AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Skabnoze]

2 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

There is not quite enough movement I think without the ironfist for this, although if your opponent is foolish and moves 4inches forward or more it is certainly a nasty surprise for them.

Well, if you go second you can possibly charge first turn.  Otherwise you will likely be unleashing this on the second turn.  I still think it has potential.  You don’t have to hit someone top of turn 1.

Another nice thing is that if you get hit with a big alpha strike yourself then you can eat the damage and bring the Ardboyz units back on as long as you protect the Warchanter early on.

I think the key to the ardfist is going to be keeping the warchanter alive early on and getting into combat as fast as possible.  You probably want to be able to recycle your Ardboyz units early rather than later.  Although, if he is in enemy territory and alive later in the game then you could bring units back in advantageous position.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Skabnoze

[broche]

Played this list tonight agains a Sylvaneth Gnarlroot (1 ancient, allarielle, Drycha, brachwraith, branchwitch 30 dryad, 2 x 5 revenant) :

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Gordrakk The Fist of Gork (580)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Golden Toof 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
- Allies
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 220 / 400
Wounds: 137

He took turn one to cast his buff and screen Ancient his character, but I hit a 6 with G for the free move and charged Ancient and Branchwraith in the back to kill them. Then i won the roll and killed Allarielle. Gordrack was on the rampage! List is fun, did not miss the ironfist. Wanted to try the sword but could not cast them unitl round 3 (game was over anyway). 

[Malakree]

13 hours ago, Turbo_Otter said:

I recently got a second Mawkrusha (which I'll build as the big bad G, obviously)

Personally I magnetised the hell outa my MK's just to make them more transportable.

One thing I would definitely recommend is doing it for the boss to the MK and the bosses banner off his back. This means if you paint your cabbages up to look distinct from each other you can transfer your bosses around them for variety when using them. 

[jondoe297]

Q, regarding ironfist battalion 

If you use the d6 move to retreat out of combat, can you still charge later in the turn (I've been playing not)

Also if you use the iron fist battalion can you not run in your move phase (again I've been playing no, but rereading the battalion, have a I read something that isn't actually there, or am I doing it right)

Cheers

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, jondoe297 said:

Also if you use the iron fist battalion can you not run in your move phase (again I've been playing no, but rereading the battalion, have a I read something that isn't actually there, or am I doing it right)

 

You can, the Ironfist specifically has no restrictions on running or moving later in the phase.

1 hour ago, jondoe297 said:

If you use the d6 move to retreat out of combat, can you still charge later in the turn (I've been playing not)

I don't remember where but I think I read something which implied to me you couldn't use it to retreat. Something to do with not being able to use it while within 3" of an opponent. I'll have a fish through the FAQ's and see if I can pull up a reason.

 

EDIT: Apparently I'm wrong on point 2 at least.

Quote

Q: Some abilities allow a model to make a move out of sequence (in the hero phase, for example), or to make a specific type of move (a ‘6" retreat move’, for example). Can I run when I make these moves?

A: You can only run if the ability refers to making a ‘normal move’ (which includes any move made ‘as if it were the movement phase’) and the ability doesn’t specify the distance of the move. Note that the restrictions that apply to normal moves (not moving within 3" of the enemy, and having to retreat if they start within 3" of the enemy) also apply to normal moves made in any other phase.

However, these restrictions do not apply to any other sort of move. So, for example, if the ability said ‘This unit can make a normal move’ the unit could run and could not move within 3" of the enemy unless it retreats, and if it said ‘This unit can move D6".’ then it could not run but could move within 3" of the enemy.

EDIT2: Checked the Ironfist wording.

It says "can move as if it were the movement phase but cannot run. So while it doesn't say "normal move" it is because it predates that term. So yes you could retreat but no you can't charge later.

Going to look up the Ironjawz rules wording, think there might be some shenanigans here.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Malakree

[jondoe297]

Cheers, I have no idea why I thought that about the run, good to know.

There's no mention in the new faqs which is why I brought it up.

I assume as it's  not a 'normal move it's legit to iron fist out and charge (If you pop a dice roll high enough)

Edited August 15, 2018 by jondoe297

[Malakree]

So as an extension of the question brought up by @jondoe297 there's something that I've been looking at which seems funky and am wondering if anyone can come up with a reason why it doesn't work.

Specifically it's for the following sequence.

