AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Mascule]

On 5/24/2019 at 12:47 AM, Lanoss said:

So with GHB19 around the corner

What changes (if any) for Ironjawz do we hope to see?

Point changes? Different artefacts or traits? Developed allegiance abilities? 

Lets get some wishlisting happening 😁

-Weirdnob Shaman ( add 1 cast and unbind so it gets 2 spells)

-Maw-Krusha ( add 1 rend on every profile, waagh just adds attack no check, but on a 6 it adds 2 atk)

-Megaboss on foot ( add 1 rend to every profiles, waagh just adds attack no check, but on a 6 it adds 2 atk)

-Ardboys (gives the 6+ save to every model if u have 5 shield in the unit)

-gore-gruntas ( no need the 8 inch charge for added dmg on the hoofs, just make the charge)

-Brutes ( bring 1  dmg from brutes without big weapon to 2 dmg and gives a way to add some bravery)

-Warchanter (All gud they are awesome and cost nothing)

 

[novakai]

i don't really expect warscroll changes from the GHB

for Point changes, I hope for a general decrease in points for every Ironjawz unit 

Brutes: 130

Goregruntas: 120

Ardboyz: 140

Mawkrusha: 340

Gordrak: 400

the extra thing they can add in a GHB would be a Spell Lore, Pray's list, Mount traits would all be helpful too.

that said they probably wrote the GHB already and it already being printed out somewhere

[Rock Lobster]

2 minutes ago, novakai said:

i don't really expect warscroll changes from the GHB

for Point changes, I hope for a general decrease in points for every Ironjawz unit 

Brutes: 130

Goregruntas: 120

Ardboyz: 140

Mawkrusha: 340

Gordrak: 400

the extra thing they can add in a GHB would be a Spell Lore, Pray's list, Mount traits would all be helpful too.

that said they probably wrote the GHB already and it already being printed out somewhere

One can only hope, he points drops are desperately needed, but Games Workshop is rarely this drastic in helping out sub optimal factions. My expectation is 10-20 points here and there and another period of pain until the new book comes out, probably around Christmas as Ironjawz are a popular army in need of a refresh and it is a great time to make some money.

[novakai]

39 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

One can only hope, he points drops are desperately needed, but Games Workshop is rarely this drastic in helping out sub optimal factions. My expectation is 10-20 points here and there and another period of pain until the new book comes out, probably around Christmas as Ironjawz are a popular army in need of a refresh and it is a great time to make some money.

2

2

yeah, I was a bit drastic on some point changes like Gordrak, I don't really expect much changes from this GHB and probably hope for more stuff in a new Battletome. Since Ironjawz are like the posterboyz of Destruction and that they have the second oldest tome now, I hope the long wait means that they are getting a bigger release then some of the other armies have gotten in AoS 2.0.

Honestly, I hope they put effort into Ironjawz (keep them as their own thing) and not merge them with Bonesplitterz as others have been wanting. I would be a bit more dissapointed if that happens.

Edited May 30, 2019 by novakai

[DestructionFranz]

On 5/24/2019 at 6:47 AM, Lanoss said:

So with GHB19 around the corner

What changes (if any) for Ironjawz do we hope to see?

Point changes? Different artefacts or traits? Developed allegiance abilities? 

Lets get some wishlisting happening 😁

Some sceneries, new models and point reduction to finally use the marvelous Gordrak the Fist of Gork! 

[DestructionFranz]

52 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

One can only hope, he points drops are desperately needed, but Games Workshop is rarely this drastic in helping out sub optimal factions. My expectation is 10-20 points here and there and another period of pain until the new book comes out, probably around Christmas as Ironjawz are a popular army in need of a refresh and it is a great time to make some money.

Ironjawz are one of the best looking army, people still loving it even if at the moment is one of the less competitive. 

I think they deserve the best from GW. 

I'm waiting for a new golden era for Ironjawz and all Destruction armies as well. 

Let's cross our fingers. 🙂

[Rock Lobster]

Just now, DestructionFranz said:

Ironjawz are one of the best looking army, people still loving it even if at the moment is one of the less competitive. 

I think they deserve the best from GW. 

I'm waiting for a new golden era for Ironjawz and all Destruction armies as well. 

