AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[broche]

2 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

I am completely lost! List building is really different and I don't know what direction to take. Gore Gruntas took a massive hit and I'm not sure they are the shock cavalry I used to like. Between Choppa and Ironsunz, I don't what to pick. I will have to buy new models, my 2000 points list is 1775 points now and it was an MSU to get +2 attacks with the waaagh.

Overall, it seems that playing two Krushas is the way to go. I need to proxy some way another Krusha.

Not sure why you consider Gruntas to have take a massive hit they seem perfectly fine to me (only change is their bravery drop down by 1 but their mortal output is better and they now count as 2 models for objectives)

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Was Rally ever a factor for them?

I used it once but I only had 1 unit of 10 and the 2 units of 5 spent all their time screening my objectives etc. The one time I did use I got 3 of the 4 back, it almost entirely negated a round of shooting they had taken.

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

I am completely lost! List building is really different and I don't know what direction to take. Gore Gruntas took a massive hit and I'm not sure they are the shock cavalry I used to like. Between Choppa and Ironsunz, I don't what to pick. I will have to buy new models, my 2000 points list is 1775 points now and it was an MSU to get +2 attacks with the waaagh.

Overall, it seems that playing two Krushas is the way to go. I need to proxy some way another Krusha.

Goregruntas weren't touched at all offence wise. The Ironjawz Waaagh! is enormous for them as having 2 rend on the choppas and 1 on the boars is dirty as hell.

Add onto that the bloodtoofs ability and if I had 18 painted I would be taking them to the next event. I think part of the problem is that once you go bloodtoofs they are so much better that you really only want to be taking 2 units of 5 ardboys for home protection and even then 3gg's fill that role fine.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Malakree

[Scurvydog]

Looking into this list, possibly finally buying the mawcrusha nr 2. I can see why mighty waagh leader will not come into play much, Mega bossy will allow more of the army to move ahead quickly right away, getting both warchanters and brutes with 1 and the 2 MKs and a grunta unit with the other for example, it gives a lot of efficient movement from the getgo, and should be worth a trait alone for that. I am unsure about going 6 gruntas or 2x3, but the brutes are intended as a second wave, while ardboyz are used as initial screens and objective grabbers, the gruntas in the 2x3 setup will skirmish ahead

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Armour of Gork
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Mega Bossy
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)**
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 2x Gore Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)*
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)*
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands
Artefact

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 128
Drops: 9

[Kasper]

7 hours ago, ShaneHobbes said:

10 Brutes with gore-hackas with a +1D buff during Waaagh is so stupid I love it. 2x10 Brutes will be in every list. They delete everything they touch.

How do you deal with coherency with them though? I havent mapped it out in person but the big bases sound bad with a 10 man squad. 

[ShaneHobbes]

2 minutes ago, Kasper said:

How do you deal with coherency with them though? I havent mapped it out in person but the big bases sound bad with a 10 man squad. 

2" reach makes coherency less of an issue

[Andrew G]

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

Goregruntas weren't touched at all offence wise. The Ironjawz Waaagh! is enormous for them as having 2 rend on the choppas and 1 on the boars is dirty as hell.

Add onto that the bloodtoofs ability and if I had 18 painted I would be taking them to the next event. I think part of the problem is that once you go bloodtoofs they are so much better that you really only want to be taking 2 units of 5 ardboys for home protection and even then 3gg's fill that role fine.

Agreed. Current list I'm playing actually runs 6x2 and 3x3 for 21 total. The insane ****** you can pull off with GGs in bloodtoofs is making some of my normal opponents rip their hair out. One of the main weaknesses of this type of style in the past was Gorefist/ Waaagh stacking incentivized more of an "all-in" playstyle compared to now.

If you're good at mental math, you can commit just enough T1 to clear all screens and then lockdown all their key pieces, completely protect against the initiative roll outcome, and come in for a killing blow T2 with some of the best hammers in the game. 

edit* Probably worth mentioning that being able to threaten a T1 complete alpha-strike makes your opponent deploy sub-optimally in the worst case, and in the best case you'll win a few games outright from seemingly small deployment mistakes from your opponent. 

We're about as strong as we've ever been. Good time to be a gore grunta loving IJ player. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Andrew G

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, ShaneHobbes said:

2" reach makes coherency less of an issue

Hmm I guess 2” is massive and easily allows them to fight in 2 Ranks. Might give them a go tbh! 

Quite liking the list below. Got two “pairs” with a MK + 3 Pigs being buffed and sent forward. Second pair waiting for next wave. Brutes are cleanup crew. 

