AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[dnusha]

6 minutes ago, Boar said:

megabosses and command abilities discussion

 

 

22 minutes ago, ccconner777 said:

 Obviously needs an faq.

 

I'm just thinking what GW designers wanted to get from changing Megabosses. I think the whole idea was "wouldn't it be cool if megabosses would issue 3 commands instead of one!! Everyone would know they are the bosses, that would emphasize they are in charge and if you kill them - army is going to work way worse, than it used to be  , Lore friendly as well!!! COOL" And thats it. And here we are trying to figure out how it works. Plz GW team let us use any triple command!

[Boar]

16 minutes ago, dnusha said:

And here we are trying to figure out how it works. Plz GW team let us use any triple command!

There is possibility that it is deliberate, so as not too make it overpowered. Honestly even "just" triple Mighty Destroyers is very impactful.

[Smash]

1 minute ago, Boar said:

There is possibility that it is deliberate, so as not too make it overpowered. Honestly even "just" triple Mighty Destroyers is very impactful.

But we have already lost mad as hell for mobility shenanigans, and they nerfed mighty destroyers with only extra pile in in combat. If we then dont get tripple command on the generic commands it seems like a net loss. 

I guess it is good for inspiring presence.

[Boar]

7 minutes ago, Smash said:

But we have already lost mad as hell for mobility shenanigans, and they nerfed mighty destroyers with only extra pile in in combat. If we then dont get tripple command on the generic commands it seems like a net loss. 

I guess it is good for inspiring presence.

I mean there were many changes (like Brutes great ability f.ex) and what they will amount to in their totality we have yet to see.

[ccconner777]

3 hours ago, Boar said:

There is possibility that it is deliberate, so as not too make it overpowered. Honestly even "just" triple Mighty Destroyers is very impactful.

Agreed. I dont think we need triple all out attack or defence. Just being able to triple move in the hero phase is insanely valuable

[Smash]

On 9/13/2021 at 1:36 AM, Warmill said:

I had a lengthy discussion about this on the fb group and imo spamming all out attack and defence is perfectly valid. My boring technical reasoning is this:

Green shows what the trigger requirements are to issue the AOD  CA: use it when a unit is targeted. The purple is the second requirement: the unit that is targeted must receive the CA. The red is the benefit the unit gets.

So a unit is targeted, that triggers being able to use the CA from the megaboss, requirement 1 met. You can issue it to 3 units, one of whom will be the unit that was targeted: that fulfills the second requirement, THAT unit receives the CA, so you're then free to use it on 2 other units while still meeting the requirement. The CA doesn't say that the unit must BE targeted to receive AOD, only that the unit that IS targeted must, which it does as one of 3 units.

 

That's my rules lawyer argument, the real argument is of course it's intended for you to be able to spam CAs cos it's the battletome and it takes priority.

I agree with this post, and will argue this is how it works until a FAQ either confirms or denies it working with AOA and AOD

[PlasticCraic]

On 9/13/2021 at 9:36 AM, Warmill said:

I had a lengthy discussion about this on the fb group and imo spamming all out attack and defence is perfectly valid. My boring technical reasoning is this:

Green shows what the trigger requirements are to issue the AOD  CA: use it when a unit is targeted. The purple is the second requirement: the unit that is targeted must receive the CA. The red is the benefit the unit gets.

So a unit is targeted, that triggers being able to use the CA from the megaboss, requirement 1 met. You can issue it to 3 units, one of whom will be the unit that was targeted: that fulfills the second requirement, THAT unit receives the CA, so you're then free to use it on 2 other units while still meeting the requirement. The CA doesn't say that the unit must BE targeted to receive AOD, only that the unit that IS targeted must, which it does as one of 3 units.

 

That's my rules lawyer argument, the real argument is of course it's intended for you to be able to spam CAs cos it's the battletome and it takes priority.

I also agree with this - This has also been my own take on it, so thanks for laying it out much more clearly than I've been able to!

[PlasticCraic]

On 9/24/2021 at 11:22 PM, Chase said:

@PlasticCraic I just read your recent blog on kruelboys. I really liked Corey's take on the army. I was pretty uninterested in a gun line orruk army. This gave me hope for an army that's actually fun to play. 

https://plasticcraic.blog/2021/09/24/battletome-orruk-warclans-kruleboyz-with-corey-papinniemi/

Can you share anything about your upcoming IJ interview? Always looking forward to your write ups

Hey mate glad you enjoyed it!  Corey is a very analytical player as you would have got from the article, so it was a good opportunity to go down the well on the nuts and bolts of playing the army effectively - deployment, detailed turn 1 strategies and so on.

I'll be playing KB as something similar (combined arms / counterpunch) but my own current build is Double Croc.  Similar idea really, they flex between buffing your shooting then flipping to that big melee Waaagh turn. 

