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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

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Ok, I've completely misunderstood the Waaagh CA. I haven't red the part which says "up to". That changes a lot my opinion about the book (regarding rules, not the lack of new "things").

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5 hours ago, Kasper said:

I'm much more a fan of the current setup where you can have one power turn but still have great output the following rounds. Waaagh isn't the nuclear button it used to be where it was deciding if you won or lost. It is a button to press when you want a little more oompf in one round to delete something important.

Exactly, that's how I played it in my last game. The timing was right, the position was good too, I analyzed the benefits of triggering the Waaagh! during this turn and what it would allow me later. I did the power turn, wiped a lot of stuff and was still strong in the following turns, enough to secure the objectives I needed. 

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7 hours ago, Kasper said:

I'm much more a fan of the current setup where you can have one power turn but still have great output the following rounds. Waaagh isn't the nuclear button it used to be where it was deciding if you won or lost. It is a button to press when you want a little more oompf in one round to delete something important.

Couldn’t agree more here. I’ve typically had one pretty powerful turn or double turn (finding myself letting my opponent go first sometimes can be helpful to those counter charges) in the games I’ve played recently. But then it wasn’t like okay well that’s all I got!  Now it’s about repositioning that warchanter to buff these guys and who’s gonna get what. Where can I go to get more movement. It just feels  a lot more hands in and fun every round now. Even my opponents, where I’m like go for it shoot me I need that extra move to make it easier to get that next charge in. 

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Is the Wrath of Gork spell more staple than the Green Hand? It seems really powerful, with only 4 units you can easily cause 8 MW 😮

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5 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

Is the Wrath of Gork spell more staple than the Green Hand? It seems really powerful, with only 4 units you can easily cause 8 MW 😮

To me Hand of Gork is always the first pick because it can be a game winner if you need to teleport a unit and claim a far away objective late game and we're not exactly mobile once we are in combat. 

That being said, a lot of ppl here have mentioned that Wrath of Gork seems very potent and powerful if built around it. Still remains to be tried and experimented with. Hope it helps.

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Is this an error on Azyr and Warscroll Builder or are Warchanters unable to take artifacts?

Ugh nvm I'm an idiot and forgot that the main artifacts are Megaboss only now. I was looking to experiment with the Brain Bursta spell and stacking negative Bravery on the enemy.

Edited by ShaneHobbes

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14 minutes ago, Incredebilis said:

Is it not possible to add the Ironsunz Artifact and Command Trait on Azyr?

Yea having troubles with it too, looks like they rushed it out without a decent QA

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2 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

Is the Wrath of Gork spell more staple than the Green Hand? It seems really powerful, with only 4 units you can easily cause 8 MW 😮

It's +1 to cast, and while powerful I think most of the time the threath of Hand of gork is better. Just the fact the opponent need to be wary of a teleport mean that hand of gork have an impact all game long in at least 60% of scenario.

This is probably the first list i'm gonna try competitively: Alpha strike bloodtooth. 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Get Da Realmgate
- Artefact: Quickduff Amulet
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)

- Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Warchanter (110)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
20 x Orruk Ardboys (360)
Ironfist (160)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 142

The list is 4 drop and aim to take first turn. Normal play should be Quickduff on ardboys, MD on pig, MD on Krusha and attack, and use waaagh (leaving 1+ CP depending on luck with Brooch for either charge reroll / +1 to hit). However this is the kind of list that you really need to adapt your play according to your opponent deployment. Clever player usually do clever deployment, so throwing you 3 best units first turn if you can ensure you'll net a good value from your strike, otherwise it might be better to hold some piece in reserve. 

Among the questions you should ask yourself, and change your play accordingly

1. How good is opponent initial deployment? For a alpha strike, the smallest mistake can be enough to exploit. Look for a gap, as you could win the game right there.

2. What is the scenario (center objective, or zone objective). 

3. Does opponent have strike first mechanic (Fyreslayer lodge or Slaanesh LoD)

4. How tough is the screen?

5. How hard will be the counterattack?

6. Does he have shooting?

What I really like with the new bloodtooth is really the flexibility, and reliability. Old version of alphastrike were either Gorefist or Bloodtooth with cog. While gorefist was quite consistent alpha strike, Gruntas were much weaker than now. The quickduff amulet also give us access to a 100% reliable deepstrike, making screening much more a puzzle as you can attack from 2-3 different front.

Other tribes also have the option to alpha strike, but I think Bloodtooth is the best choice for first turn strike. The extra +1 charges and amulet ares obvious , but the trait also signicantly raise your odds of hitting the +2 attack for waaagh. Finally the command abilities might look week at first glance but I think it's actually quite usefull. It allow you to strike and then retreat your units close to supporting units (brutes), thus preventing loosing your first - turn for free against violent counter attack or go sit on a middle board objective. At the end of the day, movement mechanic are rarely bad.

