Big Waagh might look like competitively.

Sorry mate I've been unwell, no post this week 😥  Hopefully back next week

[Boggler]

21 hours ago, Andrew G said:

Over half the competitive meta in my area is castle armies ( Lumineth and Seraphon being the first that come to mind) and it sounds like the first game is the classic trap of, " I don't alpha strike, I take up board space and positions T1". I'd really like to play in a meta where that's feasible, but those armies put you on the clock T1 and if you don't start peeling screens and/or locking down their ranged projection T1, it's over.

I just finished a 2k game vs Stormcast. He had 30 libs, 4 Fulmns, 6 Longstike, Gardus,  The mission was The Vice.

I had planned on going with my first list:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Skilled Leader
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers

Units
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (85)
3 x Morgok's Krushas (90)

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 157
Drops: 12

but then at the last second decided to go with:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Skilled Leader
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)*
- 2x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)*
- 2x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 160
Drops: 2

Hindsight 20/20. I wished that I had those exta smaller units to screen the backfield though its pretty uncommon for the backfield to be so big as it is in The Vice. I lost the game 17-15. I could have totally won if I played better. Here are some thoughts:

Stormcast are buffed now. WoW Liberators. 4+ save becomes 3+ vs Ardboys, GL with that. I can't kill you. You can't kill me, except if I kill you during Waaagh then you fight back and kill me and or splash me with Mortals when you die. Ardboyz Bravery was a huge problem. I rolled a 5/6 a few times and lost a guy or two more than once. I also used Inspiring Presence a few times!

Deployment for The Vice was a bit of a standoff. I got to choose who went first. We both Castled up. I kept the 2 units of 3 pigs in the back to get the objective. Everything else was outside 36" of his Longstrikes. I gave him first turn. He did nothing but move forward his screens and run the longstrikes up. In my turn, I moved some units around so that I could possibly MD a few units to charge in next turn. the two units of 3 pigs took both flanks and threatened the longstrikes.

I won the roll for T2, gave him the turn. He moved up some more with the screens but didn't realize how far 18" was. The pigs could move around the side of one screen and hit the Fulms if I wanted. They had to survive that Unleash Hell though... 4 4+ D3 mortals is so good. He used Gardus to shoot the Longstrikes in the Hero Phase at the unit of 6 pigs killing two of them. Then his Longstrikes shot at the 3 pigs threatening them. He did 14 wounds leave the boss on 1 wound, lol, he will be super usefull later.

In my T2 I decided that it was now or never for the Waaaagh. He had a lot of Liberators to get through but I was confident that I could get the 3 pigs and both units of 10 Ardboys into combat. I was successful. The lone GG charged into the Fulms, eating the Unleash Hell. He died well, the other 3 smashed into the Fulms doing 3 mortals, which became 1 mortal after Gardus 5+ ignore. After combat the 3 GG were only able to kill 1 Fulm. Even with AAA. Fulms 3+ save became a 2+ with AAD then the waaagh made it a 4+. Uggghhh. The Gardus 5+ ignore lol... The Fulms and another screening unit of Libs killed two pigs, the last pig fled to battleshock. The 20 Ardboys got about 18 into 1" range and managed to kill only 1 Liberator total. I rolled a lot of dice to make that happen. I would prefer to roll less dice next time and actually kill something but if this is their new roll then I will have to learn to live with it. Wow. The Ardboys did bad. Or maybe they did good because they were still in their combat going in to T4/5 when he killed the last of them. I guess they are now a tarpit? Ugh, I remember the days when they had output!

T3 He won the rolloff and decided to kill my MBMK. He tele'd the Fulms near the MBMK, which he can do on a 3+ then they can move in the MV phase. My MBMK made his 5 on Redeploy making it an 8 charge. The damage came from shooting, the MBMK took 4 mortals and failed 7/8 4+ saves taking 18 wounds from the Longstrikes. Lucky I made 6 5+'s with the only Artifact you'll ever need but the MBMK was crippled and I was shocked at the damage. At least he did 5 mortals to a Fulm at the end of the Charge phase! killing one and leaving only two left. The MBMK died, but only just barely like I need 2/3 5+ saves on the final dice, lol! The other combats were the Ardboys vs the Liberators. OMG lots of dice! OMG not much going on! At least one unit of Ardboys even had the Warchanter helping buff them but those saves and the lack of rend made for some sad faces.