I'll be honest, IJ is the part of the book I've looked at least so far!  Bonesplitterz are "my dudes" and KB were the new shiny, so that's where I've focused my own energy up till now.  I'll figure something out by Friday but atm I'm thinking maybe I'll do 1 list from each Clan.  So not as in-depth as Corey's Kruleboyz piece (sorry!) but I'll def be covering Ironjawz this week!

[dnusha]

Hey guys i was thinking: Weirdnob General picks Touched by the waagh (d3 mw before casting to unit in 6', add caused MW number to casting roll) trait, and Arcane Tome (another spell to cast in hero phase because wizard) also picks Chromatic Cogs endless spells (another spell cast). 15 ardboyz for a Green Puke and Look out sir. Maybe Warchanter for 4+ ardboys Rally.

Hero phase with an enemy unit in your face:

Cast 1:

d3 MW before casting Cogs with TbtW, cast Cogs(6), d3 MW before casting GP with TbtW, cast Green Puke(6) for d3 MW

Cast 2: 

d3 MW before casting AB with TbtW, cast Arcane Bolt(5) (1 or d3 MW), d3 MW before casting GP with TbtW, cast Green Puke(6) for d3 MW

Cast 3: 

d3 MW before casting MS with TbtW, cast Mystic Shield(5) (or FOOT OF GORK if 3+ in any of the casts), d3 MW before casting GP with TbtW, cast Green Puke(6) for d3 MW

d3+d3+d3+d3+(1 or d3) +d3+d3 +d3 +d3+d3 + foot of gork. 

That's average 20 MW + foot of gork. 

long puke (3 of them) can hit multiple units(additional d3), shortest green puke is 3'

Weidnob is very vulnerable, look out sir and mystic shield won't help that much. Chances are we can roll double 1 or fail to roll 5-6. On the other hand mawcrusha still can pick amulet of destiny. It's ashort range damage but that's a lot of Mortal wounds. Is dis THE HOLY GRAIL OF MORTAL WOUNDS BOYZ?

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by dnusha

[swarmofseals]

@dnusha it tops out at a lot of mortals although I suspect it'll be pretty difficult to pull off in practice. Certainly a fun gimmick though!

It seems like you're suggesting you can fish for a 10+ for Foot of Gork, but spellcasting doesn't work that way. You have to declare the spell before you roll. That said, the procedure for casting a spell is "declare the spell and roll," and TbtW has you roll the mortals before you cast a spell so strictly RAW you can roll before selecting which spell to cast, so you could wait for foot until you roll a 3 on TbtW.

[dnusha]

13 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

@dnusha you could wait for foot until you roll a 3 on TbtW.

yeah that is how I imagined it, i should have been clearer(edited it), i initially thought to pick a cheaper spell but changed my mind just to make this whole thing even more absurd, 

Edited September 27, 2021 by dnusha

[swarmofseals]

36 minutes ago, dnusha said:

yeah that is how I imagined it, i should have been clearer(edited it), i initially thought to pick a cheaper spell but changed my mind just to make this whole thing even more absurd, 

Yeah, I think if you're going to go for this you're basically running a meme list and should just go for Foot of Gork. It'll lead to some great stories.

Why not go Big Waaagh and throw in a Rogue Idol for another +1 to cast, and a Wurrgog Prophet or two for more shenanigans?

[swarmofseals]

OK, this is probably not optimized but here's a draft of a full @dnusha meme list that is perhaps not actually that bad (albeit it'll get slaughtered by anything with a heavy ranged component):

Big Waaagh!

• Weirdnob Shaman A - General: Touched by the Waaagh!, Arcane Tome, Spell: Foot of Gork
• Weirdnob Shaman B - Spell: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
• Warchanter A - Fixin' Beat
• Warchanter B - Get 'Em Beat
• Orruk Megaboss
• Wurrgog Prophet - Glowin' Tattooz, Spell: Gorkamorka's Warcry
• 15 Orruk 'Ardboyz
• 15 Orruk 'Ardboyz
• 5 Orruk Brutes (Choppas)
• 3 Orruk Gore-Gruntas (Choppas)
• Rogue Idol
• Endless Spell: Chronomantic Cogs
• Command Entourage: Megaboss, Shaman B, Warchanter B
• Battle Regiment: everything else

Option: swap brutes for ardboyz and lifeswarm

Basically you can spike a ton of mortal wounds off the general or the wurrgog and can potentially get some insane casting bonuses, and still have a pretty tough line that can do a lot of conventional damage.