Let's cross our fingers. 🙂

The thing that I like is the ironjawz community is really solid, they love the army and have put up with a horrendous task and meta and fought through it still. It doesn't have to be a game breaking book, it just needs to give us a fighting chance against the top armies and people will be super happy. The big thing for me is make it flexible, options for building different types of lists and ways of playing - it will make them so much more fun. To do this they are going to need to drop some points and more importantly loosen some of the mechanics such as the waaagh which requires lots of small units and all within a bubble. If you didn't have to roll for it, how much more fun would your games be if your units could go anywhere and you change between big units and small units or a mix of both, using allies etc without being punished by the mechanics of the army.

[Gibs]

8 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

The thing that I like is the ironjawz community is really solid, they love the army and have put up with a horrendous task and meta and fought through it still. It doesn't have to be a game breaking book, it just needs to give us a fighting chance against the top armies and people will be super happy. The big thing for me is make it flexible, options for building different types of lists and ways of playing - it will make them so much more fun. To do this they are going to need to drop some points and more importantly loosen some of the mechanics such as the waaagh which requires lots of small units and all within a bubble. If you didn't have to roll for it, how much more fun would your games be if your units could go anywhere and you change between big units and small units or a mix of both, using allies etc without being punished by the mechanics of the army.

The mechanics of the Waagh combined with the fact the army is very limited in models makes it a very challenging army to collect and enjoy IMO. The models Ironjawz do have are stunning but it does not take long for the repetitiveness of the army to kick in. Even playing against the army gets boring as not only are the units over costed (basically need 15% more points to make it a game) they follow the exact same game plan pretty much every game.

Unless they add a whole new range of Ironjawz models they really need to have a play around with the armies mechanics so you don't feel so restricted playing with or against the army. Its cool that these guys are the elite 'Orc' army and I hope they keep that theme, they just need to make the rules that define the army more flexible.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Gibs

[Andrew G]

What I think will happen with this next GHB:

two or three 10 to 20 point drops. Probably the MK, Big G, and a few battalions. 

What I think should happen:

probably worth prefacing that I'm looking to make as small a change as possible, I'm anticipating a new book, and I'm assuming the best armies/units get brought down a bit.

 Goregruntas changed to "hooves do d3 damage on 8+ charge rolls"

'ardboyz: drop to 150/400

Footboss: passive battleshock immunity within 12" for Brute units.

Brutes: 160

MK: 400

Big G: 440

Weirdnob: 80 points (he would seriously have to be cheaper than a fungoid for me to consider taking him at this point). Alternatively, my fun answer would be "If the Weirdnob casts a spell, he gets a free attempt  casting foot of gork." 

All battalions drop 20 points

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 This is me being conservative as well, in totality we're looking at maybe an extra battleline unit in point drops, useable brutes, and GGs that are still inferior to most heavy cavalry in the game even after the change. Hardly going to shock the top tier armies, and it would actually allow us to decently compete and even win 5 game tournaments until the book drops. 

 

[Superninja]

Spoiler

Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies

Battleline

Units
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 320 / 400
Wounds: 159

@Andrew G

Ran the list for a 3rd time now, beating stormcast again. 3 wins/0 losses so far. This time he had 3 ballista and a hellstorm battery.   Focal points was the battleplan, Hysh was the realm, -1 bravery for order units was the realmscape feature.

He decided to go first (which hurt him I think) and dropped a comet on me.  He then shot a unit of goregruntas and a unit of ardboys up pretty bad.  2 out of 3 goregruntas died and 6 of 10 ardboys.  He dropped 2 units of sequitors in front of me, 1 of which took the center objective.  I used a command point to keep the ardboys from rolling battleshock.  He started with the ballistas on the map, not close enough for multishots.

I then moved up with everything and waagh'd 2 times from the warboss on warboar.  This affected my left side, which was 2 units of ardboys (1 of which had 4 models left) and 2 units of goregruntas (1 of which had 1 model left).  I charged with the left side, into the sequitors.  They wiped the sequitors before they could attack back.  We called it after this because I would be able to hold the objectives without him being able to take them back very easily, though he would be able to shoot me up pretty good.

His setup was off in my opinion. This led to my win. 

