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Chris Tomlin

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@Andrew G

I'm sure originally the reason to have all MSU was to fit in the 3 allied fungoid.  But can you talk about the decision to run the 4 units of ardboys and the 4 units of goregruntas?  It is usually recommended to run larger units for many reasons like warchanter buffs, spells buffs, actitvation, etc.  But I have often found myself wanting to run MSU, not only for waaagh purposes, but even for ease of setup, the ability to move in different directions, and even have some take an objective while others do other stuff. 

What was your reasoning?  How did it feel?

Also no brutes, makes me sad, they are so cool looking.

Edited by Superninja
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MSU cover more board and ensure you have more unit surviving into round 3-4 and still waaagh.  When you +4 attack 10 ardboys / 3 gruntas will kill most stuff. And you still have the krusha for Heavy Duty.

Problem with Brutes (and i've come to like them over time) in this kind of list is their move. Without either Ironfist/Cog, it can be hard to get them in combat...

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22 hours ago, Superninja said:

@Andrew G

I'm sure originally the reason to have all MSU was to fit in the 3 allied fungoid.  But can you talk about the decision to run the 4 units of ardboys and the 4 units of goregruntas?  It is usually recommended to run larger units for many reasons like warchanter buffs, spells buffs, actitvation, etc.  But I have often found myself wanting to run MSU, not only for waaagh purposes, but even for ease of setup, the ability to move in different directions, and even have some take an objective while others do other stuff. 

What was your reasoning?  How did it feel?

Also no brutes, makes me sad, they are so cool looking.

 

12 hours ago, broche said:

MSU cover more board and ensure you have more unit surviving into round 3-4 and still waaagh.  When you +4 attack 10 ardboys / 3 gruntas will kill most stuff. And you still have the krusha for Heavy Duty.

Problem with Brutes (and i've come to like them over time) in this kind of list is their move. Without either Ironfist/Cog, it can be hard to get them in combat...

You already pretty much nailed it Superninja. I go MSU because of easier Waaagh! and the flexibility having more units offers you. The MK is already a pretty good buff sponge, but there's definitely a draw-back when it comes to activation and triggering smashing and bashing.  

That said, losing 3 or 4 units or having  several units outside the MK's Waaagh range is no longer is crippling to the army. I can sacrifice a few 'ardboyz units as screens or use them to sit on vital deployment zone objectives w/o compromising the punch on my Waaaagh dump turn. I think there could be an argument for going with a 20'ardboyz unit, but I didn't want to change too much going into a tourney. 

No Brutes no based on 1 thing, they're going to have a giant "Snipe me" sign painted on their back. The MK is usually a trap for opponents sniping with Ignax Scales and Ironclad. Very rarely is your opponent going to get their points worth shooting at him, and you have the Warchanter to buff the MK if he does suffer a few wounds and has his attack profile degrades. The goregruntas/'ardboyz are horrible targets for most sniping, the fungoids are also very durable for their cost, there's really nothing in the army that's a great target for enemy ranged weapons.

As soon as you add Brutes to the list your opponent has a nice expensive target that only needs to suffer 3 wounds before they're in danger of battleshock. You're going to end up babysitting them and spending CP and/or artifact slots to keep them on the board, both of which are extremely valuable to IJ. 

Edited by Andrew G
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I like the MSU list and can understand not liking the foot boss. If your already dropping a fungoid for 2CP then maybe drop one gore grunta unit for a allied banner boss. This would give the list a second source of waagh for when the MK dies or too few units left to make it reliable plus the banner re roll is always useful. 

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however droping 1 unit i think I would rather have the Megaboss than Warboss, as Megaboss have board holding power and count toward IJ unit (problem always is his speed)

for Brutes lover (or those who disgust painting more ardboys), this  could work. I'm not too afraid anymore of battleshock with  pack of 5 Brutes, i've come to accept the variance.  

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
- Trait: Ironclad 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 143
 

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Congrats on the great result @Andrew G! Couple of questions, if you don't mind, around deployment of the army from a learning perspective.

1. Apart from the one unit who might get the free move at the start, how do you play T1 when your opponent gives it to you with this list as there is little chance of you actually causing damage to anything (apart from that one unit you may throw forward opportunistically). With so many units it's likely that you will not get the choice of first/second turn so what does the deployment look like?

