AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Mayple]

I'm definitely onboard with how the cabbage is overcosted. Every time I get into the mindset of envisioning a functional Ironjawz army, I end up removing it altoghether in favour of more Megabosses and such, with the mindset that they're tiny monsters all on their own, and heck of a lot more survivable on foot. The fact that I can get three of them into an army with 20 points to spare compared to a single mawcrusha makes the latter a difficult justification. That's 21 wounds which benefits from "look out sir" versus 14 that does not, with a combined overall damage output that should match, if not outright beat the mawcrusha's. 

The real trade-off is not in survivability or damage output though, but mobility - which has it's own impact lessened by the mawcrusha's -massive- base, making it way more difficult to maneuver around than one would expect of a flying monstrosity

If you can somehow provide the megabosses on footwith some much neeeded speed, then I think they might be the superior option. Offensively, defensively, and in terms of stacking up the unit numbers for your great waagh*. 

Thoughts? 

 

*Maybe the Mawcrusha interacts better with the waagh buff due to having more weapons? 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Mayple

[Luzgurbel]

Of course the MK gets a major bonus from Waaagh thanks to the attacks of its mount -though, the damage output of a footboss versus the mountedboss is overall better, thanks to its better to hit attribute, and more attacks from his weapon.

 

We are slow, but we have some battalions that reduces this malus, such as Ironfist and Gorefist -imo, I don't see an issue with this. I'm more concerned of lack of synergies, overcosts and no summoning. And no special deployments or teleports. This both rules -teleport+special deployment are the special stars of AoS 2.0 from my point of view -plus summoning, of course.

[Mayple]

@Luzgurbel I agree with the special deployment/teleport sentiment, however, I think summoning is a bit overrated, and not at all a requirement to "keep up" so to speak

 In my experience (Nighthaunt and Khorne excluded), if you press for an early advantage against a summoning army, you should be able to limit their overall effectiveness by either a) killing more than they're bringing back, or b) moving far enough forward that they have to summon things in behind them, effectively delaying or outright nullifying the summoned unit's ability to affect the battle as far as objectives are concerned. 

On the other side of it, if the summoning army gains an early advantage, they are often able to solidify the lead by increasing their already superior power/numbers, but I often get the impression that by that point they'd have won anyway, regardless of their summoning. The increased cost of summonable units is what keeps it in check, I think. Less to deal with initially, and by the time it reaches "optimal" size, you've either already lost, or beaten them ?

Anyway, I digress. You're right, Ironjawz definitely needs some cunningly brutal tricks/abillities to smooth out their game experience

[broche]

6 hours ago, Malakree said:

The problem isn't going to be fixed by an FAQ, they just got the points wrong.

Agreed, but I think you can still have some fix in the FAQ.

1. Idoneth: right now Heel are just stupidly underpriced compare to anything else in the army. However small fix like limiting Volturnos once per turn or units or limit the +3 charge to once would make them a bit more fair.

2. Daughter:  Beside their cost issue, Hag naar is just plainly stupid. Everyone unserstood that from day one, and it's the only thing player take. It shouldn't existed from the start, so they should just errata it. 

3.  Stormcast: Limit Graviel to once per turn. Sequitor is also a badly design warscroll IMHO, should be something like more the ardboys (shield absord some wound when you channel)

4. Death: More tricky to fix. I think what push Death over the top is realm spell as they already have their lore, good casting and big caster. I think Realm spells should have been more like: Choose a realm, you can take artefact and you may use spell of that realm instead your spell lore (maybe with each wizard knowing an extra spell instead of all of them)

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

16 hours ago, Mayple said:

I'm definitely onboard with how the cabbage is overcosted. Every time I get into the mindset of envisioning a functional Ironjawz army, I end up removing it altoghether in favour of more Megabosses and such, with the mindset that they're tiny monsters all on their own, and heck of a lot more survivable on foot. The fact that I can get three of them into an army with 20 points to spare compared to a single mawcrusha makes the latter a difficult justification. That's 21 wounds which benefits from "look out sir" versus 14 that does not, with a combined overall damage output that should match, if not outright beat the mawcrusha's. 

The real trade-off is not in survivability or damage output though, but mobility - which has it's own impact lessened by the mawcrusha's -massive- base, making it way more difficult to maneuver around than one would expect of a flying monstrosity

If you can somehow provide the megabosses on footwith some much neeeded speed, then I think they might be the superior option. Offensively, defensively, and in terms of stacking up the unit numbers for your great waagh*. 

Thoughts? 

 

*Maybe the Mawcrusha interacts better with the waagh buff due to having more weapons? 

Right on!

