AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Ravinsild]

51 minutes ago, Malakree said:

This is basically the list you just said right?

 

Yes, exactly. I remember back before the new Battletome that was one of our best lists... is that still true now? Aren’t Gore-Gruntas even better... well... everything even better than it was?

[Kasper]

On 3/23/2020 at 11:24 PM, Ravinsild said:

Yes, exactly. I remember back before the new Battletome that was one of our best lists... is that still true now? Aren’t Gore-Gruntas even better... well... everything even better than it was?

I mean sure, it is a viable list you can run. You are very limited as to what you can actually do with the list - You will likely just launch stuff forward in every game and get in your opponents face turn 1. What happens when your opponent wont just fall over and die to that? You have no real way of changing your gameplan.

The question is also how much fun the list will be to play - and play against. The games will be short and likely determined by the double turn. 

[Arzalyn]

Has anyone had any sucess with Brutes? I got some lying around and wanted to make some lists to use them.
Is the Brutefirst or the white dwarf battalions any good for this purpouse? Or is the Ironfirst still the way to go?

[Lanoss]

@Arzalyn I’ve have great success with Brutes and in fact prefer them over Ardboys (an unpopular POV I know but I love them models and intend to make them work). The sheer damage output of a unit (at any size) outweighs Ardboys imo.  people can throw averages out but the performance on the board really shows their strengths. 
Ive been throwing around multiple units of 10+ in a Big Waaagh and I love them!

im yet to try in a Boss Fist but I reckon they’ll be insane

 

just my 2c anyway

[NauticalSoup]

1 hour ago, Lanoss said:

The sheer damage output of a unit (at any size) outweighs Ardboys imo.  people can throw averages out but the performance on the board really shows their strengths. 

Pages and pages of this thread have been devoted to this discussion already - if you want to use Brutes that's cool, but point for point they can't outperform Ardboys in pretty much any category. They don't have any useful warscroll abilities (unlike Ardboys) so their performance on board, as you put it, pretty much just amounts to the math.

I think the one corner-case was a ten man unit with hackas which can bring slightly more power to bear on a slightly more concentrated patch of real estate - which incidentally is EXACTLY what GGs do. It probably goes without saying they're better at it.

[Arzalyn]

9 hours ago, Lanoss said:

Ive been throwing around multiple units of 10+ in a Big Waaagh and I love them!

That sounds interesting! Could you share your list?

[Lanoss]

Here’s my Big Waaagh (wring thread I know)

Megaboss (Brutish Cunning, Metalrippers Klaw) - Weirdnob (GBHoG, Skullcape) - 2x Warchanter (Get Em & Fix Em)

Ironfist Battalion - 15x Brutes (Big Boss) - 10x Brutes - 10x Ardboys - 6x Gruntas - 3x Gruntas

Im really enjoying this kind of play style and it really shakes up what my opponent expects IJs to do 

 

The Ironsunz BossFist list I’m itching to try

Dakkbad (Right Hand, Metalrippers Klaw or EAmulet) - 2x Megaboss (1 has Sunblessed armour) - 2x Warchanter

10x Brutes - 10x Brutes - 5xBrutes - 5x Ardboys

[Heaven_lord]

Hey,

Would you have some great 1000 points lists for doubles ?

Thanks a lot !!

[ccconner777]

Putting together an Ironsunz list with the models i have. Kinda leaning towards an alpha strike strategy that relies on lots of movement shennanagins and teleports to make up for a lack of bodies.

Mawkrusha +2 move mount trait and 1 less rend on hits taken ironsunz artifact

Shaman general with teleport spell and +1 cast artifact and +1 to cast near rogue idol and +d3 command points command trait

Warchanter with fixin beat

Ironfist battalion

     10 ardboys

     15 brutes (battalion boss)

     3 gore gruntas

Rogue idol

The idea is my mawkrusha can use MD CA to move 28" and the shaman with +2 to cast can reliably get the teleport off on the brutes. Then i still have 2-4 command points so i can reroll both charges if needed. Before teleporting the brutes they can use their free MD from ironfist battalion on the ardboys or  gore gruntas to get them to an objective fast, or they can use it on themselves after the teleport to do a charge in hero phase, retreat and run in movement phase and get to do a 3" pile in because they charged  to slingshot to where i need them or get into a better target. Of course everything is -1 to be hit in that first battleround because ironsunz, and i can charge at the end of the opponent's charge phase to reposition if needed

Then battleround 2 i still probably have command points available for MD on the mawkrusha to fight or reposition and the free MD on the brutes to do the same, moving in the ballpark of 15-22" with the MD slingshot shenannigans and a CP spent for a 6" run roll if needed. And then i can keep up the pressure by teleporting the rogue idol into charge range of something, and might still have a cp available to reroll the charge.