Been playing with 6 heroes previously but those last 2 guys are essentially alot of wasted wounds considering our units are so cheap now. 

I do miss having access to Mystic Shield. 🤨

List Name: Ironjawz
Allegiance: Orruk Warclans
- Subfaction: Ironsunz
- Army Type: Ironjawz
- Grand Strategy: 
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
----------
Megaboss on Maw-krusha (480 pts)+
Orruk Warchanter (115 pts)+
Orruk Warchanter (115 pts)+
Megaboss on Maw-krusha (General) (480 pts)

Battleline
----------
Orruk Ardboys (85 pts)+
Orruk Brutes (320 pts)++
- Reinforced: Once
Orruk Ardboys (85 pts)

Units
----------
Orruk Gore-gruntas (150 pts)++
Orruk Gore-gruntas (150 pts)++

Artillery
----------

Behemoth
----------

Endless Spells & Invocations
----------

Core Battalions
----------
Warlord+
- Bonus Enhancement: Artefact of Power
Hunters of the Heartlands++

Total Points: 1980 pts

[Newtype_Zero]

So I'm trying to workout which Bloodtoofs list would be better to run for a few upcoming games - any input here?

List 1

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Mortal Realm: Aqshy
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Mega Bossy
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)**
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)**
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1940 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123
Drops: 2

List 1 Points:

Fast 'un mount trait for my Krusha with the hacka and choppa will basically let me ensure that I can get him where I need to him to be turn 1 with the extra move action. Additionally, with the range MBoMKs have for Mighty Destroyers since they have the Totem keyword, I could, in theory, use Fast 'un to move him closer an opponent's squad (ideally within charge range) then MD and still be in range of 2 GG squads to move them up as well while being able to charge the boss.

The extra Warchanter gets me an additional VF to either put on my frontline MBoMK or a 2nd GG squad.

And, much as I hate a 60 point float, it pretty much locks me in to get Bloodthirsty every game.

List 2

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Mortal Realm: Aqshy
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Mega Bossy
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)**
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)**
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)*
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133
Drops: 2

List 2 Points

Weirdnob - hi Mystic Shield!

Ardboys for some backline defense.

[ccconner777]

5 hours ago, Kasper said:

Hmm I guess 2” is massive and easily allows them to fight in 2 Ranks. Might give them a go tbh! 
 

Yep the 2" reach makes coherency only a minor annoyance. Even in the last book 10 brutes with 2 inch weapons were a scary block of death, but they were just overshadowed by ardboys efficiency i think. Now that they have more rend and invalidate 1 wound models on objectives im very excited to get them back on the table. Plus the ability to mighty destroyers multiple units is huge for brutes

[Kasper]

2 hours ago, ccconner777 said:

Yep the 2" reach makes coherency only a minor annoyance. Even in the last book 10 brutes with 2 inch weapons were a scary block of death, but they were just overshadowed by ardboys efficiency i think. Now that they have more rend and invalidate 1 wound models on objectives im very excited to get them back on the table. Plus the ability to mighty destroyers multiple units is huge for brutes

Yeah I'll probably MD Brutes + GG + MK first turn and then have the Brutes run in the movement. Should send them flying to where they need to be for a countercharge in Ironsunz or ready for turn 2 really.

[Skumbaagh]

Just want to say how glad I am to be back in the IJ forums and see the old faces again! Malakree, andrew G, broche, plastic Craic and others! You guys have made my Orctober! These discussions are extremely helpful, thank you for putting in the time into this.

I'll be lurking around! 

[Backbreaker]

15 hours ago, broche said:

Not sure why you consider Gruntas

 

15 hours ago, Malakree said:

Goregruntas weren't touched at all offence wise

Wait, you still get +1 to hit and to wound on the charge? I really must be blind haha!

 

I told you, I'm lost with this new battletome ^^

[Kasper]

55 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:

 

Wait, you still get +1 to hit and to wound on the charge? I really must be blind haha!

 

I told you, I'm lost with this new battletome ^^

The spears lost the +1/+1 on the charge, but the pigs are now baseline 3/3 instead of 4/4. So spears do less damage with melee attacks but the impact hits were improved from a 4+ to a 2+ with spears. 

[Backbreaker]

4 minutes ago, Kasper said:

The spears lost the +1/+1 on the charge, but the pigs are now baseline 3/3 instead of 4/4. So spears do less damage with melee attacks but the impact hits were improved from a 4+ to a 2+ with spears.