 

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1 hour ago, broche said:

This is probably the first list i'm gonna try competitively: Alpha strike bloodtooth. 

I was thinking similar! Buff up a unit of ardboyz or brutes and auto teleport into a line then auto charge someone’s face off

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Get Da Realmgate  
- Artefact: Quickduff Amulet  
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet 
- Mount Trait: Weird'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1x Gore Choppas
20 x Orruk Brutes (560)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 4x Gore Choppas

Battalions
Brute Fist (120)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

Edited by svnvaldez
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56 minutes ago, broche said:

Bloodtooth is the best choice for first turn strike

I bet it’s the hidden sleeper ppl aren’t talking about enough

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@broche @svnvaldez

Honestly If I'm going for an alphastrike list it looks more like this.

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (540)
- General
- Mount Trait: Heavy 'Un
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- Artefact: Quickduff Amulet
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)

Battalions
Gorefist (130)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 125

So this list

  • Big G as the General has no downsides, you don't have to take the ****** trait which doesn't even work.
  • Quickduff on the Footboss to catapult him up the board, essentially bypassing all the normal problems with him.
  • Footboss is actually one of the hardest "Power Drop Units" to screen out due to how small his footprint is compared to his damage output.
  • Gorefist means your standard army is moving 18" base on turn 1.
  • 5 Drops isn't great but the list can comfortably screen.
  • If you screen and your opponent gives you first turn you can still easily alpha.
  • A ton of Impact hits should let you crack some sort of hole in your opponents line.
  • Fixin Beat for healing Damned terrain damage.

Couple of cool little strategies.

  1. Damned the Footboss, Fixin Beat him, Quickduff into a gap the opponent left, you now have a functional 3d6+2" charge with RR1's to hit.
  2. Quickduff the second Warchanter with Either Killa Beat or Get Em Beat. Lets you utilise the bonus despite the fact your entire army left them behind.
  3. Walls and Walls of impact hits.
  4. You don't have to alpha turn 1 if you don't want. Instead use the Gorefist to spread out across the board claiming objectives and zoning using the +1 to run.
  5. Damned the unit of 6, pop a Mighty Destroyers, teleport with Get Em Beat. Enjoy 27"+d6" movement followed by 3d6+2" charge. That's 29+4d6" charge range...that's an average of 43"!

Realistically I think this is what your high end alphastrike list will look like. Way more flexible, not reliant on gimicks but has them as an option and can play both the alphastrike or the objective game using the ridiculous movement.

Personally I regularly used the +1 run with the Bloodtoofs battalion despite the fact it seemed nobody else did. It's way more important than people give it credit for. A running unit of GG's is now base movement 11" rather than base movement 10", that adds up quickly in terms of moving around the board.

Edited by Malakree
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Honestly I’m still waiting on the 2 week FAQ before investing in any list. I want to know if they modify the bloodtoof trait and if they continue to let BigG have a mount trait.

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@Malakree To be honest i'm not sure about your list. I don't dislike the unit / bataillion choice (actually pretty standard), but with this kind of list i don't see any reason to run Bloodtooth. I would take Ironsunz or Regular IJ way before.  Quickduff on Megaboss is almost a wasted artefact. At the end of the day Megaboss is not as killy as 10+ brutes or 20+ ardboys. 

If I put 21 pig in the face of my opponent, i'd rather them have -1 to hit, getting better trait in the process. 

For me the bloodooth is really about the deepstrike (to not be mixed with Alphastrike)

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

Way more flexible, not reliant on gimicks but has them as an option and can play both the alphastrike or the objective game using the ridiculous movement.

There's nothing really gimicks on the opposite. Quickduff is automatic, MD is automatics.  Ardboys are +4 to charges. Everythings is pretty much granted. 

Ironfist also give you much more mid game power than gorefist, so both actually play quite different.

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2 hours ago, broche said:

There's nothing really gimicks on the opposite. Quickduff is automatic, MD is automatics.  Ardboys are +4 to charges. Everythings is pretty much granted. 

Ironfist also give you much more mid game power than gorefist, so both actually play quite different.

Fair enough. After trying to think why I wasn't keen on your list I came to the conclusion it's the massive block of ardboys. It feels so expensive to me in terms of wounds/impact which is a perhaps an unreasonable bias on my part.

I think it actually comes from a few games after gbh2019 dropped where I tried the 30 ardboys teleport pin/alpha and was really not impressed with it.