Obviously i have very few bodies to put on objectives but im thinking maybe the movement tricks available in the list will allow any of my big threats that actually survive the early game brawl to pull back towards objectives later on. Not sure how likely it is that they survive or can actually pull that off but thats the idea. 

Debating whether making the megaboss my general and going down to 1 extra cp on the command trait that id have to take for an ironsunz megaboss general instead of d3 with the shaman trait is worth having an 18" range on inspiring presence to protect those brutes from battleshock. Alternatively i could send in the rogue idol turn 1 instead. But then i lose his +1 to cast on the teleport in battle round 2.  Not totally sure if the +2 move mount trait is necessary on the mawkrusha. Maybe 4+ spell ignore would be better to keep him alive, but the extra move feels important considering id be relying on him getting to where i need him.

[NauticalSoup]

@ccconner777 Is 2" of move on a fast flying unit REALLY worth giving up a sizable chunk of extra damage? If you're planning to MD move it up first turn anyway I dunno if you'll find the extra bit of range all that necessary.

Also I'll say it because someone's going to - 6 gore-gruntas is the magic number coupled with a warchanter buff. And even with hackas 15 brutes will struggle to pile in and fight if they don't take any casualties. Conveniently, an(other) Ironjawz SC box consists exclusively of models that would be good additions to that army.

And it's worth keeping in mind you can't call an Ironjawz Waaagh! if a Megaboss isn't your general. This may not matter if you're suiciding it up the board turn one just worth remembering.

Personally I'll always prefer the double big guy combo in Big Waaagh! cuz Bonezplitterz just have so many ways to buff the idol. Giving it speed and flight buff feels almost necessary to make the two of them work in tandem.

One last thought - the teleport is probably more useful for its threat than anything because it'll fail too often to plan around. +2 to cast isn't bad but we're not approaching Big Waaagh! and Bonesplitterz levels of cast bonuses. It'll suck if you whiff it and your opponent snipes the Weirdnob leaving your huge block of Brutes to wander up the field on foot, which even with a free MD every turn will take... a while.

[ccconner777]

13 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

@ccconner777 Is 2" of move on a fast flying unit REALLY worth giving up a sizable chunk of extra damage? If you're planning to MD move it up first turn anyway I dunno if you'll find the extra bit of range all that necessary.

Also I'll say it because someone's going to - 6 gore-gruntas is the magic number coupled with a warchanter buff. And even with hackas 15 brutes will struggle to pile in and fight if they don't take any casualties. Conveniently, an(other) Ironjawz SC box consists exclusively of models that would be good additions to that army.

And it's worth keeping in mind you can't call an Ironjawz Waaagh! if a Megaboss isn't your general. This may not matter if you're suiciding it up the board turn one just worth remembering.

Personally I'll always prefer the double big guy combo in Big Waaagh! cuz Bonezplitterz just have so many ways to buff the idol. Giving it speed and flight buff feels almost necessary to make the two of them work in tandem.

One last thought - the teleport is probably more useful for its threat than anything because it'll fail too often to plan around. +2 to cast isn't bad but we're not approaching Big Waaagh! and Bonesplitterz levels of cast bonuses. It'll suck if you whiff it and your opponent snipes the Weirdnob leaving your huge block of Brutes to wander up the field on foot, which even with a free MD every turn will take... a while.

Good thoughts, thanks. yeah i do know id be better off with less reliance on brutes, but painting up another start collecting is just more of a project than im ready to take on as this is my best painted army, and any new additions need to match the quality.

If i rewrote the list in big waaagh i would drop the battalion, 5 brutes, the 10 ardboys and the shaman and replace the mawkrusha with gordrak, and add 20 savage orruks, another warchanter and a wurgog prophet with the fly and move speed spell. All of these additions i have already or could easily convert.