I played against Idoneth with a Maw Krusha for the first time in forever. He got rampaging destoyers off and charged turn one into the enemies front rank, did 3 MW with destructive bulk to a caster, then obliterated 10 Thralls with his fists. However, the megaboss whiffed his attacks on the weakened support heroes. This has happened so many times. Maw Krusha then got killed by a counter charge of eels after Brutish Cunning failed to pop for him. I ended up winning the game, but my unit of 10 Brutes did much more work, including killing all his eels and voltrunas. I have some tournaments coming up soon and I may go back to my balanced list without the maw krusha.

10 Brutes at 360 points with Jagged Gore Hakkas will erase anything it goes against (so long as they're supported). Bravery is a concern, but The Boss Skewer can help alleviate some of that

@Mayple completely agree with your assessment on the Maw Krusha's base-size deterring his movement advantage. On boards with lots of terrain, there isn't much space for him to go, especially if you're trying to get a crucial charge off in a tightly packed area. For my non-MK list, I give my Megaboss the Gryff Feather from Realm of Ghur. It gives +1M and -1 to hit with all attacks. Stuff him in with Brutes and get helped by Look Out Sir! and shooting attacks will rarely hit him. For WAAAGH!, I also bring the Orruk Warboss with War Banner. I can't stress enough how useful this has been for pushing all those Megaboss, Brute and Ardboyz attacks through and ensuring the target dies. 

[Goose madness]

Thermalrider Cloak on fotboss is really useful, +4 move and flying.

I use it all the time when I play smaller lists, he becomes a mini-mawkrusha.

[BobbyB]

The main things Maw Krusha brings IMO are speed and having lots of weapons and a massive base for the Waaagh, making the range of it effectively 36"ish

[broche]

Yeah Maw Krusha is expensive. But he is your best waaagh source, give you move, and mortal wound output.  But you still need to make sure you have enough bodies to cover the board. 

I've build an interesting list with a wyvern and a footboss. Wyvern is cheap and close to MK in survivability. She fill the waagh and flying need, so it's a good compromise

[Malakree]

30 minutes ago, broche said:

Yeah Maw Krusha is expensive. But he is your best waaagh source, give you move, and mortal wound output.  But you still need to make sure you have enough bodies to cover the board. 

Compared to the Dragonlord he's so overcosted it's unreal.

• Dragonfire is a 12" shooting phase attack which doesn't degrade vs the Destructive Bulk which only triggers on a charge.
• Same Wounds
• 2" extra movement at all profiles.
• 4+ rerollable save vs 3+ 
  Spoiler

   vs 

   

• [3] at 4+/X+/-2/d6 (So benefits from +hit) vs [4] at X+/3+/-2/3
• [X(6)] 4+/3+/-1/2 Strictly better than the tail
• 3 at 3+/3(2)+/-1/2 vs 4 at 3+/3+/-1/2

So we gain 1 attack with the Fists, 1 attack with the Choppa. 1 attack with the Rip-Tooth fist and +1 to save. We lose Reroll all saves and the claws which are infinitely better than the tail is. We also trade the Destructive Bulk for the much easier and more reliable Breath attack. Our only single advantage is the bellow which does nothing against a 4+ save 63% of the time.

For this privilege we pay 440 points instead of 340 points.

100 points functionally for the Waaagh! Given the choice I would pay 40 points more to take a Dragonlord and a Warboss with Great Waaagh! banner, think about that.

[broche]

but is the MK overcosted or Dragon lord undercosted

I feel like Mk should be more a 400ish and Dragon lord a 380ish. But dragon loard is kinda limited right now (lack of model in order draconis) but yes he is a really good model. And he is nowhere as undercosted as the frost phoenix. 

[Malakree]

42 minutes ago, broche said:

I feel like Mk should be more a 400ish and Dragon lord a 380ish. But dragon loard is kinda limited right now (lack of model in order draconis) but yes he is a really good model. And he is nowhere as undercosted as the frost phoenix. 

280 points hahahahahahaha, I hadn't even realised it was so cheap. God that's ridiculous. Why is it FREE to put an anointed on the back of one  that's so dumb I can't even articulate it properly.

I'd say that the MawKrusha should be 400, I agree with you on that, and the Dragon Lord at 380. The frostheart phoneix 400 with an anointed on it, maybe 340 without.

[broche]

So for Ironjawz i think what it mean is that if you use the MK , you need to compensate the fact he isn't a good bargain with cost effective unit. Doing a quick classification, i would rate our units choice roughly like this :

Good: Ardboys, Warchanter

Fair: Gruntas, Megaboss, Weirnob

Bad: Brutes, Maw Krusha, Gordrack, bataillion.

