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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

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7 minutes ago, broche said:

Actually the most resilent units per point is 30 savage orruk with +2 save at a whooping 0.72 pts per effective wound. 

Anyway I get that berserker are probably the worst because of the strike first and the fact that the hit relative hard, you won't grind thru 30 phoenix guard  that fast either. They have access to -1 to wound as well, and stuff like 6++, minus to hit, and they also can hit quite hard. They can bring back d6 model per turn with Lifeswarm. 

Goblin could combine geminid with net, and they are pretty cheap. + they can stall with fanatics.

It's not just about killing the bloob is also about how much they score before. You need to kill it and then be able to score both turn 4 and 5

The thing is, if I put a unit of 10 ardboys buffed with +1 damage they will grind through all of those. If I put a unit of 6GG's buffed up with +1 damage they will grind through all of those. I put both of those into a unit of hearthguard at the same time I might kill 5/6 if I'm lucky.

It's not about points per wound or anything else. It's about the fact that you straight up cannot fight the unit of hearthguard, if you try it will destroy you.  All the rest are a problem, but they are a problem with answers.

  • You pop out fanatics in front of an MK/GG's I will happily MW them off the board for you. 
  • 30 savage orruks with 3+ save, a unit of buffed GG's should kill between 11-18 on the charge, enjoy that battleshock.
  • 30 Phoenoix guard, that unit of GG's should kill ~18 on their own.

Having done that your opponent is now scrambling to catch back up from the enormous amount of damage they just took.

That same unit against a buffed unit of hearthguard? You do 5 wounds if you're lucky and they will wipe you in return. That's assuming you even get to attack.

There is absolutely nothing in the game which can be compared to hearthguard, if you think there is then whoever was using them when you played against them make a whole bunch of massive mistakes.

You beat 30 hearthguard by either killing ALL the characters, something we don't have the reach to do, or you don't fight them. If the battleplan lets them turtle on objectives you've lost.

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12 minutes ago, Malakree said:

You pop out fanatics in front of an MK/GG's I will happily MW them off the board for you. 

Fair enough

12 minutes ago, Malakree said:

30 savage orruks with 3+ save, a unit of buffed GG's should kill between 11-18 on the charge, enjoy that battleshock.

I think you're a bit optimistic. the best damage 6 gruntas can get is around 80 (assuming warchanter, spear on the charge, hit bonus, and a +2 attack waaagh). That would kill an average of 15 orruk. They'll spend a CP for inspiring presence, and counter attack you. I would not be that confident to win that war. Of course, they might just have a 4+ as spell/prayer are not granted, at 4+/6++ you have reasonable odd of  killing them in your next attack (depending if you win priority). However BS will often support big blob with nearby big stabbas, wich is really annoying for melee army. 

 

39 minutes ago, Malakree said:

30 Phoenoix guard, that unit of GG's should kill ~18 on their own

Again, that a really optimistic scenario. Add in debuff from Frostheart and pha's protection and you're down to 12 kills. You loose 2 pig in reitaliation, and are already behind in the grinding war.

And wait to see Bonereaper, it's gonna get worse (stupide GW with their army wide +1 save).

And this is purely open field, if you need to navigate terrain with Gruntas it can quickly get worse.

Of course, Berserker are still the worst because they strike first (and hard), wich is really bad, but anything that divide damage roughly by four is not great for Ironjawz. I would tend to avoid those unit until I could kill some character. Of course if they hold the only objective on the board, there's not much to do... 

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4 hours ago, Malakree said:

Buffed up 30 Hearthguard is basically the only thing in the game I would say we have no hope of killing,

How do you reckon we'd go against Mortek?

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36 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

How do you reckon we'd go against Mortek?

I think if they become prevalent, the Metalrippa claw might become mandatory. A maw krusha would then be able to kill most of a 40 - strong mob. Otherwise, you divide damage by more than 4... not good

Also note that the reroll all save , not just failed one...

meh just redid the math and MK would like 15 on a charge... they have the stupid feel no pain 6+ as well. realy bad.

Edited by broche

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The only thing in our favour is that the rerolls are Combat Phase only.  So a Mighty Destroyers pile in would mean they get no rerolls - that could help us fight our way out of a grind.