There's also the quickduff on the cabbage which I REALLY dislike.  From that perspective I'm not sure I could ever play bloodtoofs without a Footboss to carry it. Combine that with my borderline obsession over Big G and that's probably why I'm list building them the way I am.

So some interesting things to think on from my perspective. I might have to try running a variation of your list at club sometime to see how I feel about it in game.

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My take on the Alpha Strike list.

Quote

 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs

Leaders
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (540)
- Mount Trait: Fast Un'
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- General
- Trait: Get Da Realmgate
- Artefact: Quickduff Amulet
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Fixin' Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Artefact: Great Green Visions

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Jagged Gore-hacka
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Jagged Gore-hacka
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Jagged Gore-hacka

Battalions
Gorefist (130)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 116

 

1) Gordrakk buffs everyone with +1 to hit.
2) Ironjawz WAAAGH will buff models with +1 attack.
3) Warchanters will buff the 2 squads of 6 Gore-Gruntas with +1 damage.
4) Gore-Gruntas have +1 to hit and +1 to wound on the charge.

(2 CP used, which leaves a reliable third and maybe Great Green Visions)

Each Gore-Grunta deals 0.5 MW on the charge (3 on the units of 6)
Each Jagged Gore-hacka, against Save of 4+ deals 3.7 damage
Each Pig deals, against Save of 4+, 2.2 damage.

A unit of 6 pigs can therefore expect to deal 37-43 wounds to a unit with a save of 4+ (36.8+Mortal Wounds)

On average, you can expect to kill a big non-elite unit, or a medium sized elite unit, which triggers Smashin' and Bashin'.

To get there, Gorefist allows all the 3 squads to move 9" at the start of the first hero phase, followed by a movement of 9", followed by a charge of +2, for a reliable threat range of 25", allowing for coverage of most deployments instantly.

Gordrakk can move with Mighty Destroyers, giving him an effective movement of 24", on top of charge, giving a reliable threat range of 31".

ASSUMING you trigger Mighty Destroyers off the 2 squads of Gore-Gruntas + Gordrakk, you can expect to do upwards of 70 wounds in one activation, assuming you're facing a tanky army where the weakest save is 4+, and there's some FNP.

Full committal to the Alpha Strike. The Megaboss teleports himself to the front to Ironjawz WAAAAGH. Giving it to Gordrakk may be better, I don't know, that seems to be more a matter of practice, not theory. 18" is pretty big, all things considered.

Gore-hackas because that gives them 2+ to wound, since Choppas don't benefit from the +1/+1 on the charge, making Gore-hackas better on the charge, even with fewer attacks (and with +attack, that gap widens further).

Because of the teleport, the Megaboss can be parked in a piece of terrain hidden from shooting, or hidden behind Gordrakk, or something. Gordrakk has 28" movement with Mighty Destroyers, which also lets him be far away from danger.

Either way, 1 "activation" (or chain-activation), where you do 70 wounds, is pretty ridiculous.

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How does The Megaboss on Mawkrusha’s Strength through Victory rule  work?

  It starts with 15 wounds.  Say It takes five wounds in a combat, but in that same combat  it slays a model.  
 

How many wounds does it have left?  I think 11.  Is that right? 
 

i ask because last time we played my opponent insisted that it would still have only 10 ledt because the rule does not heal wounds taken, it only increases the wounds characteristic.  So the benefit is that if you’ve got a healing spell/ability you can build it back up to more than ot started with.

Thanks.

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33 minutes ago, Ken said:

opponent insisted

Your opponent was/is obviously wrong. You're making it complicated by counting down your wounds. Count up. If you've taken 5 wounds you've taken 5 wounds. If you've added say 3 wounds from the ability. Your opponent needs to score 18 total wounds to kill it. Counting wounds taken instead of wounds left is also faster when referencing the damage table.

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13 minutes ago, Ken said:

How does The Megaboss on Mawkrusha’s Strength through Victory rule  work?

  It starts with 15 wounds.  Say It takes five wounds in a combat, but in that same combat  it slays a model.  
 

How many wounds does it have left?  I think 11.  Is that right? 
 

i ask because last time we played my opponent insisted that it would still have only 10 ledt because the rule does not heal wounds taken, it only increases the wounds characteristic.  So the benefit is that if you’ve got a healing spell/ability you can build it back up to more than ot started with.

Thanks.

So this is mechanically this is slightly unintuitive due to how damage and wounds are calculated from that perspective as compared to how we think about them  from player perspective. Short hand answer, you are correct.

Long answer.

Mechanically there is no "wounds remaining" characteristic, this is never measured or even referenced in any of the rules.