Allies list (fair or better, on top of my head): Fungoid/grot shaman, Moonclan Grots, Orruk Warboss, Wyvern, Troggoth Hag, Rogue Idol)

So paying a 40 extra for a MK don't have the same impact if your list include 60 ardboys (great bargain) than if you take it along 25 brutes (roughly same cost as your 60 ardboys, but 45 less lifes).

Strong list tend to favor a high proportion of cost-efficient unit so to compete we have to do the same.

[Luzgurbel]

Did anyone give a try to Gordrakk + BCR battalions? It seems its command ability is quite impressive with something like that. For example, Gordrakk + Braggoth.

 

 

[ShaneHobbes]

Anyone been leaving feedback on GW AoS page for GH2019? Seems the time to do now that they're actively asking for suggestions on balancing.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/14/14th-nov-the-generals-handbook-2019-we-need-yougw-homepage-post-3/

[Malakree]

11 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Anyone been leaving feedback on GW AoS page for GH2019? Seems the time to do now that they're actively asking for suggestions on balancing.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/11/14/14th-nov-the-generals-handbook-2019-we-need-yougw-homepage-post-3/

I made a massive post about what points alterations we need. Contrary to my pie in the sky stuff I post on here I tried to actually be reasonable on there  

[Luzgurbel]

Do you have a link, @Malakree?

[Andrew G]

Assuming there's no changes to Waaagh! stacking (sifting through the GHB 2019 suggestions, there seems to be a pretty big push to eliminate it. Hopefully GW has better sense.) 

Mawkrusher- 420

All battalions- Reduce by 20 points.

GGs- Charge rolls of 8+ trigger the hooves d3 damage. Either that, or nerf their equivalents(enlightened, eels, skullcrushers) significantly. 

'ardboyz- 160/420

Brutes- I don't like dropping them to 160. Rather have a tweak to make them worth 180. The new bravery artifacts help a lot, but the opportunity cost is too high with broach,ignax/cuirass, thermalrider being so valuable to our army. 

If the MK becomes cheaper, maybe change the ability on the Footboss to grant battleshock immunity/+ Bravery to Brutes within 6" along with the reroll 1's. Makes the choice between MK, Footboss, Banner at little bit harder and helps Brutes out at the 180 price point. 

Anyway, this is always hard to do without knowing the changes their making to the current top armies.
 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

Assuming there's no changes to Waaagh! stacking (sifting through the GHB 2019 suggestions, there seems to be a pretty big push to eliminate it. Hopefully GW has better sense.) 

All they need to do to fix this is remove the Aetherquartz Broach, along with about 50% of the artefacts in the Malign Sorcery book.

[Mayple]

6 minutes ago, Malakree said:

All they need to do to fix this is remove the Aetherquartz Broach, along with about 50% of the artefacts in the Malign Sorcery book.

Was thinking the same. I kind of like the stackable abilities, to be honest. Pushes the game into a sort of space where you -can- punish someone hard if they just run blindly into your stuff with no plan or counterplan whatsoever. That's healthy for the game, in my view.

 

[broche]

2 minutes ago, Malakree said:

All they need to do to fix this is remove the Aetherquartz Broach, along with about 50% of the artefacts in the Malign Sorcery book.

Broach will get FAQ thats almost a certitude. when you mean remove 50%, you mean the bad one? cause much artefact are either pretty crappy, or ok at best. They few that stand out were already nerfed except the broach.  The few good one left are like Ghyrstrike, Gryph feather charm, etheral amulet and ignax scale but nothing so much game breaking here.

[Malakree]

48 minutes ago, broche said:

Broach will get FAQ thats almost a certitude. when you mean remove 50%, you mean the bad one? cause much artefact are either pretty crappy, or ok at best. They few that stand out were already nerfed except the broach.  The few good one left are like Ghyrstrike, Gryph feather charm, etheral amulet and ignax scale but nothing so much game breaking here.

• Sunderblade, Ghyrstrike, Aboreal Stave, Hypersnare Seeds, Jade Diadem
• Amberglaive, Rockjaws, Beastcaller's bones, Gryph-Feather Charm
• Rune Blade, Crucible of Molten Silver, Chamonite Darts, Gildenbane, Argent Armour, Hydroxskin Cloak
• Ruby Ring, Magmadroth Blood Vials, Purefire Brazier, Exile Torch, Essence of Vulcatrix, Thermalrider Cloak, Ignax's Scales
• Wraithbow, Splintertooth, Ethereal Amulet, The Ragged Cloak, Goblet of Draining
• Miasmatic Blade, Blade of Folded Shadows, Dimensional Blade, SoJ, Spellmirror, Doppelganger Cloak, Betrayer's Crown
• Luminary Rod, Prism Amyntok, Aetherquartz Brooch, Lens of Refraction, Guardian's Coronet

Bolded has to go, they alter the game in to much of a serious fashion to stay.
Italic is all to do with yet more mortal wounds.
The rest are -hit or +hit which are also bad for the game in it's current state. Specifically the amount of stuff which does extra things on a 6+ means they are bad, once the 6+ has been fazed out completely for unmodified roll of a 6 it becomes way less egregious.