If you've got a way to run the numbers: how would a Maw Krusha with no offensive bonuses (assume tanky loadout) go across 2 turns (3 pile ins)?  Charge - fight - Mighty D - fight?

17 minutes ago, broche said:

meh just redid the math and MK would like 15 on a charge... they have the stupid feel no pain 6+ as well. realy bad.

Is that with or withouth Metalrippa's klaw?  If it's with, I don't think it does enough in the key matchup to be worth taking?

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@broche

Universal Basis
6 Goregruntas: Buffed with +1 hit, RR1's to hit, +1 damage, +1 attack, Charging (4 cps required to guarantee, I get that turn 1 with most of my lists).

Vs 3+ save Savage Orruks.
 

Spoiler

graph.php?q=r:234:31:2:m100;r:233:30:2:m

26-40 damage through the armour. 

Accounting for the 6++ save: 21.66 damage - 33.33 damage.
Average MW on charge ~3.

Min Estimated Damage = 24.66.
Round down Min Estimated Damage to account for 6++ vs mortals = 24
Min Estimated Casulties = 12

Max Estimated Damage = 36.33.
Round down Max Estimated Damage to account for 6++ vs mortals = 36
Max Estimated Casulties = 18

Average Estimated Casulties = 12-18 models

Vs Phoenix Guard with -1 Wound Aura active

Spoiler

graph.php?q=r:245:31:2:m100;r:244:30:2:m

28-42 damage through the armour. 

Accounting for the 4++ save: 16 damage - 21 damage.
Average MW on charge ~3.
Account for 4++ on Charge MW and round down = 17-22

Average Estimated Casulties = 17-22 models

Vs Buffed Hearthguard 2+(RR1) to save - Note they can get RR all saves for 1 set of turns.

Spoiler

graph.php?q=r:233:31:2:m101;r:232:30:2:m

6-14 damage through the armour.

Accounting for 4++ save: 3-7 damage
Average MW on charge ~3
Account for 4++ on charge MW and round down = 4-8

Average estimated casulties = 2-4 models.

They are not even in the same league let-alone the same ballpark.

@PlasticCraic

Vs 3+(RRA) save with Mortek Guard Assuming +1 - from both Mystic Shield or the stupid temple thing they have

Spoiler

graph.php?q=r:234:31:2:m103;r:233:30:2:m

10-20 damage through the armour.
Accounting for 6++ save: 8.33-16.66 damage
Average MW on charge ~3

Min Estimated Damage = 11.33
Round down Min Estimated Casualties to account for 6++ vs mortals = 11

Max Estimated Damage = 19.66
Round down Max Estimated Casualties to account for 6++ vs mortals = 19

Estimated Casualties = 11-19

Vs 2+(RRA) save with Mortek Guard Assuming +2 - from both Mystic Shield or the stupid temple thing they have

Spoiler

graph.php?q=r:233:31:2:m103;r:232:30:2:m

2-8 damage through the armour.
Accounting for 6++ save: 1.66-6.66 damage
Average MW on charge ~3

Min Estimated Damage = 4.66
Round down Min Estimated Casulties to account for 6++ vs mortals = 4

Max Estimated Damage = 9.66
Round down Max Estimated Casulties to account for 6++ vs mortals = 9

Estimated Casualties = 4-9

So altogether not great. It's the 2+ RR save that really dicks us, if they start becoming a major force in the meta we'll probably end up adding more MW into the army, ie. Wrath of Gork and/or Da Blazin' Eyes. That said our best bet would probably be to add a Wurrgog prophet in for it's horde killing and 4+ CP gain.

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1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

Is that with or withouth Metalrippa's klaw?  If it's with, I don't think it does enough in the key matchup to be worth taking?

Yeah with klaw. Good point about MD, attacking in herophase indeed mitigate the reroll. 

Wurgog with huge casting bonus with fist of gork will kill almost half the squad too :D 

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1 hour ago, Malakree said:

They are not even in the same league let-alone the same ballpark.

How can Heartguard get to 2+? I tough 3+ was their max best. Last time I played against Fyreslayer they were mostly at 4+/4+ with buff from battlesmith.