Another option is to swap shaman B for a Wardokk (spirit of the were-boar, probably) and swap out the battle regiment for warlord to take an extra spell on everything in order to get the GBGHoG on the general. Could also swap for a Swampcalla Shaman and swap the troops around to fit a 6 block of boltboyz.

[frostfire]

What does it mean that Mighty Destroyer only makes you pile in and not attack in the hero phase? What's the point of piling in the hero phase? 

Edited September 27, 2021 by frostfire

[PlasticCraic]

2 minutes ago, frostfire said:

What does it mean that Mighty Destroyer only makes you pile in and not attack in the hero phase? What's the point of piling

 in the hero phase? 

Virtually nothing, although you'll sometimes get it for "free" since Megbass CAs affect multiple targets - it might help you pile more models onto an objective, get Brutes in tighter to those 1-wound chumps than they would have been off a single pile in, and so on.

I doubt you'd often use it for this, but you'll sometimes get a minor ancillary benefit.

[frostfire]

4 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Virtually nothing, although you'll sometimes get it for "free" since Megbass CAs affect multiple targets - it might help you pile more models onto an objective, get Brutes in tighter to those 1-wound chumps than they would have been off a single pile in, and so on.

I doubt you'd often use it for this, but you'll sometimes get a minor ancillary benefit.

One of my local players pointed out this section in the Core Rules:

12.3 COMBAT ATTACKS

After you have made all of the pile-in moves for a unit, you must make

combat attacks with each model in the unit that is within range of an

enemy model (see 13.1.2).

 

meaning that you must attack after piling in, is that making any sense?

[frostfire]

Double post

Edited September 27, 2021 by frostfire

[Chase]

1 hour ago, frostfire said:

One of my local players pointed out this section in the Core Rules:

12.3 COMBAT ATTACKS

After you have made all of the pile-in moves for a unit, you must make

combat attacks with each model in the unit that is within range of an

enemy model (see 13.1.2).

 

meaning that you must attack after piling in, is that making any sense?

To me this is the only argument, in favor of attacking that holds any water in my opinion. FAQ should tell us soon I hope.

I have a hard time believing GW would give a Destruction army 6 attacking units in the hero phase. Also, that would  mean Bloodtoofs goregruntas get to attack twice in the combat phase.

So potentially you can have 2 Krushas fight twice, and 4 units of pigs fight 3 times. In one turn! Nah. We could only dream of such power.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Chase

[Kasper]

2 hours ago, frostfire said:

What does it mean that Mighty Destroyer only makes you pile in and not attack in the hero phase? What's the point of piling in the hero phase? 

As @PlasticCraic said you likely wont be using this too much, but it can enable some situations where you might pull a ranged unit into combat (by piling around the current unit you are fighting) to disable Unleash Hell or allow you to hit a hero standing behind. You essentially get to pile-in 6" in your turn which is quite a lot. Imagine fighting a screen that is standing on the edge of an objective, 6" means you can probably snake quite a few models around the unit and onto the objectives etc. 

Its really just another option/tool in your toolbox. This army is in general rather straight forward on the surface - Strong melee models that just want to smash things - But where it really shines and becomes "complicated" is the mobility/speed aspect of the army. 

1 hour ago, Chase said:

To me this is the only argument, in favor of attacking that holds any water in my opinion. FAQ should tell us soon I hope.

I have a hard time believing GW would give a Destruction army 6 attacking units in the hero phase. Also, that would  mean Bloodtoofs goregruntas get to attack twice in the combat phase.

So potentially you can have 2 Krushas fight twice, and 4 units of pigs fight 3 times. In one turn! Nah. We could only dream of such power.

I mean you can only ever fight twice and never more each turn, but yeah double fighting Pigs in in Bloodtoofs FOR FREE is just insane. There is ZERO chance "pile-in" = attacking. It will be FAQ'd for sure just to kill the endless questions about this. 

[PlasticCraic]

Great spot on counteracting Unleash Hell @Kasper

[Warmill]

5 hours ago, frostfire said:

One of my local players pointed out this section in the Core Rules:

12.3 COMBAT ATTACKS

After you have made all of the pile-in moves for a unit, you must make

combat attacks with each model in the unit that is within range of an

enemy model (see 13.1.2).

 

meaning that you must attack after piling in, is that making any sense?

It's just wishful thinking, piling in is  very clearly defined within 12.2. 12.0 to 12.1.2 is defining the sequence within the fight phase that goes pile in > attack and it's not the fight phase so doesn't apply.

 

Mighty destroyers only allowed a pile in in the 1.0 ironjawz book and grand allegiance destruction, there's plenty of precedent for it being pile in only.

[Malakree]

I did a tournament this weekend with Ironjawz, went 3-2 but both losses were the 2nd day on table 1 then 2.