[broche]

what do you mean by affect the game on a too serious manner? you bolded thing like rend 3 weapon. For me it's just a good item, not much too get over excited. Same goes for thermarider cloak.  Sword of justice is really gimmick. Most stuff you wrote i don't even remember or see it in any list so either poeple missed something or it's really bad.

Going thru blood and glory top list, i saw: 2 x thermal rider cloak, 2 x dopleganger cloak, 1 x ignax scale, 1 x etheral amulet, 1 x SoJ. 

So 7 out of 18 artefact are from malign sorcery. And idonteh IMHO it's really a arguable choice between Dopleganger and Cloud of Midnight. Not sure how that break anything. 

What breaking the game right now are:

1. Hag'naar:  I can live with a hard hitting army. A hard hitting army with a 5++ is another story. Flawed design from start on that one.

2. Idoneth high tide: Having a whole army strike first just don't work (especially when you can stack attack on hard hitting model that have 14'' move and can deep strike, and can ditch mortal wound defensively). You can see it like Smash and bash, but smash and bash have a condition.

3. Nagash: with +3 to cast/unbind and NINE cast / unbind, Nagash basically negate the magic phase for a lot of army. When you add Malgin sorcery and actually add to his know spell, it just doesn't work. I think it can easily be fix by applying the artefact rule to spell (each Wizard can know an additional spell from ther allegience lore or army realm)

4. Stormcast: Graviel stacking +3 to charge. And bring back unit on 5+ ability, another bad designed ability. High variance game-winning ability are never good.

[Malakree]

I mean they give access to tools which break some heroes. Thermal rider cloak stonehorn, ethereal amulet VLoZD, jade diadem frostheart Pheonix, SoJ bombs, doppelganger cloak are all ridiculous.

Next you have the exiletorch, amberglaive, hypersnare seeds and arboreal stave. Four random "oops I win the game" relics. Exactly the same sort of awful that the aetherquartz broach is but stronger and less consistent.

Lastly is the two -3 rend which warp the power of some heroes weapons. A example of this being the Cabbages weapons, it turns the no rend option into -3, this has game breaking potential on an overlooked heroes weapon, all hero attacks have to be designed under the knowledge they could be -3 rend.

[broche]

ok ok I get you're point, but we don't have the same definition of game breaking. A Stonehorn isn't breaking the game cause it can move 16 and fly. He just become better (or playable).

Jade diadem on pheonix, problem isn't the diadem, it's the Phoenix that is breaking the game. 12 life at 2+ 4++ for 280 with a -1 to wound bubble is just insane. We can hope this kind of ability to disappear in the future.

 exiletorch, amberglaive, hypersnare seeds and arboreal stave are easy to avoid as they have really limited range. I agree i'm not a fan of those kind of ability, but those kind of ability already exist on other form (brutish cunning, soul of the stormhost). Bottomline, they are bad item. nobody seem take them. 

Rend 3 just increase damage output of a weapon. Really, nothing breaking the game in here. Most of the time it's just worse than buff to hit or damage.

That left us with Etheral amulet and Cloak. Both excellent item. Maybe they should be FAQ (limit etheral to 4+ and no reroll?, or cloak to once per game)

Broach is different. All army get a pool of 5 + X CP during the game.  With broach, you get (5 + X) * 1.5.  In comparaison, the free poeple trait that give CP give you 1.66 per game.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, broche said:

ok ok I get you're point, but we don't have the same definition of game breaking. A Stonehorn isn't breaking the game cause it can move 16 and fly. He just become better (or playable).

Jade diadem on pheonix, problem isn't the diadem, it's the Phoenix that is breaking the game. 12 life at 2+ 4++ for 280 with a -1 to wound bubble is just insane. We can hope this kind of ability to disappear in the future.

 exiletorch, amberglaive, hypersnare seeds and arboreal stave are easy to avoid as they have really limited range. I agree i'm not a fan of those kind of ability, but those kind of ability already exist on other form (brutish cunning, soul of the stormhost). Bottomline, they are bad item. nobody seem take them. 

Rend 3 just increase damage output of a weapon. Really, nothing breaking the game in here. Most of the time it's just worse than buff to hit or damage.