This is the first IJ list that I have ever felt I may need to tone down for a friendly game.  Usually I am thinking that I am behind the curve, trying to figure out what I could possibly do to win.  Starting at 1900 points is clutch.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Superninja

[Andrew G]

On 5/31/2019 at 5:25 AM, Superninja said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies

Battleline

Units
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
- 5x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 5x Big Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 320 / 400
Wounds: 159

His setup was off in my opinion. This led to my win. 

This is the first IJ list that I have ever felt I may need to tone down for a friendly game.  Usually I am thinking that I am behind the curve, trying to figure out what I could possibly do to win.  Starting at 1900 points is clutch.

Good to hear about your continued success.  Definitely tone it down a bit for friendly games, having your entire army smash n' bashed through because you made a few deployment mistakes definitely doesn't feel good. I had to stop playing my Gorefist for pick-up games, even against experience opponents who were just unfamiliar with the list  just because the game basically boiled down to "Did my opponent make a deployment error?" If YES - IJ win 1st/2nd turn, if NO - we could actually start playing the game. Which ultimately isn't very fun for casual players or opponents with little experience against the army.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Andrew G

[Superninja]

That has basically been the issue, there is no middle ground. It is either I get stomped or do the stomping.  

[Superninja]

Saw a post on facebook supposedly from the General's Handbook about point drops.  Obviously, not sure how true it is, but here is what I saw:

                              Current points> New points

Orruk Ardboys: 160/450>140/360

Orruk Brutes:     180>160

Ardfist:                   170>140

Brutefist:               180>120

Gorefist:                 190>140

Weirdfist:              180>120

 

Fungoid:                   90>110

[Thenord]

Yeah, if this is true. My army is gonna stay in the cabbin until a new tome comes...

[Skabnoze]

On 5/30/2019 at 1:02 PM, Rock Lobster said:

The thing that I like is the ironjawz community is really solid, they love the army and have put up with a horrendous task and meta and fought through it still. It doesn't have to be a game breaking book, it just needs to give us a fighting chance against the top armies and people will be super happy. 

To be fair, you could pretty much apply this to Orcs & Goblins for just about any edition of Warhammer.  That does not mean it should always be this way, but historically it has been to a fair degree.  Orcs & Goblins (of all types) has generally been an army you play primarily because you really like the theme and models of the army and less because it is objectively good on the table.

Hopefully Ironjawz version 2.0 changes this.

[novakai]

47 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

To be fair, you could pretty much apply this to Orcs & Goblins for just about any edition of Warhammer.  That does not mean it should always be this way, but historically it has been to a fair degree.  Orcs & Goblins (of all types) has generally been an army you play primarily because you really like the theme and models of the army and less because it is objectively good on the table.

Hopefully Ironjawz version 2.0 changes this.

I do have hope that things are finally changing with how GW gave Orks a strong Codex in 8th editions (considering how bad their previous ones where in the past)

[VonSmall]

11 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

To be fair, you could pretty much apply this to Orcs & Goblins for just about any edition of Warhammer.  That does not mean it should always be this way, but historically it has been to a fair degree.  Orcs & Goblins (of all types) has generally been an army you play primarily because you really like the theme and models of the army and less because it is objectively good on the table.

Hopefully Ironjawz version 2.0 changes this.

There was a period in 8th edition where O&G were the hotness. Doom Diver, Spear Chukka spam. O&G gunline.

[broche]

On 6/5/2019 at 11:29 AM, Superninja said:

Saw a post on facebook supposedly from the General's Handbook about point drops.  Obviously, not sure how true it is, but here is what I saw:

                              Current points> New points

Orruk Ardboys: 160/450>140/360

Orruk Brutes:     180>160

Ardfist:                   170>140

Brutefist:               180>120

Gorefist:                 190>140

Weirdfist:              180>120

 

Fungoid:                   90>110

This would likely shuffle list a bit, but Ardboys at this cost is insanely cheap. But it's probably not everything.  Ironfist should drop in point as well otherwise would be unplayable . Weirdfist at 120 would  actually be very very good (especially if you can field 30 arboys for 360.  If gruntas were to remain at 140 they would become mostly worthless

[Banglesprout]