Oh... well then, they lost A LOT. And they are definitely not a shock cavalry anymore for me.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Backbreaker said:

 

Wait, you still get +1 to hit and to wound on the charge? I really must be blind haha!

 

I told you, I'm lost with this new battletome ^^

Just checked. The pigs don't get +1/+1 on charge but they are 3+/3+ now instead of 4+/4+. So the charge bonus was just added as standard.

Also I never used the spears so forgot about that.

On the other side flat mortals on the charge has way better synergies with the bloodtoofs buff while the spears were competing against the +1 attack on axes anyway. 

Overall I'd say they actually got better not worse.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Malakree

[Scurvydog]

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

Just checked. The pigs don't get +1/+1 on charge but they are 3+/3+ now instead of 4+/4+. So the charge bonus was just added as standard.

Also I never used the spears so forgot about that.

On the other side flat mortals on the charge has way better synergies with the bloodtoofs buff while the spears were competing against the +1 attack on axes anyway. 

Overall I'd say they actually got better not worse.

Just 3 gruntas with violent fury during Waagh does around 21 damage against a 4+ save. Warbosses being able to might destroyer multiple units make Gruntas some of the fastest units in the game. Unless going for Mega Gargants a MK does not even need violent fury to dish out a lot of damage, 

With 2 warchanters, running the 2 MK, 2x3 guntas and 10 brutes list, I would probably buff up 1 MK and 1 grunta unit, alpha in the 2 MKs and the buffed gruntas in a way to maximize smashing and bashing potential. Those guys will probably be out of range for violent fury next hero phase, which is where the "backup" grunta unit and brutes can come in with wave 2 buffed up and ready to go.

[broche]

On 9/25/2021 at 10:43 AM, Boar said:

IMO you can use: Rally, Inspiring Presence, Unleash Hell (and book ones: Mighty Destroyers and Ironsunz one). Rest simply don't work with multiple targets at once as game sequencing (moving, charging, fighting one at time) result in situation where you can ever issue such CA to one unit.

Just worth mentioning, i noticed rally need to be issue by the Ardboyz champion to work on 4+ (MK can still use it on 3 but you'll stay at 6+)

[Skumbaagh]

5 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Just 3 gruntas with violent fury during Waagh does around 21 damage against a 4+ save. Warbosses being able to might destroyer multiple units make Gruntas some of the fastest units in the game. Unless going for Mega Gargants a MK does not even need violent fury to dish out a lot of damage, 

With 2 warchanters, running the 2 MK, 2x3 guntas and 10 brutes list, I would probably buff up 1 MK and 1 grunta unit, alpha in the 2 MKs and the buffed gruntas in a way to maximize smashing and bashing potential. Those guys will probably be out of range for violent fury next hero phase, which is where the "backup" grunta unit and brutes can come in with wave 2 buffed up and ready to go.

That list wouldnt be legal unless in blood toofs since gore gruntas are not battleline elsewhere. I struggle to write lists now with gruntas and a lot of brutes.

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Skumbaagh said:

That list wouldnt be legal unless in blood toofs since gore gruntas are not battleline elsewhere. I struggle to write lists now with gruntas and a lot of brutes.

I struggle to write lists with lots of Brutes period tbh. Their objective play is obviously amazing on paper but its semi worthless atm in this edition. It might be a local meta thing but tables arent swarmed with 1 wound models where I play. People are still hyped about monsters or in general bigger heroes etc. Many armies bring 3x 10 to fulfill battleline and thats it. You dont need Brutes to challenge that. 

The output of Brutes is great and better than Pigs, but the damage difference isnt large enough imo that it makes up for the inferior movement. Battle tactics really reinforce that speed is key and its important to get into certain places to complete the tactics instead of just swamping objectives.

I think lists need to have multiple big threats, so I could see 10 Brutes make up one threat if you arent bringing 2x MK, but I really dont value Brutes beyond that compared to filling out with Pigs/+3x 5 Ardboy for battleline. 

[idn0971]

8 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I struggle to write lists with lots of Brutes period tbh. Their objective play is obviously amazing on paper but its semi worthless atm in this edition. It might be a local meta thing but tables arent swarmed with 1 wound models where I play. People are still hyped about monsters or in general bigger heroes etc. Many armies bring 3x 10 to fulfill battleline and thats it. You dont need Brutes to challenge that. 

The output of Brutes is great and better than Pigs, but the damage difference isnt large enough imo that it makes up for the inferior movement. Battle tactics really reinforce that speed is key and its important to get into certain places to complete the tactics instead of just swamping objectives.