In my turn I buffed up the 10 man Brutes, these guys could easily get in to the Fulms. The 4 pig unit went in to his backfield to charge the Longstrikes. I was feeling good. All ten Brutes made it in to combat with the Fulms. They only killed one. One Fulm. Ten +1 dam 2" -2 rend Brutes did 6 wounds to a Fulm, lol... The 4 pigs smashed in to the Longstrikes doing 4 mortals, and killing two guys! Then they got Unleashed on and two died, the remaining two did absolutely nothing to the Longstrikes, not even a wound, then they got attack by some Libs and I lost another pig. The last one flew to BS... Wow. I was like wtf really, that happened? The beginning of the turn I was so confident that I would kill both of his hammers... I killed none of them... with my two hammers... bad luck I guess.

The rest of the game was just a formality. I still scored some and him some. The Ardboys finally died. The Brutes lived until the end and wound up running asway so he couldn't get my Hold the Line pts. What a game! The only time I was ever able to kill a whole unit and set off Smashing and Bashing was when a Warchanter decided to charge a unit of 3 Aetherwings. In every other situation I just bounced off the armor.

Thanks for reading. Its not the same army. Its go tricks and is super fast. Losing the MBMK was a big shock for me but I'll do better next time.

[Warmill]

2 hours ago, Boggler said:

I just finished a 2k game vs Stormcast. He had 30 libs, 4 Fulmns, 6 Longstike, Gardus,  The mission was The Vice.

I had planned on going with my first list:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Skilled Leader
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers

Units
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (85)
3 x Morgok's Krushas (90)

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 157
Drops: 12

but then at the last second decided to go with:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Skilled Leader
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)*
- 2x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)*
- 2x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 160
Drops: 2

Hindsight 20/20. I wished that I had those exta smaller units to screen the backfield though its pretty uncommon for the backfield to be so big as it is in The Vice. I lost the game 17-15. I could have totally won if I played better. Here are some thoughts:

Stormcast are buffed now. WoW Liberators. 4+ save becomes 3+ vs Ardboys, GL with that. I can't kill you. You can't kill me, except if I kill you during Waaagh then you fight back and kill me and or splash me with Mortals when you die. Ardboyz Bravery was a huge problem. I rolled a 5/6 a few times and lost a guy or two more than once. I also used Inspiring Presence a few times!

Deployment for The Vice was a bit of a standoff. I got to choose who went first. We both Castled up. I kept the 2 units of 3 pigs in the back to get the objective. Everything else was outside 36" of his Longstrikes. I gave him first turn. He did nothing but move forward his screens and run the longstrikes up. In my turn, I moved some units around so that I could possibly MD a few units to charge in next turn. the two units of 3 pigs took both flanks and threatened the longstrikes.

I won the roll for T2, gave him the turn. He moved up some more with the screens but didn't realize how far 18" was. The pigs could move around the side of one screen and hit the Fulms if I wanted. They had to survive that Unleash Hell though... 4 4+ D3 mortals is so good. He used Gardus to shoot the Longstrikes in the Hero Phase at the unit of 6 pigs killing two of them. Then his Longstrikes shot at the 3 pigs threatening them. He did 14 wounds leave the boss on 1 wound, lol, he will be super usefull later.

In my T2 I decided that it was now or never for the Waaaagh. He had a lot of Liberators to get through but I was confident that I could get the 3 pigs and both units of 10 Ardboys into combat. I was successful. The lone GG charged into the Fulms, eating the Unleash Hell. He died well, the other 3 smashed into the Fulms doing 3 mortals, which became 1 mortal after Gardus 5+ ignore. After combat the 3 GG were only able to kill 1 Fulm. Even with AAA. Fulms 3+ save became a 2+ with AAD then the waaagh made it a 4+. Uggghhh. The Gardus 5+ ignore lol... The Fulms and another screening unit of Libs killed two pigs, the last pig fled to battleshock. The 20 Ardboys got about 18 into 1" range and managed to kill only 1 Liberator total. I rolled a lot of dice to make that happen. I would prefer to roll less dice next time and actually kill something but if this is their new roll then I will have to learn to live with it. Wow. The Ardboys did bad. Or maybe they did good because they were still in their combat going in to T4/5 when he killed the last of them. I guess they are now a tarpit? Ugh, I remember the days when they had output!