That left us with Etheral amulet and Cloak. Both excellent item. Maybe they should be FAQ (limit etheral to 4+ and no reroll?, or cloak to once per game)

Broach is different. All army get a pool of 5 + X CP during the game.  With broach, you get (5 + X) * 1.5.  In comparaison, the free poeple trait that give CP give you 1.66 per game.

So the issue with all of these isn't so much the artefact themselves, it's what you can do with them. Obviously.

As an example, the WC SoJ bomb, probably one of the most ridiculous things in the game at the moment. It has other "less extreme" examples such as the tenebrael shard SoJ, it goes from a threat to squishy heroes which it probably won't trade equal on points with to something which can easily assassinate 400+ points of general.

Jade diadem is a problem on anything which can stack heavy save buffs, just because sacrosanct is OP as sin doesn't mean that the old classic of Stardrake with save stacking wouldn't love the ****** out of this artefact.

Ethereal amulet breaks a whole variety of monster heroes, it makes a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon absolutely horrific. You add on either a slow time cogs or a mystic shield. Suddenly it's a 3+ rerolling 1s (or all) save followed by a 6++, heal a wound if it kills something in the combat phase, heal d6 wounds once per game, -1 to hit. Totally not utter filth.

The reason that things like Exiletorch etc. aren't used is because the Cloak is a strictly better version of them. It has a very real chance of making a hero functionally invulnerable during the combat phase, if the broach wasn't mandatory for us we would be running cabbages with this while laughing our asses off.

With the Thermalrider Stonehorn, you say it makes him "playable". Take a moment to realise what this means, it means there is a character who is bad enough and expensive enough to be considered unplayable. A character which the Thermalrider cloak makes part of a top table list, better than all the other destruction options which would normally be considered better than it.

-3 rend
For the -3 rend I agree it's slightly tricky to see why it's a potential issue, it comes down, again, to the potential interactions with other things which exist in game. There is a huge difference, for example, between the Verminlord Doom Glaives 4 attacks at 3+/3+/-1/3 and 3+/3+/-3/3 or the Corruptors 10 attacks of 3+/3+/-/1 and 3+/3+/-3/1, a Dragon Ogor Shaggoth gain -3 rend on his 3 damage attack. Hell our own Megaboss going from rend 1 on his axe to rend 3. Frostlord Frostspear, an Ogor Tyrant weapon profile looks very different if you make everything -3 rend.

A Skull taker becomes the equivalent of a mawkrushas fists for 100 points, only with RRhit/wound vs heroes, Lord of Slannesh gains -3 rend on his 4 3+/3+/-/2 attacks and can activate twice a combat phase for 140 points AND his mount still gets to attack. Shadowblade Assassin becoming a 6 attack 3+/3+/-3/d3 is suddenly terrifying for 80 points.

It probably feels like I'm pluming the depths, it's because I am. That's where the broken ass stuff is going to come from, that's the stuff which is not going to be accounted for when balancing or designing. Tenebrael Shard+SoJ is the perfect example of this, you think GW were considering this or the Warchanter bomb when they designed the SoJ.

Since the ideal is that every allegiance is equally playable, an unrealistic aim but one which as to be the aim, you have to consider that there are heroes with wonky weapons profiles which are designed around having minimal rend, bumping them straight to -3 makes them seriously perform beyond their points.

Conclusion
Is it fixable. The only artefact in the book which can't be fixed imo is the doppleganger cloak, everything else can be FaQ'd or rewritten into a more sensible item. For the -3 rend weapons that is making them increase the rend of a weapon by -1 instead, similar idea but doesn't have that potential for a massive swing. 

• Aetherquartz Broach. At the start of your turn roll a dice, on a 3+ add a command point to your command pool.
• Ethereal Amulet. Failed saves can no longer be rerolled for any reason.
• SoJ. Unmodified rolls of a 6.
• Jade Diadem, Unmodified rolls of a 6.
• Thermalrider cloak, Grants fly. At the start of your movement phase roll a dice. On a 1 reduce your movement by 2" on a 6 increase your movement by 4" on anything else increase your movement by 2"
• Exile Torch etc. Once per game, with conditionals based on the str of the effect.
• Doppleganger Cloak. Once per game at the start of the combat phase you may make a 6" flying move as though it were the movement phase but you cannot run.

All the +/- to hit/wound just need an errata which says "whenever an ability or warscroll says on a roll of a X+ it instead reads on an unmodified roll of X+"

Sorry for being perhaps a bit argumentative, I do honestly enjoy this kind of a discussion and find it to be the best way to reach a fair conclusion. 😄