I think lists need to have multiple big threats, so I could see 10 Brutes make up one threat if you arent bringing 2x MK, but I really dont value Brutes beyond that compared to filling out with Pigs/+3x 5 Ardboy for battleline. 

The value of brutes for me is the rend -2 with the new book. Ironjawz always struggled with high armor saves and with the new edition and save stacking high rend is super important. Having a high damage unit that doesn't evaporate and get deal loads of -2 2 damage attacks is really helpful in the new edition. Brutes are for sure slower but the megaboss being able to issue 3 mighty destroyers at once means that you can move both a unit of brutes, a unit of gore gruntas, and a megaboss in the hero phase for one command point which is amazing.

[Malakree]

50 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I struggle to write lists with lots of Brutes period tbh. Their objective play is obviously amazing on paper but its semi worthless atm in this edition. It might be a local meta thing but tables arent swarmed with 1 wound models where I play. People are still hyped about monsters or in general bigger heroes etc. Many armies bring 3x 10 to fulfill battleline and thats it. You dont need Brutes to challenge that. 

The output of Brutes is great and better than Pigs, but the damage difference isnt large enough imo that it makes up for the inferior movement. Battle tactics really reinforce that speed is key and its important to get into certain places to complete the tactics instead of just swamping objectives.

I think lists need to have multiple big threats, so I could see 10 Brutes make up one threat if you arent bringing 2x MK, but I really dont value Brutes beyond that compared to filling out with Pigs/+3x 5 Ardboy for battleline. 

The thing about brute heavy lists is with da choppas you can buff multiple units of them at once. 3x10 brutes all with +1 damage from only one WC is terrifying in a way GGs never will be. The -2 rend and free +1 to hit vs big stuff guarantees they mince things with 4+ wounds while they flat out deny single wound models from holding objectives. If you don't think that's important with horrors being a thing you are overlooking one of the strongest lists in the game atm.

Sure they don't run with 2 cabbages but there is a reasonable 1 cabbage list and potential for a footslogging list.

Brutes are solid as hell right now.

[ShaneHobbes]

I will say I've been also having a lot of fun running foot bosses with block of brutes. I bring two of them and its nice not having to worry about activating them before they get bodied. This might be the first time I've actually enjoyed having foot megabosses on my list. Them also always having an 18" range to issue CAs with the Shouts is solid.

Edited September 28, 2021 by ShaneHobbes

[Vastianos]

On 9/26/2021 at 4:25 PM, PlasticCraic said:

Hey mate glad you enjoyed it!  Corey is a very analytical player as you would have got from the article, so it was a good opportunity to go down the well on the nuts and bolts of playing the army effectively - deployment, detailed turn 1 strategies and so on.

I'll be playing KB as something similar (combined arms / counterpunch) but my own current build is Double Croc.  Similar idea really, they flex between buffing your shooting then flipping to that big melee Waaagh turn. 

I'll be honest, IJ is the part of the book I've looked at least so far!  Bonesplitterz are "my dudes" and KB were the new shiny, so that's where I've focused my own energy up till now.  I'll figure something out by Friday but atm I'm thinking maybe I'll do 1 list from each Clan.  So not as in-depth as Corey's Kruleboyz piece (sorry!) but I'll def be covering Ironjawz this week!

Think you will also do one for Big Waagh? I read all of your articles and play all the green boyz so very interested on your thoughts on what the Big Waagh might look like competitively.

[Scurvydog]

11 hours ago, Skumbaagh said:

That list wouldnt be legal unless in blood toofs since gore gruntas are not battleline elsewhere. I struggle to write lists now with gruntas and a lot of brutes.

I just didnt mention the 2x5 ardboys thats all, I posted the list a bit earlier, but it is 2 MKs, 2 Chanters, 10 brutes, 2x5 ardboyz and 2x3 gruntas, so it is legal  

 

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

Brutes are solid as hell right now.

I would agree there is a play for lots of brutes, perhaps even a lot of MSU units in da choppas with perhaps 2-3 warchanters. Brutes are not that hard to kill, but wave after wave is a problem for anyone, and even 5 with violent fury do some really nasty work, although 10 can still take a few hits and dish back the pain and/or more likely to trigger a smashing and bashing. Might even go with footboss and a MK. The MK will be a prime target, so might even consider the footboss the general and go for mega bossy, then from these 2 alone it would be possible to double move up to 5 units to give the slower brutes some momentum up the board.