T3 He won the rolloff and decided to kill my MBMK. He tele'd the Fulms near the MBMK, which he can do on a 3+ then they can move in the MV phase. My MBMK made his 5 on Redeploy making it an 8 charge. The damage came from shooting, the MBMK took 4 mortals and failed 7/8 4+ saves taking 18 wounds from the Longstrikes. Lucky I made 6 5+'s with the only Artifact you'll ever need but the MBMK was crippled and I was shocked at the damage. At least he did 5 mortals to a Fulm at the end of the Charge phase! killing one and leaving only two left. The MBMK died, but only just barely like I need 2/3 5+ saves on the final dice, lol! The other combats were the Ardboys vs the Liberators. OMG lots of dice! OMG not much going on! At least one unit of Ardboys even had the Warchanter helping buff them but those saves and the lack of rend made for some sad faces.

In my turn I buffed up the 10 man Brutes, these guys could easily get in to the Fulms. The 4 pig unit went in to his backfield to charge the Longstrikes. I was feeling good. All ten Brutes made it in to combat with the Fulms. They only killed one. One Fulm. Ten +1 dam 2" -2 rend Brutes did 6 wounds to a Fulm, lol... The 4 pigs smashed in to the Longstrikes doing 4 mortals, and killing two guys! Then they got Unleashed on and two died, the remaining two did absolutely nothing to the Longstrikes, not even a wound, then they got attack by some Libs and I lost another pig. The last one flew to BS... Wow. I was like wtf really, that happened? The beginning of the turn I was so confident that I would kill both of his hammers... I killed none of them... with my two hammers... bad luck I guess.

The rest of the game was just a formality. I still scored some and him some. The Ardboys finally died. The Brutes lived until the end and wound up running asway so he couldn't get my Hold the Line pts. What a game! The only time I was ever able to kill a whole unit and set off Smashing and Bashing was when a Warchanter decided to charge a unit of 3 Aetherwings. In every other situation I just bounced off the armor.

Thanks for reading. Its not the same army. Its go tricks and is super fast. Losing the MBMK was a big shock for me but I'll do better next time.

Glad to see it's not just me then, your matchup was very similar to mine with pretty much the same results. We just don't hit like we used to except in that one waaagh turn. Losing access to a metalrippa krusha for reliable output is just huge.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Warmill

[Tizianolol]

Guys a rule question. With my megaboss ability to pick 2 units instead of 1 when I use a command point for a command ability, can I give to 2 units like all out attack or all out defence? Thx all

[Malakree]

7 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys a rule question. With my megaboss ability to pick 2 units instead of 1 when I use a command point for a command ability, can I give to 2 units like all out attack or all out defence? Thx all

Yes.

[Boggler]

Thanks for the love.

To add to my post above.

My Tactics were:

Ferocious Advance - Success!

Monstrous Takeover - Success!

Broken Ranks - Success!

Savage Spearhead - Success!

Conquest - Fail!

Those are the five tactics that I would normally try and complete. They seem the easiest to me and can be done in any order. Bring it Down can replace any of these situationally of course! Same with Slay the Warlord.

We are not really in a bad place, just different tactics must be used, and more minis need to be purchased and assembled and then painted... Waaaagh!!!

[Warmill]

43 minutes ago, Boggler said:

Thanks for the love.

To add to my post above.

My Tactics were:

Ferocious Advance - Success!

Monstrous Takeover - Success!

Broken Ranks - Success!

Savage Spearhead - Success!

Conquest - Fail!

Those are the five tactics that I would normally try and complete. They seem the easiest to me and can be done in any order. Bring it Down can replace any of these situationally of course! Same with Slay the Warlord.

We are not really in a bad place, just different tactics must be used, and more minis need to be purchased and assembled and then painted... Waaaagh!!!

This is kind of my problem, I don't want ij  to win by playing for battle tactics and scoring vps here and there with spare and beaten up units, I want them to win by destroying my opponent in combat by turn 2 😆

[Tizianolol]

5 hours ago, Malakree said:

Yes.

This is super strong! Nice thx!