You're kind of comparing orange and apple. You,re giving +3 save to Berserker and a mere -1 to wound to the Phoenix guard. Guard could easily give you an extra -1 (even 2) to hit, a +1 save, rr1 save as well and a 6++ from Luminark. 

Also Mortek guard can only reach 3+ at best as far as i'm aware. 

 

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19 minutes ago, broche said:

Also Mortek guard can only reach 3+ at best as far as i'm aware. 

I've just realised that I used mystic shield as a +1 to save which it isn't anymore...so yes you're correct. I'll leave the post as is because clearly they will always have cover saves amarite! More srsly having done it i might aswell leave it and i prefer not to remove my mistakes posthoc.

21 minutes ago, broche said:

How can Heartguard get to 2+? I tough 3+ was their max best. Last time I played against Fyreslayer they were mostly at 4+/4+ with buff from battlesmith.

Battlesmith, prayer, runesmith on magmadroth.

22 minutes ago, broche said:

You're kind of comparing orange and apple. You,re giving +3 save to Berserker and a mere -1 to wound to the Phoenix guard. Guard could easily give you an extra -1 (even 2) to hit, a +1 save, rr1 save as well and a 6++ from Luminark. 

I'm focusing on commonly avalible selfbuffing which you can generally assume to be active.

Yes they could theoretically hit you with a mass of -hit through geminids but those are not going to be active on the turn you go. On the otherhand a fyreslayers player can and will be able to force the fight under their buffs.

So the difference is that Phoenix guard "can" rebuff you to hell but hearthguard "will" he running all the ton of buffs.

Ofc all of this ignores the fact those hearthguard will pile in and brutalize you before you get to activate and they will reliably obliterate anything you put into them.

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8 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Yes they could theoretically hit you with a mass of -hit through geminids but those are not going to be active on the turn you go. On the otherhand a fyreslayers player can and will be able to force the fight under their buffs.

Pha's protection, cinder cloud, geminid are all very likely. +1 save from tempest eye in round 1. Sigmar have so much unit i did not even check all the possibility. At the end of the day, if you commit 6 pig and 4 command point and don't even kill 200 points on the charge, things are looking bad.

Also if a single squad of berskerker have 2+, that mean his hero are close enough. At this point you're better avoiding them and kill stuff that buff so they become killable next turn.

18 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Ofc all of this ignores the fact those hearthguard will pile in and brutalize you before you get to activate and they will reliably obliterate anything you put into them.

For me this is the most problematic thing. And one more reason to avoid them like pest until some of their hero are dead.

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I'll say the same thing I've always said when facing HB. Don't. Avoid them at all costs no matter what your faction/list is. The only way to deal with them is snipe the heroes which IJ cant effectively do

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33 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

I'll say the same thing I've always said when facing HB. Don't. Avoid them at all costs no matter what your faction/list is. The only way to deal with them is snipe the heroes which IJ cant effectively do

Agreed.  But then you play them on Starstrike, where they can control the whole middle of the board and assume it will land there, which it probably will.

So you get snake eyes and box cars, and they get everything else in between.

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8 hours ago, broche said:

Also if a single squad of berskerker have 2+, that mean his hero are close enough. At this point you're better avoiding them and kill stuff that buff so they become killable next turn.

Sorry I thought that was assumed given that the discussion centred around 30 hearthguard sat in the middle of the board on 2 starstrike objectives (for me it was all 3 🤮).

Ultimately the issue becomes that those other things you listed are tarpits. They are annoying and take ages to kill but I can and will just pin them in place while I score objectives and over 2/3 turns we can grind them down.

A unit of 30 hearthguard is NOT a tarpit. It's a steamroller and if you try to pin it down it will kill whatever you put into it, even if that's your entire army...

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12 hours ago, broche said:

Also Mortek guard can only reach 3+ at best as far as i'm aware. 

 

Afaik they reroll all failed saves though + bringing models back. Quite the tanky bois.

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2 hours ago, Kasper said:

Afaik they reroll all failed saves though + bringing models back. Quite the tanky bois.

