AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[novakai]

kind of sad that they weren't specific about the IJ point changes like some of the other previews, 20 pt reduction on Brute and Ardboyz sounds about right though

[Scurvydog]

Any IJ cost change can only really be taken into a proper perspective when we know about any potential allegiance ability changes though, hoping for a preview tomorrow, fearing nothing is changed from GHB 18 at all though.

[Malakree]

59 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Any IJ cost change can only really be taken into a proper perspective when we know about any potential allegiance ability changes though, hoping for a preview tomorrow, fearing nothing is changed from GHB 18 at all though.

I'm more hopeful they randomly make the MK 200 points than we get amazing allegiance abilities.

Literally every year they release the IJ allegiance abilities, I post (I realise not just me but generally nobody else is quite as abusive) about "oh btw this is how you abuse the ever living ****** out of it" and it gets errata'd 🙄. They specifically changed the IJ allegiance ability to be different from the destruction one last year to stop us doing the 36"+ charge with ardboys and instead we have the 40"+ sprinting around the board 🤣.

[novakai]

leak point changes according to TheHonestWargamer stream (prepare for disappointment)

Gordrakk 560

MB on MK: 420

Ardboyz: 140

Brutes: 170

Ardfist: 160

Bloodtoof: 80

Ironsunz: 80

Ironfist 160

weirdfist: 160

Gorefist: 170

Edited June 14, 2019 by novakai

[Andrew G]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

leak point changes according to TheHonestWargamer stream (prepare for disappointment)

Gordrakk 560

MB on MK: 420

Ardboyz: 140

Brutes: 170

Ardfist: 160

Bloodtoof: 80

Ironsunz: 80

Ironfist 160

weirdfist: 160

Gorefist: 170

This is actually way better than I anticipated. The upcoming command point change ruined my gorefist, but most of my counterpunch lists got 100+ points cheaper. I'm going to a tourney June 30th,  which is absolutely perfect as I'll be able to utilize the IJ point drops without having to use the early July FAQ where I'm assuming Fungoids are going to 100 or 110. 

[novakai]

Sad that Maw Krusha are still a bit overpriced but cheaper battalion are around are always always nice.

[Reuben Parker]

I think new points really boosts ardfist. 

Either can do min size with double MK and support heroes 

or mass ardboyz and chanters. 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Reuben Parker

[Rock Lobster]

3 hours ago, novakai said:

leak point changes according to TheHonestWargamer stream (prepare for disappointment)

Gordrakk 560

MB on MK: 420

Ardboyz: 140

Brutes: 170

Ardfist: 160

Bloodtoof: 80

Ironsunz: 80

Ironfist 160

weirdfist: 160

Gorefist: 170

Anyone who is disappointed I gave fair warning, 10-20 points is usually all they move for units, sadly this equates to probably another 10 ardboyz in your list in a meta that is twice a ruthless as it was a year ago. It is going to be a rough old year for ironjawz. That being said we are used to being at the bottom of the pile so lets look at winners and losers:

Ardboyz - big winner

The best unit in the book of the 3, hands down. Before hand there were trade offs between the power of the brutes and the low cost of the gruntas and it was tough to pick. Now from a pure efficiency standpoint it is not close. Ardboyz are the best choice, offensively, defensively with similar mobility to gore gruntas on the charge and benefiting most from waaghs and being the joint cheapest. I think this was a massive error in good army design and allocating points and is such a shame since they are the worst sculpts, but the reality is that if you are min/maxing for a tournament, these are your unit of choice now. The good thing is you dont have to aim for a regiment discount any more (which is good since 30 was almost unusable with 1" reach and 32mm base). Units of 20 are a solid pick, units of 10 also great with multiple waaagh, ruins the other unit options.

Bloodtoofs one drop - big winner

If you are taking an ironfist I believe this is an auto-include. 80 points gets you a 50 point value command point and for the other 30 points you get an artifact, +2 bravery (sorely needed) on your whole army and you become 1 drop. If you are taking an ironfist and not taking this, you better have a phenomenal reason. Combined with the change in the ironfist that is 60 points returned to your pocket.

Megaboss on foot - Winner and actually in line with other books in terms of cost!