I'm kinda hoping there are almost no changes in the GHB for Ironjawz because I feel like the less changes there are, the sooner that means their new book is coming out 😛

[broche]

look like we will be getting expanded rule in GHB2019:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/09/coming-soon-the-generals-handbook-2019/

[novakai]

1 hour ago, broche said:

look like we will be getting expanded rule in GHB2019:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/06/09/coming-soon-the-generals-handbook-2019/

I hope there are some decent changes like in the artifacts, command traits and maybe add a spell list and not be a direct copy and paste from last year

[Skabnoze]

On 6/6/2019 at 1:59 AM, VonSmall said:

There was a period in 8th edition where O&G were the hotness. Doom Diver, Spear Chukka spam. O&G gunline.

Every army goes through highs and lows for the most part if you follow them long enough.  Orcs & Goblins certainly did have points where they were pretty effective, but I cannot recall a time in Warhammer Fantasy from 4th to 8th where they were ever sitting on the top of the competitive pack.  Even in 8th, when they had some very good units and builds they were not the top tier force.  And Orcs & Goblins arguably were in middle of the pack or a bit lower in terms of competitiveness for most of those years - mainly due to being built around a high degree of randomness.  The army was never able to get out of the shackles of the Animosity rules until Age of Sigmar came along.

 

On 6/5/2019 at 3:15 PM, novakai said:

I do have hope that things are finally changing with how GW gave Orks a strong Codex in 8th editions (considering how bad their previous ones where in the past)

I agree.  GW has shown that they want to keep a lot of the old themes of Orcs but are willing to move them away from some of the old mechanics that always held them back - such as animosity.  So that is a good sign to me for future iterations of both Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz.  Both of those armies are heavily influenced by, and expand upon, the old themes of Black Orcs & Savage Orcs but they also both tossed away animosity and removed much of the old randomness with just a bit remaining in some of the magic.  Goblins, especially night goblins, were where most of the truly weird and random shenanigans traditionally were in the Orc & Goblin army and it seems that GW has decided to continue that trend in Gloomspite.  So it seems that they may finally be willing to let Orcs concentrate on their more brutal nature and let goblins fully take over the comedic side of things.

[Imperial]

13 minutes ago, novakai said:

I hope there are some decent changes like in the artifacts, command traits and maybe add a spell list and not be a direct copy and paste from last year

They will give new endless spell: deal 100 mortal wounds to any units w/o new battletome wholly within 72"  I dont think what we will see anything to fix ironjawz before battletome.

[ShaneHobbes]

I'd like Mighty Destroyers to do more for how lackluster it is and how rare it actually goes off

[Skabnoze]

8 minutes ago, novakai said:

I hope there are some decent changes like in the artifacts, command traits and maybe add a spell list and not be a direct copy and paste from last year

It sounds like that is the case:

Quote

This year’s General’s Handbook also contains allegiance abilities for several factions, with expanded rules for Ironjawz, Seraphon, Wanderers, Darkling Covens, Free Peoples, Slaves to Darkness and Dispossessed. If you’re looking to make the most of these forces in your games, the book is a must-have.

They specifically called out those forces as having expanded rules.  I would imagine this is more than a simple reprint.  My suspicion is that these factions are not going to be the ones getting a new Army Book this year and the GHB is going to be used to prop them up for a bit longer.  These are probably going to be the existing allegiances that will be addressed last (for whatever reason).  It seems pretty likely that the next destruction book is going to either be Bonesplitterz or Ogres.  A couple months ago the manager at my local GW told me that he was instructed to return all copies of the Bonesplitterz book back to GW HQ.  I doubt they would be pulling physical copies from their retailers unless they were getting ready for a reprint.  That would make sense to me because it seems like Ironjawz are on the whole in a better place than Bonesplitterz.  Bonesplitterz have problems that can likely only be solved by rewriting warscrolls but Ironjawz feel like they can make a lot of mileage simply through expanding allegiance abilities, spell lores, artifacts, point costs, general traits, etc in the GHB.

I would not be surprised if GW identified these books to be last in the rewrite order because they feel they want to incorporate a model release.  The books that were not named may possibly be coming sooner because GW feels that they can handle them with just a small book + terrain + spells release.