With the CA id be getting 14 waaagh points turn 1 and be up to 25 without using the CA battleround 2 or using the CA if one of my little heroes gets sniped. Then i can breath of gorkamorka the rogue idol into their army and if in range charge anything else and pop big waaagh for extra attacks if i get enough in. Or i could put the rogue idol in turn 1 cause he'll still have the +1 to hit and the 6+ aftersave and one of his sets of attacks wounds on 2+ anyway, then turn 2 id be free to breath the savage orruks to get them wherever they are most useful, then charge in gordrak and the gore gruntas and pop big waaagh in the 2nd battleround. Problem is the brutes might be too slow to get into combat with 2 turns of movement i suppose, still seems like that would be a lot of damage output even without them. Maybe thats fine.

Edited April 16, 2020 by ccconner777

[Fastner]

Hey all,

New to AoS and looking to get into Warclans. Found a lot of answers to my various questions about the faction here but one thing that I'm still not certain of is the optimal weapon breakdown for Brutes. Can't figure out if it's worth taking a Gore-choppa upgrade or just sticking with the pair of choppas, and what to take on the Boss Brute.

[NauticalSoup]

2 minutes ago, Fastner said:

Hey all,

New to AoS and looking to get into Warclans. Found a lot of answers to my various questions about the faction here but one thing that I'm still not certain of is the optimal weapon breakdown for Brutes. Can't figure out if it's worth taking a Gore-choppa upgrade or just sticking with the pair of choppas, and what to take on the Boss Brute.

1. Most people seem to take the gore-choppa. It's more efficient before you get the warchanter buff, but then you won't always have the buff. Might as well take it. Also it has 2" range. I'd take the gore-choppa.
2. Give the boss the claw.
3. The optimal weapon for brutes is actually the hacka when you take more than 5 of them and most of the lists for those few people who have attempted to use brutes at the comp level seem to emphasize the unit of 10, which would play to its only strength over the Ardboy, the ability to concentrate attacks on a small patch of real estate. As an SCE player, I can tell you that 40mm bases are a ****** without 2" weapons.

[Televiper11]

Which issue of WD has the extra IJ stuff?

[NauticalSoup]

@Televiper11

February 2020, I think? 

Honestly not sure it's worth it for those alone though.

[Televiper11]

Thanks. Thinking of Orruks as my next army and just want to read about, be aware of all options.

[NauticalSoup]

@Televiper11

I would search for the 'bossfist' in this thread, I recall the two new battalions were discussed at some length.

In short they're both pretty gimmicky and require you buy into a lot of minis that most people will otherwise probably not recommend. Multiple Megabosses and lots of Brutes. 

[Vasshpit]

So I was scrolling through warscrolls yesterday and had a peek at SE Evocators.

Now seeing that they can be equipped in any combination of their weapon options (one being 1" and the other 2") I pondered the potential of this being the case for Brutes as they have similar load out options just as two weapon loadouts. 

Would this maybe be a slight fix, boost to their current warscroll and the fact that most consider Ardboyz the better choice or not?

Edited May 14, 2020 by Vasshpit

[NauticalSoup]

@Vasshpit

I doubt it would change much. They'd be slightly more efficient in their 10-man configuration. They'd still have garbage bravery, be super fragile, annoying slow and have no warscroll abilities of note.

It's also worth noting that Evocators should always be built with exclusively grandstaffs and zero of the other weapon. They're better against virtually everything, even stuff with good saves.

Edited May 14, 2020 by NauticalSoup

[Kasper]

7 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

So I was scrolling through warscrolls yesterday and had a peek at SE Evocators.

Now seeing that they can be equipped in any combination of their weapon options (one being 1" and the other 2") I pondered the potential of this being the case for Brutes as they have similar load out options just as two weapon loadouts. 

Would this maybe be a slight fix, boost to their current warscroll and the fact that most consider Ardboyz the better choice or not?

Brutes are better at dealing damage than Ardboyz, so getting the ability to have 2" reach on some of them would only increase this advantage. They still fail at numbers, bravery, charge bonus etc.  compared to Ardboyz, which is generally why people opt for Ardboyz. If all you wanted was damage output, you would already pick Brutes tbh.

[Warmill]

I really feel like gw missed a trick not making brutes 2 distinct warscrolls like kurnoth hunters, if they had distinct roles like anti horde and anti armour they'd have more use.