The drop doesn't help the army out a ton, but this is exciting as it is one of the few places I can look at and say the character feels the right cost and is in line with similarly costed characters which is great. Maw krusha you look at and say, dear god how is this thing so much more expensive than a keeper, bloodthirster, grislegore monstrosity etc, but the megaboss you say - looks about right.

Ironfist / gorefist - winners

The ironfist or gorefist is almost mandatory given the slow speed of the army, points drops here are gravy for almost any list.

Maw Krusha and Gordrak - slight winners in absolute terms / losers against any similar fighting flying monsters

20 points is nice, hooray, but lets be real, these guys are outclassed by a ton of other armies monsters who are 40-100 points cheaper. In real terms they are horribly overcosted, in our army terms they are essential being the only survivable waagh user with any decent sized bubble, faster than everything else and can fly over screens. So basically its the best we got, and the best we got is now 20 points cheaper so yes we suck comparing to other books, but we suck ever so slightly less.

Brutes - slight winners in absolute terms / losers in internal balance

Lets be fair, a 10 point saving is a joke. If these guys were 150 they wouldn't be setting the world on fire. That said 10 points is 10 points. Problem is that a 30 points cheaper they are massively outclassed by the ardboyz, which is a tragedy as they are MUCH better models.

Gore gruntas - slight losers on internal balance

They are better than brutes because of their lower cost and higher speed, but lets get real. Putting the quite fast, more durable and much more punchy ardboyz at the same cost as the Gore gruntas means you are probably going for a gorefist or going for Ardboyz

Ardfist - slight winner, but not really viable

Ardfist is cheaper, ardboyz are cheaper, this is almost great. Problem is that it relies on your warchanter surviving. In modern AOS there is almost no way to keep a 6 wound hero alive if your opponent wants it dead. Only way to survive is to hide, and hiding means stuff comes back on your board edge. It will be underwhelming compared to what you think it will do on paper.

Other battalions - losers

They are still rubbish battalions and they remain rubbish - a brute fist would need to be a max 100 points before I would consider taking it, and if I did It would still be worse then saving the extra 60 for an ironfist. Wierdfist puts all your eggs in a wierdnob basket, a wierdnob that saw no discount and is terrible, in a meta where almost every army can kill a small hero in 1 turn and the whole battalion is wasted.

Wierdnob shaman - massive loser

This one boggles the mind, he is one of the worst casters in the game for his points, a spell that is almost uncastable even with max buffs, 1 cast and unbind, hurts surrounding units and the same cost as the mighty 2 cast grey seer with his plethora of useful spells. I actually got caught out by this one, I thought 20 point drop for sure. Nope! Same points, hot garbage, only include for rule of cool and ally in any other wizard.

-------------

Overall

The big disappointment here is not the discounts which I expected to be disappointing and fairly underwhelming. The thing that makes me sad is that if I want to have the hardest list I can, the way they have costed the units means my least favorite choice and the worst models to own and paint are the best option by far. You dont need to use ardboyz, but doing so is an advantage, no question. This feels like it reduced options if you are looking for the best list you can make rather than growing them.

I think further discounts on the brutes and another 10 points off the gruntas would have made for more interesting choices, addressing the wierdnobs terrible price point would have also led to some list changes. As it is, the best army looks like a bloodtoofs with a pile of ardboyz, not fun to collect, paint or look at, but no question stronger than pre-GHB 2019.

[Rock Lobster]

1 fun bit of comedy value you could do (but still terrible... but still fun) is take 5 megabosses, saving a cool 100points, 10 ardboys and a wizard with the death bridge from forbidden power. turn 1, teleport 5 megabosses across the table some 16-20" with a screen of ardboys that give them -1 to hit from shooting and allow them to all pile in and get nasty if the ardboyz get charged if they get the turn. If you get the double turn, or survive their onslaught, 5 megabosses go in and waaagh as many times as humanly possible turn 2 into your opponents lines with comical results.

Note that the forbidden power stuff works well for ironjawz so worth considering. The boat can ensure a unit of 20 ardboyz gets in combat turn 1 easily with all their charge bonuses. They wont be buffed with Waaaghs and things probably, but it would be great for collapsing a weak flank etc. Ardboyz are great with the bridge as well as you can charge out of the bridge with the charge bonuses and make it in without too much trouble with as much as +5 to charge if you also do cogs for that turn 1 alpha strike.