1. Ironfist move to fall a unit back out of combat.
2. Mighty Destroyers trigger on the unit.
3. Unit makes a Charge move.

Now down to why I'm asking this. Firstly the Ironfist and core rules say

Quote

.....make its move in the same manner as a move in the movement phase, except that the unit cannot run.

Quote

Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat. If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units.

The core rules thus don't define a "retreat" as a different type of move. It's an addendum to a normal move rather than it's own type of movement. Since the Ironfist lets you move as if it were the movement phase this means you can use it to retreat.

Next is the Mighty Destroyers trait and the Core Rules FAQ part which matter.

Quote

That unit can....and can attempt a charge in any other circumstances.

Quote

Models in a unit that retreats can’t shoot or charge later in the same turn.

Quote

Q: If a warscroll or set of allegiance abilities has a rule that contradicts the core rules, can I use it? For example, Lord Kroak has a rule that allows him to attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the hero phase, but this contradicts the core rule that you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn.

A: Warscrolls and allegiance abilities take precedence over the core rules, allowing you to do things that would not normally be allowed. In the case of Lord Kroak, his rule means he can attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the same turn.

Thus while a unit couldn't normally attempt to charge having retreated with the Ironfist it CAN make a charge because of a Mighty Destroyers trigger.

Question then is.
Have I messed up anywhere, has anyone already been doing this and I'm just a numpty? Personally I always just assumed you couldn't retreat with the Ironfist move but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Skabnoze]

This whole line of thought is absurd.   Leaving combat implies you are scared of the enemy or unable to bash them into red paste.

This is the sort of conversation a bunch of sissy elves would have - not the meanest and greenest fighting machines in the mortal realms.

Shame on you all...

[Superninja]

No, just means that you want to bash that other guy over there real bad!

[broche]

@Malakree this rules is so confusing (the one that warscroll take precedence on core rule). I think RAW, you would be right. 

[jondoe297]

Although it predates the term, surely at the moment it is ok to move out of melee with iron fist move then move and charge another target later that turn (going by how the rules interact at the moment) . thought came up due to a discussion regarding FEC and one of their battalions.   

 

[Skabnoze]

59 minutes ago, broche said:

@Malakree this rules is so confusing (the one that warscroll take precedence on core rule). I think RAW, you would be right. 

To be fair, this is a pretty common rule in games and especially common in games that heavily rely upon synergy.  I was glad to see GW finally add a specific clause that stated this was the case.

The main problem is GW still has a sales reliance upon making some publications backwards-compatible with their new editions and they did a very poor job of updating rule verbage across all of the units for a new edition.

This type of rule is generally what allows designers to make some truly interesting, flavorful, and unique abilities.  Often times you can do very cool stuff by outright breaking the core rules.  However, you have to design the game to only break the core rules in specific circumstances that are narrowly defined.  You also need to make sure that most rules conform with the appropriate wording for the core rules.

This rule is fine, and it should be helpful for the designers to add interesting mechanics to the game.  The problem is how GW handled their old rules.  I understand that they still have a large part of their sales strategy wrapped up in army books and they are hesitant to errata them much in order to not ****** off customers by having books with large swathes of incorrect rules (like Kharadron Overlords), but they need to willing to make the required updates to rules text.

Honestly, they need to get better at pre-planning a vision for each game edition and then adhering to that for a long term duration of the edition.  That would help alleviate this issue.  But this is not a new problem for GW.  They have been slowly improving in this regard though. 

Hopefully they can reissue a lot of the books with the most crusty rules at a decently quick pace.

[broche]

44 minutes ago, jondoe297 said:

Although it predates the term, surely at the moment it is ok to move out of melee with iron fist move then move and charge another target later that turn (going by how the rules interact at the moment) . thought came up due to a discussion regarding FEC and one of their battalions.   

 

No you could only retreat with Ironfist and charge with Mighty destroyer. You still cannot charge in the charge phase cause you retreated.

[Mayple]

If it helps the discussion: Other hero-phase moves, like teleportation, does not count as a retreat, even if they teleported out of combat. Seraphon comes to mind.

Following that thinking, I would say that it would be a bit weird if a unit could move out of combat in the hero phase, do a normal move in the movement phase, and then not be allowed to attempt a charge. 

In the movement phase, a unit in combat has two options: remain in combat, or retreat. If they retreat, then they can't charge.