2. How would you deploy to counter armies that can 30+" rush you with fliers from the first turn to ensure you still have enough staying power to hit back come your turn?

Thanks for the comments!

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4 hours ago, broche said:

however droping 1 unit i think I would rather have the Megaboss than Warboss, as Megaboss have board holding power and count toward IJ unit (problem always is his speed)

for Brutes lover (or those who disgust painting more ardboys), this  could work. I'm not too afraid anymore of battleshock with  pack of 5 Brutes, i've come to accept the variance.  

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
- Trait: Ironclad 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 143
 

This actually has potential, 143 wounds in a list using 3 Brutes is really solid. You should have enough GGs/'ardboyz to bubblewrap the MK against deepstriking hammers. The brutes in round 2 or 3 are going to absolute wreck whatever they touch, and you have enough of them they really can't focus fire them down before they have a real impact. 

I'll probably try something like this soon. I love Brutes as well, but they're overcosted IMO and I always operated under the assumption you had to run them in a battalion for speed/durability(durability from Battleshock immunity/bravery items). I also think our battalions are overcosted, so paying a double premium just to run Brutes just wasn't appealing... maybe I'll change my mind with this list. 

Edited by Andrew G
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2 hours ago, VonSmall said:

Congrats on the great result @Andrew G! Couple of questions, if you don't mind, around deployment of the army from a learning perspective.

1. Apart from the one unit who might get the free move at the start, how do you play T1 when your opponent gives it to you with this list as there is little chance of you actually causing damage to anything (apart from that one unit you may throw forward opportunistically). With so many units it's likely that you will not get the choice of first/second turn so what does the deployment look like?

2. How would you deploy to counter armies that can 30+" rush you with fliers from the first turn to ensure you still have enough staying power to hit back come your turn?

Thanks for the comments!

 It's really matchup/scenario dependent so I'll go over deployments against some typical army archetypes. 

Really fast combat armies(Slaneesh, Idoneth, FEC, Stormcast Deepstrike, BoC w/ Enlightened, DoK,etc.):

You're lining 'ardboyz in front, GGs behind them (keep them within 3"inch of the front of the 'ardboyz), Krusher somewhere behind that. You'll have some extra 'ardboyz to bubblewrap MK from deepstrike as you advance up the board. First turn is taking up board real estate and daring them to charge your 'ardboyz, once they commit (if they don't commit you'll just win on objectives most likely) you just pop all your Waaaghs and table them. Honestly, these types of armies are the easiest matchup.  Your 'ardboyz screens are tough enough they have to use an actual hammer to clear them, and once they commit a hammer against your screen you've basically won. 

Horde Armies w/ Magic Support (Sacrament, Skaven, Gloomspite, etc.):

Generally a much tougher matchup for IJ. They're usually running tons of screening units, they have hordes you can't smash and bash through, most have insane recycling mechanics, if you're fighting over an objective they put the pressure on you to commit CP to Waaagh (usually when you don't want to) because they have the bodies to take objective priority even if it's a stalemate combat,  and they have magic sniping to put pressure on the MK (mitigated by Ignax Scales, but still puts you on a clock). 

There's a lot subtlety to these matchups, it usually involves sending out as little of your army as possible to clear screens, getting them to commit to killing those screens with their hordes and hammers, and praying you have enough CP in the bank to pop those hordes without exposing the MK and the rest of the army.  The problem here is it's on the IJ player to make a move in this match-up, they'll have board control, but if you try to rush the whole army into them you'll be the one tied up on screening units/tough hordes and probably lose. 

The deployment is going to look similar, but with GGs in front so they can charge early to clear screens, and the 'ardboyz behind that to support the MK. 

 

30' flying alpha-strikes: 

You're playing this exactly like you would play against any other fast combat army, but you have to make sure there's not enough space for them to hop your 'ardboyz and GGs and hit the Mawkrusher. If your mawkrusher is alive, and you still have at least 5 other IJ units on the board you'll most likely win. You'll have 4 CP on your T1 on average, more than enough to kill whatever jumped across the board at you. The key is just forcing them to hit as few units as possible. Ideally, you'll only lose 2 'ardboyz units w/ perfect screening, if you ****** up(like I did against Idoneth in my tourney this weekend) he'll probably only kill 3 or 4 units total. The beauty of these tanky  MSU lists is you can lose 3 or 4 units and still be in a good spot,  you lose 3 or 4 units on T1 with a typical Bloodtoofs or Ironfist it's game over. 