  • The only number which is ever measured is "damage taken".
  • When the "damage taken" is equal to the wounds characteristic of a model, that model is slain.

So you are half right. It doesn't have "11 wounds left" what it has is 5 damage assigned and a wounds characteristic of 16.

Running through a few examples.

Example 1

  1. A Blightking has a wounds characteristic of 4.
  2. Due to the Nurgle Wheel it has +1 wound characteristic for that turn so it's wound characteristic is now 5.
  3. It has 4 damage assigned to it, as it has a wounds characteristic of 5 it's still alive.
  4. The wheel moves, the blightking loses it's +1 wound characteristic.
  5. The Blightking now has 4 damage asigned and a wounds characteristic of 4.
  6. It is instantly slain.

Example 2

  1. A character has a wounds characteristic of 10.
  2. When a damage is allocated to it on a 4+ it deals a mortal wound to the attacker
  3. Some how the wounds characteristic is raised to 15 for a turn.
  4. It is allocated 14 damage.
  5. You roll 14 times for the mortal wounds
  6. Next turn the wounds characteristic is reduced to 10.
  7. The character has 14 damage assigned and a wounds characteristic of 10.
  8. The character is slain.

Strength from Victory

  1. A Maw-Krusha has a wounds characteristic of 15.
  2. It takes 5 damage.
  3. At the end of the combat phase it's wounds characteristic is increased by 1.
  4. It now has 5 damage taken and a wounds characteristic of 16.
  5. It takes another 10 damage.
  6. It gains another wounds characteristic.
  7. It now has 15 damage taken and a wounds characteristic of 17.
  8. It takes another damage.
  9. It has taken 16 damage and has a wounds characteristic of 17.

Notes on Damage Tables

This is why the damage tables track how much damage has been taken NOT how many wounds are remaining. So if you cabbage has 5 stacks from SfV it has a wounds characteristic of 20. If it takes 14 damage it's profile only checks that, not that "it has 6 wounds remaining" so it's on it's bottom profile.

Hopefully this helps without being overly complicated.

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35 minutes ago, Ken said:

How does The Megaboss on Mawkrusha’s Strength through Victory rule  work?

  It starts with 15 wounds.  Say It takes five wounds in a combat, but in that same combat  it slays a model.  
 

How many wounds does it have left?  I think 11.  Is that right? 
 

i ask because last time we played my opponent insisted that it would still have only 10 ledt because the rule does not heal wounds taken, it only increases the wounds characteristic.  So the benefit is that if you’ve got a healing spell/ability you can build it back up to more than ot started with.

Thanks.

He'd have 11 wounds left. You track the number of wounds allocated to a model, so if he has 5 wounds allocated against a characteristic of 15 that is 10 left, if it has 5 wounds allocated against a characteristic of 16 that's 11 left. I hope they faq how it works with the damage taken table though, as you could argue that even if the krusha builds up to 20 wounds, the damage table is based on wounds taken not wounds remaining.

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8 hours ago, Malakree said:

There's also the quickduff on the cabbage which I REALLY dislike.  From that perspective I'm not sure I could ever play bloodtoofs without a Footboss to carry it. Combine that with my borderline obsession over Big G and that's probably why I'm list building them the way I am.

In fact in my first version I wanted to use Gordrakk as well and looked like this:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Destruction
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (540)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Megaboss (150)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
Ironfist (160)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125
 

Problem was I felt i was missing some bodies, and it was 5 drop. 
5 drop is not bad, but I tought 4 increase significantly my odd of going first, so at the end I went for Quickduff on the MK. 
My reasonning was if I go with the Krusha turn 1, it's because I'm winning the game right there, and if I have a doubt I'll save 
it for the mid-game and just go with Ardboys and/or Pig.

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2 hours ago, Warmill said:

I hope they faq how it works with the damage taken table though, as you could argue that even if the krusha builds up to 20 wounds, the damage table is based on wounds taken not wounds remaining.

This doesnt need FAQ, damage table is damage taken, and Srength from Victory grant extra wound. As soon as he hit a treshold his profile drop, even if he is at 25 wound.

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6 minutes ago, broche said:

This doesnt need FAQ, damage table is damage taken, and Srength from Victory grant extra wound. As soon as he hit a treshold his profile drop, even if he is at 25 wound.

Don't take my dream of a healing krusha away from me! No I totally agree that's how it works, but it would be a nice little perk if he could better after being wounded, especially when terrorgheists heal d6 wounds a turn.

Edited by Warmill
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5 minutes ago, Warmill said:

Don't take my dream of a healing krusha away from me! No I totally agree that's how it works, but it would be a nice little perk if he could better after being wounded.

That's what fixin beat is for!

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