[NauticalSoup]

On 5/15/2020 at 1:52 AM, Kasper said:

Brutes are better at dealing damage than Ardboyz, so getting the ability to have 2" reach on some of them would only increase this advantage. They still fail at numbers, bravery, charge bonus etc.  compared to Ardboyz, which is generally why people opt for Ardboyz. If all you wanted was damage output, you would already pick Brutes tbh.

This really aren't though. Better at dealing damage, that is. You can concoct select scenarios where it's possible for them to deal more, but you can do the same for Ardboys thanks to their 32s, and even being generous to the brutes the difference is pretty negligible and certainly doesn't make up for the mountain of disadvantages. 

15 Ardboys (270 pts) with all buffs do 44.44 damage before saves.

10 Brutes with hackas (280 pts) with all buffs do 44.17 damage before saves.

In theory the hacka Brutes can concentrate more damage thanks to their 2" weapons, but this advantage is heavily mitigated by their huge bases and poor maneuverability. It's an advantage but it's an oh-so-very marginal one. 

The only way you can get the Brutes doing tangibly more damage (and not by much) is to take five man squads with choppas, which ends up being a lot more expensive for your investment because you are wasting an entire Warchanter on a single 130 point unit when you could be buffing a unit double that size and doing a ton more damage in totality.  There's no point in discussing ten man squads with choppas, cuz I've played enough SCE to know that ain't happening with 40mm bases.

For the sake of completeness, unbuffed 5 choppa guys and 7 Ardboys:

Ardboys: 7.11

Brutes: 10.22

There's your nominal damage boost on brutes, in their incredibly inefficient 5-man choppa configuration, fighting without buffs, assuming you can squeeze their huge bases in so they all get a piece. That's about as good as it gets for Brutes. Sorry for the rant, there's just been so much discussion about the viability of Brutes in this thread and yet we have to keep retreading this discussion without learning anything.

Edited May 18, 2020 by NauticalSoup

[Lanoss]

You are also far more likely to get all 10 hacka brutes in range for combat than 15 Ardboys 

So performance in-game doesn’t necessarily equal performance on-paper in this instance 

[NauticalSoup]

2 hours ago, Lanoss said:

You are also far more likely to get all 10 hacka brutes in range for combat than 15 Ardboys 

So performance in-game doesn’t necessarily equal performance on-paper in this instance 

Indeed, I literally note this in my post. It's their one and only advantage over Ardboys. I'd consider it more of one if a good chunk of that advantage weren't blown by the 40mm base, which is more than a third larger by volume and will mean in some situations they'll actually have a harder time getting in position to fight.

I agree with the second point but in the opposite direction. I'm being generous to the brutes by letting them arrive unmolested and be able to fight neck and neck with Ardboys by computing only raw damage, the single dimension where Brutes can squeak out a marginal advantage... maybe. Sometimes. If you get lucky. Even if we ignore the durability/bravery issues that make it challenging to have an intact group of 10 land a charge, Ardboys have a substantial 2" charge range advantage so there will be situations where you will do zero damage with Brutes but you would have been fine with Ardboys. Whiffing a charge with a hammer unit will easily cost you a game, doing one or two points of extra damage occasionally probably won't win you many.

But you know what I didn't even mention in my rant is - you could just take Gore-gruntas if you want damage! They're just flat out better than brutes as damage dealers and are also much faster, which is why they're almost totally ubiquitous in both BW and Ironjawz but Brutes rarely hit the table. 

A few months back I was defending brutes too, I got into a debate about them @Malakree and he made a very compelling case as to why they're a bad unit. I played quite a few games with them since then and now I hate the things more than pretty much any other unit in the book. Except maybe the Weirdnob. Jury's out as to which is less pleasant to use.

[Narissra]

I want to love my brutes. I really truly want to. Sadly though, they don't feel like they have much of a role/use in any of my lists. Five brutes don't do pretty much anything in my many games and for the cost of ten brutes, I would much prefer to have the fifteen 'ardboys since they are much less likely to flee, get a better charge bonus, hold a zone better, and just seem more reliable and useful. Sadly the other issue I have with brutes is that for just 20points more I can have gore-gruntas, who are way faster and deadlier.

I'm not sure how to make brutes more useful with our current book due to the fact that we only have three units to pick from and they are all similar in points so they have to compete against each other and gore-gruntas are just too great at the cost and ardboys are such a solid block of troops.