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Thanks for the great reply @Andrew G!

I used to push Brets around in 8th Ed so I know all about running a sub-optimal army and having to think incredibly tactically about it...it does make winning those tough games and getting podiums oh so satisfying though!

Is the thought process behind keeping the GG within 3” behind the Aard boy screen so that they can pile in and fight when the Aard boy’s are charged? 

Vs the 30” flyers I imagine you would deploy a little further back to ensure they could t get behind you. Looking at lists like the triple thirsters who jump forward, they would probably see off the best part of an aard boy unit each. Would you then consider waaagh and countering with Pigs and the Krusha as that constitutes the majority of the army?

Sorry to bombard with questions, but what are your thoughts on Archaon & Morathi matchups? 

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15 hours ago, Andrew G said:

I love Brutes as well, but they're overcosted IMO and I always operated under the assumption you had to run them in a battalion for speed/durability(durability from Battleshock immunity/bravery items)

Yeah, they are slightly overcosted but mostly because of their move really. I rate the Brutes Boss at 50 pts. For battleshock, my usual algorithm is:

Brutes lost:  Outcome

1: Don't Care

2: Don't Care

3: Consider spending a CP

4: Consider spending a CP

really, for same cost, give them +1 bravery and the +2 charges from ardboys, it would be fine. For now i'm willing to afford the 60pts cog, especially considering fungoid is so cheap :) 

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Thanks for the report and commentary @Andrew G, been really cool to hear that it's doing well!

I also really like the alternate list from @broche which includes brutes, if only because I like the greater diversity of units, and brutes arrive such cool models.

You answers on how you fight other combat armies sounds great but I have one question.. hope do you fight the "always strike first" FEC dragons? I was kinda thinking that Mirrored Cuirass was the only way, but it's seems neither of you are taking it, so what's your plan??

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5 hours ago, Banglesprout said:

Oh and also what're you guys doing with your Fungoids other than generating command points? Are they good for anything else?

Glare, itchy, moon are all great spells in addition to the default ones.

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22 hours ago, Banglesprout said:

Thanks for the report and commentary @Andrew G, been really cool to hear that it's doing well!

I also really like the alternate list from @broche which includes brutes, if only because I like the greater diversity of units, and brutes arrive such cool models.

You answers on how you fight other combat armies sounds great but I have one question.. hope do you fight the "always strike first" FEC dragons? I was kinda thinking that Mirrored Cuirass was the only way, but it's seems neither of you are taking it, so what's your plan??

 

22 hours ago, Banglesprout said:

Oh and also what're you guys doing with your Fungoids other than generating command points? Are they good for anything else?

I run Ignax Scales on the MK which is pretty much Cuirass. I don't think the reflect is going to have much of an impact.


Against FEC you need to deploy the screen 'ardboyz so the GGs behind it is 4" back to guard against double activation, and never send the MK into the Gristlegore general. Focus on the rest of his monsters and heroes with the MK. That's all you can really do for the most part, it's the FEC player's game to lose. Super powerful combat heroes that mess with combat activation order is not a recipe for IJ success. I'm not looking forward to playing against Slaneesh once the local guys get some more games under their belt either... 

For Fungoids, I usually use them to deny areas of the board from deepstrike, capture my own deployment zone objectives, cast mystic shield on the MK, utilize realm spells,  and their signature spell is actually decent later in the game. Being able to generate 5CP over the course of 5 turns for 180 points is the main reason you're taking them though, absolutely.

Going down to 2 fungoids was the right choice though, front-loading some CP to guard against alphastrike + securing triumph was extremely valuable.

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On 5/13/2019 at 8:07 PM, VonSmall said:

Thanks for the great reply @Andrew G!

I used to push Brets around in 8th Ed so I know all about running a sub-optimal army and having to think incredibly tactically about it...it does make winning those tough games and getting podiums oh so satisfying though!

Is the thought process behind keeping the GG within 3” behind the Aard boy screen so that they can pile in and fight when the Aard boy’s are charged? 

Vs the 30” flyers I imagine you would deploy a little further back to ensure they could t get behind you. Looking at lists like the triple thirsters who jump forward, they would probably see off the best part of an aard boy unit each. Would you then consider waaagh and countering with Pigs and the Krusha as that constitutes the majority of the army?