The bridge can also make your ardfist actually work, giving the warchanter a way to cross over the middle of the table turn 2 from his hiding place. Meaning you move up turn 1, throw all of your units into combat to mash things up and probably in some cases die, then before the warchanter dies summon back reinforcements behind the enemy rather than in your own backfield.

 

[Superninja]

Gordrakk fits into a bloodtoofs list now, so gonna have to try that.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (580)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Boss Skewer

Battleline

Units
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2200 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 135
 

Minus 200 points from reduction and it fits exactly.

 

 

Otherwise...meh.  I want to see the 'updated' allegiance abilities...

Edited June 15, 2019 by Superninja

[Rock Lobster]

8 minutes ago, Superninja said:

Gordrakk fits into a bloodtoofs list now, so gonna have to try that.

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (580)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline

Units
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2200 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 135
 

Minus 200 points from reduction and it fits exactly.

 

 

Otherwise...meh.  I want to see the 'updated' allegiance abilities...

indeed, it is a massive shame though that you cant actually use your extra 2 artifacts with big G in there.

[Superninja]

added the 2nd artefact...but yeah sucks to lose out on the 3rd.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Superninja

[novakai]

Yeah, Ardboyz at that point cost is really good now and I think Ardfist has potential even if it difficult to keep the warchanter alive against certain armies.

though an overall point decrease for Ironjawz while doesn't propel them upward competitively still a nice buff to have in the bigger picture.

I have a feeling though that their new Battletome maybe still a ways out sadly.

[Shankelton]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

Yeah, Ardboyz at that point cost is really good now and I think Ardfist has potential even if it difficult to keep the warchanter alive against certain armies.

though an overall point decrease for Ironjawz while doesn't propel them upward competitively still a nice buff to have in the bigger picture.

I have a feeling though that their new Battletome maybe still a ways out sadly.

Yup. Brightside, maybe it will have some tasty content and models when it comes around.

 

Bit of a tinfoil hat moment, but if Bonespittaz and Guts have immenant battletomes, perhaps BCR will get their much needed release and Ironjawz will be last. To kick off the next big event which they've said will have a destruction focus. With the kit release to make them the proper orruk faction.

 

Paint up da boyz. Its comin.

[Malakree]

8 hours ago, novakai said:

leak point changes according to TheHonestWargamer stream (prepare for disappointment)

Gordrakk 560

MB on MK: 420

Ardboyz: 140

Brutes: 170

Ardfist: 160

Bloodtoof: 80

Ironsunz: 80

Ironfist 160

weirdfist: 160

Gorefist: 170

Welp back to waiting for the next battletome. Unless the allegiance changes are ridiculous then IJ are still hellishly overcosted.

[Tellos57]

If I have been reading the community page correctly I am under the impression some of our wars rolls maybe getting a make over as well, has anyone else come to this conclusion as well?

 

[Imperial]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Welp back to waiting for the next battletome. Unless the allegiance changes are ridiculous then IJ are still hellishly overcosted.

*Shaman mode on* 2020... summer... golden boyz vs our brave boyz*shaman mode off*

[Scurvydog]

So we got an entire new spell lore, I guess that is the balance factor for weirdnobs now. The most interesting spell and probably chosen most of the time from now on will be the great hand of gork to deep strike our units, casting value 7 while close to IJ units will then be 5 or 6 most likely. 

Bash em lads for reroll to wound buff is also alright and Power of the Whaagh is probably the new go to spell for the weirdfist, as it deals out d3 mortal wounds to an enemy unit with 24" for each ironjaw unit within 18" of the caster that you roll a 3+ for and on a 6+ it is d6 mortal wounds. This has a lot of synergy with the weirdfist.

Mighty destroyers is now a command ability for all IJ heroes, 12" normal 18" for general, works about the same as the old dice roll, but if a unit gets this within 3" of an enemy it can not only pile in but also attack in the hero phase! Banking CP for this can be devastating with double moves, hero phase charges etc. In some cases I can see it worth using 1 CP to charge in the hero phase if you are close enough and another CP to attack right away.