Yes reroll in combat. Kakatros can bring 3 model back per turn, but i didn't see anything else. They also get a nice discount for max size (40). An overall really good unit. Rend 1 in combat is not gonna be enough, you'll need rend 2+ or mortal. I think an heavy magic Big waagh will fare better than pure IJ.

5 hours ago, Malakree said:

Sorry I thought that was assumed given that the discussion centred around 30 hearthguard sat in the middle of the board on 2 starstrike objectives

Well, anything holding 2 objectives that won't die with 80 damage is pretty bad. At the end of the day, you might kill 15 of the screen of phoenix guard, but you won't take back the objective then a squad of  Irondrake will fume you with 50+ rend 2 damage. For me end result it's the same. 

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What are people's ultimate thoughts on how to deal with these tanky mobs? I've seen Wurrgog Prophets being suggested, but they'll only consistently hit a 10+ cast of Fist of Gork in a Big Waaagh list. With the +1 to cast artefact and BW's +2 to cast for d6 Wpoints, you can hit the 10+ 58% of the time. For context, without BW's +2 to cast, it's only a 28% chance to get a 10+ cast with the +1 artefact and 17% without any bonuses to cast. These odds don't factor in the chance of your opponents unbinding the spells, but I'd imagine it's unlikely that your opponent will beat you very often if you're using a +3 to cast.

Aside from terrain, are there any other cast bonuses that we could try to capitalize on? 58% isn't a low chance, but it's not completely reliable, especially since it requires such a heavy investment in the form of an artefact, taking a Big Waagh list over IJ/Ironsunz, and d6 Wpoints. Even a single extra bonus (bringing it to +4 to cast, total) would bring the chance from 58% to 72%, which I'm pretty comfortable with.

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Random aside, but a friend wanting to start IJ/BW asked me whether they should buy two or three Start Collecting, boxes.  Thoughts?  My instinct was to tell them that 2x is an obvious slam-dunk of terrific units that they'll use all of, but is a third already starting to become inefficient for the hobby-dollar?  I almost feel like telling him 2x Starter + 2x 'Ard Boys is a better investment, early on.

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2 hours ago, broche said:

Kakatros can bring 3 model back per turn, but i didn't see anything else

Arkhan, Nagash, most importantly, the Mortisan Boneshaper (a 130 point hero) also bring 3 models back per turn. The Gothizzar Harvester brings a model back to a unit within 6" whenever a model within 3" is slain. Multiple Harvesters can rez off of the same model so if you overlap the 3" bubbles of 2 Harvesters on a unit of Mortek Guard they become effectively immune to damage :P.

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You can get another +1 from making Wurgog general. Could get 1 more from Idol. at +4 is pretty consistant. I mean, they're gonna take 17 mortal wound if you succed, and they don't have much shooting. Add more source of mortal wound, and you can realisticly clear more than half the regiment per turn, wich is better than most army. 

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22 minutes ago, Forrix said:

Arkhan, Nagash, most importantly, the Mortisan Boneshaper (a 130 point hero) also bring 3 models back per turn. The Gothizzar Harvester brings a model back to a unit within 6" whenever a model within 3" is slain. Multiple Harvesters can rez off of the same model so if you overlap the 3" bubbles of 2 Harvesters on a unit of Mortek Guard they become effectively immune to damage :P.

Thanks to point that! So I doubt we will see list with more than either Arkhan, Nagash or Kakatros. So you can expect 6 raised model per turn. 

not cool!

So just did some quick math, to have decent odd of killing a squad of 40, you need a combinasion of 20 mortal (fist of gork + other spell), a volley of 30 arrowboys + a charge of well buffed Big stabbas / Pig / Ardboys. A Maw Krusha with Live to fight + metal rippa claw will kill about 20 as well.

Edited by broche

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This could be a decent list against Bonereaper. Not sure how good it is against rest of the field (read: anything with decent shooting)

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Live to Fight
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Brutal Beast Spirits
Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
30 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (360)
Ironfist (160)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 153
 

 

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51 minutes ago, Neomaxim said:

Random aside, but a friend wanting to start IJ/BW asked me whether they should buy two or three Start Collecting, boxes.  Thoughts?  My instinct was to tell them that 2x is an obvious slam-dunk of terrific units that they'll use all of, but is a third already starting to become inefficient for the hobby-dollar?  I almost feel like telling him 2x Starter + 2x 'Ard Boys is a better investment, early on.