Sorry to bombard with questions, but what are your thoughts on Archaon & Morathi matchups? 

I only played Orcs in 8th, and not much has changed in AoS :) 

Yes, you keep the GGs behind so they can activate. For example against Witchelves/plaguemonks with a bunch of 1" attack and occupy a lot of combat frontage, if you park GGS behind you can get some free damage after they blow up the screen. 

You don't want to do that if they can 1) double activate hammer units 2) concentrate a lot of damage over a small frontage (Read: FEC, Idoneth, even my old Gorefist). Otherwise, they'll multi-charge the screening unit and still get value piling into the unit that's behind within 4". 

I probably would lump the triple thrister list into the FEC,Idoneth category. You need to occupy board space, coax them into hitting 'ardboyz screens, and counterpunch w/ waaagh. 

Morathi you need to just keep feeding units, and use the MK and the rest of the army to deal with everything else. I've only played against Archaon a handful of times, but probably handle him in a similar fashion to Morathi, but with the upside that can actually kill him he's poorly positioned and you have enough CP going into that turn. 

Edited by Andrew G
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@Andrew G I love the idea of your MSU list. I don't play against skaven so I would like to the brooch. Because of that, I'm thinking of keeping only one Fungoïd and taking a Warboss to have a Waaagh backup and a wound reroll. I end up at 1950 points so I start with 1CP and triumph (maybe/probably).

Do you think it's enough CP generation ?

 

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18 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

@Andrew G I love the idea of your MSU list. I don't play against skaven so I would like to the brooch. Because of that, I'm thinking of keeping only one Fungoïd and taking a Warboss to have a Waaagh backup and a wound reroll. I end up at 1950 points so I start with 1CP and triumph (maybe/probably).

Do you think it's enough CP generation ?

 

I suppose the power of the Fungoids is that you are exponentially improving the attacks of your units using Waaagh. By having 1 rather than 2 Fungoids you have reduced you ability to used waaagh by an average of 1CP every 2 turns. This could prove especially costly early in the game if you haven't generated those extra CPs.

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6 hours ago, VonSmall said:

I suppose the power of the Fungoids is that you are exponentially improving the attacks of your units using Waaagh. By having 1 rather than 2 Fungoids you have reduced you ability to used waaagh by an average of 1CP every 2 turns. This could prove especially costly early in the game if you haven't generated those extra CPs.

I agree but I have the brooch to compensate... Do you think that's not enough ?

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@Andrew G

I just used the list last night and it worked out great.  Battleplan was Three Places of Power, Hysh was the realm, and versus stormcast.  I was forced to go first. I ran up board as far as I could, had one unit of GG's that got rampaging destroyers close enough to charge, but I opted not to charge after the roll.  He moved up a bit, shot me with 2 Ballistas(he missed), and cast a couple spells to take out my shamans, but they saved all but 1 mortal each.  I got the roll for the 2nd turn, so I took it.  Moved up some more with everything, used 5 Waaagh! (got +7 attacks) and ended up wiping out a set of 5 evocators,  a set of 30 skinks,  and 3 sets of 5 liberators before he got to activate them or anything.  He had his stardrake, the 2 ballistas, and another couple heros left...we called it after that.

I like the list. Was easy to use and easy to setup.  I may switch out one of the GG's for the warboss on warboar just for a second waagh source as mentioned above.  I felt if he had taken 4 ballistas that he could have taken out my mawkrusha.

For the ardboys, I did each unit with 5 big weapons and 5 shields.  Is that what you are using? Or are you using all 10 with big weapons?

It was nice not having to worry about battleshock just from using MSU .  Usually have to commit a 2nd artefact to that end.

Edited by Superninja
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So the new penumbral engine terrain just posted on the community site. It grants a command point to you if you have a hero nearby it. Looks like it can be taken as a terrain piece for any army, like a general piece instead of an army specific one (like the bad moon) 

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3 hours ago, Superninja said:

  Moved up some more with everything, used 5 Waaagh! (got +7 attacks) and ended up wiping out a set of 5 evocators,  a set of 30 skinks,  and 3 sets of 5 liberators before he got to activate them or anything.  He had his stardrake, the 2 ballistas, and another couple heros left...we called it after that.

How ? Only one unit or the Maw Krusha wipe them before they can fight back ?

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