Both super battalions are both cheaper and better. Ironsunz is the same both the Krusha now counts as having slain d3 heroes instead of 1. Bloodtoofs is also mostly the same, but most importantly all IJ units counts as 2 units when the MK uses mighty whaagh, which means you only need 2 units close to him for max effect!

Liking this along with points reductions which opens up some new 2k builds as well.

Only change to traits is a sad one though, ironclad is now reroll saves of 1 instead of reducing rend.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Scurvydog

[Thenord]

17 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

So we got an entire new spell lore, I guess that is the balance factor for weirdnobs now. The most interesting spell and probably chosen most of the time from now on will be the great hand of gork to deep strike our units, casting value 7 while close to IJ units will then be 5 or 6 most likely. 

Bash em lads for reroll to wound buff is also alright and Power of the Whaagh is probably the new go to spell for the weirdfist, as it deals out d3 mortal wounds to an enemy unit with 24" for each ironjaw unit within 18" of the caster that you roll a 3+ for and on a 6+ it is d6 mortal wounds. This has a lot of synergy with the weirdfist.

Mighty destroyers is now a command ability for all IJ heroes, 12" normal 18" for general, works about the same as the old dice roll, but if a unit gets this within 3" of an enemy it can not only pile in but also attack in the hero phase! Banking CP for this can be devastating with double moves, hero phase charges etc. In some cases I can see it worth using 1 CP to charge in the hero phase if you are close enough and another CP to attack right away.

Both super battalions are both cheaper and better. Ironsunz is the same both the Krusha now counts as having slain d3 heroes instead of 1. Bloodtoofs is also mostly the same, but most importantly all IJ units counts as 2 units when the MK uses mighty whaagh, which means you only need 2 units close to him for max effect!

Liking this along with points reductions which opens up some new 2k builds as well.

Only change to traits is a sad one though, ironclad is now reroll saves of 1 instead of reducing rend.

Got a link for this?

[Malakree]

22 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Power of the Whaagh is probably the new go to spell for the weirdfist, as it deals out d3 mortal wounds to an enemy unit with 24" for each ironjaw unit within 18" of the caster that you roll a 3+ for and on a 6+ it is d6 mortal wounds. This has a lot of synergy with the weirdfist.

Unless it's errata'd weirdfist explicitly states it's arcane bolt, green puke and foot of Gork.

22 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Mighty destroyers is now a command ability for all IJ heroes, 12" normal 18" for general, works about the same as the old dice roll, but if a unit gets this within 3" of an enemy it can not only pile in but also attack in the hero phase! Banking CP for this can be devastating with double moves, hero phase charges etc. In some cases I can see it worth using 1 CP to charge in the hero phase if you are close enough and another CP to attack right away.

Does it say a unit can only be targeted once per phase? I can see this making brutefist more viable. Sad if bloodtoofs still requires ironfist though.

You know where I was saying about how I break things? And they nerf them. This is now the most broken list in the entire game.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
- Trait: Live to Fight 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (140)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (140)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (140)

Total: 960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 20
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 80

Hand of Gork the cabbage.

Mighty destroyers to charge, mighty destroyers to activate until everything is dead, then mighty destroyers to charge again...

An average of 29 activations in the hero phase

Edit: ****** it, remove the weirdnob for another 3 cps that should get you across the board with 36" move and generates another 2 by aetherquartz broach.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Malakree

[Imperial]

 

 

[Imperial]

I DONT SEE ANY PENALTY FOR USING SPELLS WITH ALLY! 

[Imperial]

For example "Each IDONETH DEEPKINWIZARD in an IDONETH DEEPKIN army knows an additional spell chosen from the Lore of the Deeps"

[Malakree]

11 minutes ago, Imperial said:

 

 

For a brief moment I did wonder if they had retarded it. Got another list to rock it though.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (420)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
20 x Orruk Brutes (680)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (170)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Battalion
Brute Fist (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1920 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122

Cogs, hand of Gork, move cabbage with CA (+6), brutefist charge (+3 with rr), CA to pile in and attack with 20 brutes.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Malakree

[Imperial]

And i dont see any penalty for deepstrike with spell and after use new command ability! Wow!