That limitation does not, to my knowledge, extend to the hero phase

Edited August 15, 2018 by Mayple

[Sangfroid]

Best thing to do is email the FAQs team and get an official answer 

 

however I have always played it as a retreat from combat because the ironfist says “makes its move in the same manner as the movement phase except it cannot run” 

if you move out of 3” in the movement phase this is a retreat. 

Doesn’t mean I’m right at all so a clarification from GW would be excellent but that’s how I have always played it at least 

[jondoe297]

I play it the exact same way, just a recent conversation has made me re think about it.

 

[Turbo_Otter]

I'm with @jondoe297 and @Sangfroid. I always treated the unit as a "retreating unit" for the rest of its turn. The mentioned shenanigans would be pretty tasty though...

Edited August 15, 2018 by Turbo_Otter

[PlasticCraic]

6 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

Best thing to do is email the FAQs team and get an official answer 

 

however I have always played it as a retreat from combat because the ironfist says “makes its move in the same manner as the movement phase except it cannot run” 

if you move out of 3” in the movement phase this is a retreat. 

Doesn’t mean I’m right at all so a clarification from GW would be excellent but that’s how I have always played it at least 

It used to be specified in an FAQ that you could use Rampaging Destroyers to retreat, but could not then charge later in the turn if you did so (it was one of the earliest FAQs in fact).  I don't think it's in there any more, because of the way Rampaging / Mighty Destroyers works now, but GW have overlooked that the Batallion move can still achieve the same thing.

The unit has moved out of combat so they have retreated, I don't think that's really in question.  I think where @Malakree makes a really interesting point is that the Allegiance Abilities say you can charge if you are within 12", which (arguably) overrides the core rule as per the cited FAQ.

Charging in the Charge Phase would be a definite no-no, you have retreated.  But charging with an Allegiance Ability that just says you can charge in the Hero Phase (no ifs, buts or maybes)?  In a world where Allegiance Abilities trump core rules?  I think you'd have a strong case personally.

I think you are right though @Sangfroid, it's one for the FAQ team.

And as an aside - hands up if you remember the first ever AOS FAQ, where it was bubbles of text on a painted background! ✋ ?

Edited August 15, 2018 by PlasticCraic

[Mayple]

Solid point @PlasticCraic

[jondoe297]

7 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

It used to be specified in an FAQ that you could use Rampaging Destroyers to retreat, but could not then charge later in the turn if you did so (it was one of the earliest FAQs in fact).  I don't think it's in there any more, because of the way Rampaging / Mighty Destroyers works now, but GW have overlooked that the Batallion move can still achieve the same thing.

The unit has moved out of combat so they have retreated, I don't think that's really in question.  I think where @Malakree makes a really interesting point is that the Allegiance Abilities say you can charge if you are within 12", which (arguably) overrides the core rule as per the cited FAQ.

Charging in the Charge Phase would be a definite no-no, you have retreated.  But charging with an Allegiance Ability that just says you can charge in the Hero Phase (no ifs, buts or maybes)?  In a world where Allegiance Abilities trump core rules?  I think you'd have a strong case personally.

I think you are right though @Sangfroid, it's one for the FAQ team.

And as an aside - hands up if you remember the first ever AOS FAQ, where it was bubbles of text on a painted background! ✋ ?

Again, I think this is where I got my thought process from. I remember reading somewhere you couldn't.  Guessing it was an old (AoS1) FAQ.

I completely disagree with the no charging in the charge phase (as it stands) you have not met the criteria for retreating. Which is carried out in the move phase as part of a 'normal move' when starting within 3 inches of an enemy (I expect I have massively paraphrased there)

I will carry on playing as old way because I believe that is the way its intended, but I certainly would struggle to argue against an opponent who wishes to use this as I believe at the moment the current wording allows it so.

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, jondoe297 said:

Again, I think this is where I got my thought process from. I remember reading somewhere you couldn't.  Guessing it was an old (AoS1) FAQ.

I completely disagree with the no charging in the charge phase (as it stands) you have not met the criteria for retreating. Which is carried out in the move phase as part of a 'normal move' when starting within 3 inches of an enemy (I expect I have massively paraphrased there)

I will carry on playing as old way because I believe that is the way its intended, but I certainly would struggle to argue against an opponent who wishes to use this as I believe at the moment the current wording allows it so.

The no charging if you use Ironfist to retreat is pretty much the one thing that seems guarenteed.

The issue here is specifically that you have a warscroll ability instructing you to make a charge, you can't choose to make the normal move instead of the charge. As a result it seems that's the allegiance would let you make the extra charge.