2 is guaranteed value. Nearly every list will incorporate at least 2 WCs, 20 ardboyz, and 6 GGs. If you buy a third, it comes down to what you want to play. Most lists can use 30 ardboyz, so that's a given. I think that 3 WCs is normal in a footboss list, but probably not common for a mawkrusha list. 9 GGs is probably more than most lists, but it could fun to experiment with down the road.

I normally suggest 2 SCs to start, then get more if they want to experiment with different lists - if a person ever wants 2 of the units in the box, it's worth it to just buy the box IMO. To start off, I'd agree that 2x SC, 2x Ardboyz, and a footboss probably makes more sense. That's a lot of ardboyz to paint, though.

47 minutes ago, broche said:

You can get another +1 from making Wurgog general. Could get 1 more from Idol. at +4 is pretty consistant. I mean, they're gonna take 17 mortal wound if you succed, and they don't have much shooting. Add more source of mortal wound, and you can realisticly clear more than half the regiment per turn, wich is better than most army. 

I haven't experimented with BW, but I originally assumed that Brutish Cunning was almost an auto-take for a command trait because it + Ironfist are your only source of MDs. Rogue Idol could be a good idea, especially if you bring a Wardokk, which also can give your Wurrgog +1 go cast on a 3+ roll. Unfortunately, I don't have an idol, so i won't be able to test it 😭 

Still, if you did theoretically bring a rogue idol, that's between +4-+5 to cast on a turn. That's a very, very reliable 10+ cast. And, with MDs, WCs, and a wardokk, the rogue idol could still be a wrecking-ball on its own, serving a double-purpose. If you need to kill big mobs, keep it back for the casting buff. If you don't need the casting buff, launch it into the enemy with +1 damage, +1 to its save, doubling its movement, and having an Ironfist boss of GGs nearby to MD it next turn. E.g. 

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- General
- Trait: Brutish Cunning
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Brutal Beast Spirits
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
Rogue Idol (400)
Ironfist (160)

Total: 1670 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 97
 

Fill with the last 330pts of your choice - likely more units. The 2x 5 ardboyz are to hold backline objectives and fill out the IF. Realistically, one could also be buffed into a 10-man or 15-man unit.

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18 hours ago, TALegion said:

What are people's ultimate thoughts on how to deal with these tanky mobs? I've seen Wurrgog Prophets being suggested, but they'll only consistently hit a 10+ cast of Fist of Gork in a Big Waaagh list. With the +1 to cast artefact and BW's +2 to cast for d6 Wpoints, you can hit the 10+ 58% of the time. For context, without BW's +2 to cast, it's only a 28% chance to get a 10+ cast with the +1 artefact and 17% without any bonuses to cast. These odds don't factor in the chance of your opponents unbinding the spells, but I'd imagine it's unlikely that your opponent will beat you very often if you're using a +3 to cast.

Aside from terrain, are there any other cast bonuses that we could try to capitalize on? 58% isn't a low chance, but it's not completely reliable, especially since it requires such a heavy investment in the form of an artefact, taking a Big Waagh list over IJ/Ironsunz, and d6 Wpoints. Even a single extra bonus (bringing it to +4 to cast, total) would bring the chance from 58% to 72%, which I'm pretty comfortable with.

Rogue Idol gives another +1, Wardokk, CMD trait, Waagh magic. Is up to +5.

Edited by whispersofblood

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Guys i font play sincero like 1 year, why in tournament list i red in the last month people dont play Brutes? Are they nerfed with new book?

Edited by Tizianolol
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1 hour ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys i font play sincero like 1 year, why in tournament list i red in the last month people dont play Brutes? Are they nerfed with new book?

Not nerfed, but pretty flat. Ardboys does a similar job for a lower per model cost. However I expect to see some list including Brutes as the meta diversify (since their damage output is higher than Ardboys). They are better with da Choppa because of bravery buff, but most competitive list are Ironsunz at the moment.

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