So matchups

1. Survival of the Fittest vs 40 Irondrakes in greywater fastness. He was forced to go first so I couldn't just take and sit the objectives for the game. Got the double and won. (27-8)
2. Tectonic Interference vs beastclaw. I easily dismantled him and had tabled him by the end of 2. Ironsunz command ability absolutely won me the game when I was able to charge the MK's in during his turn 1 despite being forced to go first. (31-6)
3. Savage Gains vs Thunderlizard. MK's siezed his home objective while I held both my own and a side one, then pinned him on the last middle objective for 4turns. The game was a massive score fest which ended (49-26) in my favour.
4. Feral Foray vs Thunderlizard. I was able to apply a ton of pressure early but due to a late night the night before I misplayed my first turn a bit then my second MK failed to kill a stegadon. I held two of his objectives turn 2 but by turn 3 I'd lost it and was unable to do more than stall. ~(19-25)
5. The Vice vs 30 Irondrakes+Stardrake in Excelsis. We postured turn 1, I took prio turn 2 and was able to open his defences. Lost prio turn 3 and the game was over. I knew I needed to force it into the turn 3 priority roll off, if I'd won it I would have won the game. ~(18-26)

Overall I finished 13th with the 3rd highest VP total. Unfortunately I was the top of the 3-1 going into 5th round so had to face the bottom of the 4-0 who finished 2nd. I think had I faced any of the other 3-1's I would have been able to beat them comfortably as there were no seraphon or Irondrakes. As it's a WS10 event softscores play a reasonable part in the final standing which really tanked me down the rankings. On only win/loss/VP I'd have been top 3-2s.

Overall opinions.

Cabbages - I love them, the two of them were the real powerhouses of the list and are absolutely horrendous to face. The Armour of Gork+Fast 'Un was an awesome combo, not just for the 6++ ward but the +1 to hit was massive aswell.

Brutes - Man they hit hard, the only time they ever bounced was against a stardrake with +3 to save when they had no +1 damage (I really had no choice but to charge there  ).

Ardboys - These were actually the workhorses of the list. Their damage is ok but they are tanky for their points, they fill the frontline role amazingly.

Goregruntas - I found these to be mediocre. Only having 3 and them not being in bloodtoofs made them far less useful. As I had 2 cabbages and 10 Brutes they never received a damage buff so didn't hit amazingly hard. I'd say they are reasonable as medium cav.

Battletraits etc.
Mighty Waaagh! Leader was never relevant. It's to short range and due to my list I was always at 3" charges on my waaagh! turn anyway. I was also very CP starved a lot so I think the double MD would have been wasted aswell, would probably go for either the CP generation or the MW impact hits.

Fast 'Un+Armour of Gork is the ******, this and amulet of destiny will be my loadout whenever I run double cabbage.

Ironsunz is just what you'd expect, it's a huge threat that's also quite CP hungry. The main thing is it makes your opponents play around it so ironically you almost never have to actually spend the CP.

Ironjawz Waaagh! is so good it's unreal. I cannot stress how good this is. For that one turn you will go through everything like butter, the cabbages just eat everything and anything.

List Building
My main takeaway was that the double cabbage+brutes was both to expensive of a threat and didn't work well together. The Brutes weren't fast enough to hit with the cabbages so I pretty much always had 2 waves rather than 1 which combined with only 2 WC buffs meant one of the 3 didn't have the buff. In the future I'd say if I'm going double cabbage it's with Bloodtoofs or Ironsunz Ardboys. On the other hand Brutes I'd only run in Da Choppas with a single cabbage.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Da Choppas
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Warchanter (115)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Brutes (160)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (160)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Wounds: 150
Drops: 1

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (115)

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 132
Drops: 2

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Warchanter (115)

Battleline
15 x Orruk Ardboys (255)
- Reinforced x 2
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)

Total: 1955 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 138
Drops: 5

These would be the 3 that initially would be the basis for each clan although the Ironsunz one is unclean points distribution wise I'm not sure how I'd shift it.

[ShaneHobbes]

10 Brutes with gore-hackas with a +1D buff during Waaagh is so stupid I love it. 2x10 Brutes will be in every list. They delete everything they touch.

[ShaneHobbes]

26 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Ardboys - These were actually the workhorses of the list. Their damage is ok but they are tanky for their points, they fill the frontline role amazingly.

Was Rally ever a factor for them?

[Backbreaker]

I am completely lost! List building is really different and I don't know what direction to take. Gore Gruntas took a massive hit and I'm not sure they are the shock cavalry I used to like. Between Choppa and Ironsunz, I don't what to pick. I will have to buy new models, my 2000 points list is 1775 points now and it was an MSU to get +2 attacks with the waaagh.

Overall, it seems that playing two Krushas is the way to go. I need to proxy some way another Krusha.