If you are attempting to make a charge without using a warscroll or allegiance which lets you do that having fallen back then you can't declare a charge in the charge phase.

[ShaneHobbes]

Not to derail the conversation about Ironfist + Mighty destroyers, would love to hear more on it, I've been having trouble against a Khorne army lately and was wondering if anyone had any advice. They tend to be fairly close games but I haven't won a single one as of late. My main gripe is my opponent fielding a battalion that uses double Slaughterpriests which lets him reroll his prayers - namely Blood Boil. He uses plenty of screening units, up to 30 bloodletters - which is by itself is pretty annoying since he'll buff them to +2 to hit on top of the +1 they get to do mortal wounds on 3's, but at least I can reach them. Plenty of blood reavers as well among wraith mongers and blood warriors.  I was thinking spellcasters might be the way but each slaughterpriest can unbind plus he has some annoying thing that makes me reroll my spells  Any attempt to get my maw krusha close ends up with him taking 2D6 mortal wounds. I've come to loathe these priests immensely. Any thoughts?

Edited August 17, 2018 by ShaneHobbes

[PlasticCraic]

Khorne are generally a very bad matchup for Ironjawz.  They punish you for having output in the Combat phase (Blood Warriors hitting you on the way down), they have a strong magic phase due to the Prayers and anti-magic, and in principle Ironjawz can't reach their heroes which are key.

Allied Spear Chukkas are a great way to get around that.  A battery of 3 comes in at 360 points, and should take off pretty much a Priest a turn between them.

They combo nicely with the Maw Krusha because you can soften up a target and then smash it up with Destructive Bulk, hopefully triggering On Da Rampage.  The crew are very vulneraable, but the best thing is he can't reach them himself in this matchup.

You might already be aware of this, but one way to minimise their pile ins is to tag the edge of a big unit with some Gore Gruntas, and hit the other side with your damage unit.  

Another one to watch out for is to charge over the top into his nest of heroes.  So if you can spread out and make him go first (Khorne can't generally hit you Turn 1), you can draw him into spreading out to challenge for objectives.  (MSU Gore Gruntas again are essential).

With the 12" hero phase move on your Maw Krusha you can be 3" away with your Mighty Destroyers move, then fly right over the top in the movement phase (remembering that Mighty Destroyers is no longer limited to 6").

You will generally need to be pretty cagey with your Maw Krusha I think.  This is not the game to Yolo him unfortunately - you need to engineer a situation for him to clear house with his heroes as described above, or make him go first and use the MK for the counter punch.

Honestly you will still need to play well and roll well to come out on top.  They have a much better toolset to work with than us, with a full array of units to choose from (including chaff), Prayers, allies such as Slaves to Darkness that don't count as Allies and get keyword synergy, and so on.  But those are some tools you do have that can rebalance things a little.

Edited August 17, 2018 by PlasticCraic

[ShaneHobbes]

44 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Khorne are generally a very bad matchup for Ironjawz.  They punish you for having output in the Combat phase (Blood Warriors hitting you on the way down), they have a strong magic phase due to the Prayers and anti-magic, and in principle Ironjawz can't reach their heroes which are key.

.....

Thank you for the advice, it's very helpful! Unfortunately playing well and rolling well are not my two best traits at AoS at the moment but I like to think I'm learning (I only really started this summer).

Do you think a second maw-krusha would help, force him to prioritize or too much of a point sink? I been wanting to get a second MK anyway.

Just so happens that I have two rock lobbers on the way that I ordered a couple weeks ago. I didn't even think about spear chukkas and I just looked them up and they sound like they'd be amazing. Being a big fan of goblins and artillery, I'll stock up on 2 or 3. Hell maybe a couple doom divers for good measure.

Just for fun I may try a weirdfist against him while including a second weirdknob, a moonclan grot shaman, some Quicksilver Swords, as well as a Rogue Idol despite his unbinding and reroll shennanigans. I really love the model and a potential Foot of Gork on a 7 and a Curse of Da Bad Moon on a 5. 

Edited August 17, 2018 by ShaneHobbes

[Skumbaagh]

Shane try a third rock lobber while you are at it. I think they will work very well against big chaff units as well as against heroes that are unprotected. That flat 3 damage needs only two hits to kill most footy heroes and you can also attack that hidden bloodsecrator hiding behind a rock.