AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Turbo_Otter]

Recently got back into Ironjawz after taking Nurgle for a spin and for starters, thank you to everyone who has contributed here. This thread is a goldmine. I'm gonna start practicing with a Bloodtoof list soon but I got curious about what typically goes in an Ironfist list and how it's playstyle differs from the massive alphastrike of the Bloodtoof build (someone mentioned the Ironfist list as one of Ironjawz better builds a page or two back).

Thanks again for all the inspiration!

Edited August 13, 2018 by Turbo_Otter

[DerZauberer]

2 hours ago, Turbo_Otter said:

but I got curious about what typically goes in an Ironfist list and how it's playstyle differs from the massive alphastrike of the Bloodtoof build (someone mentioned the Ironfist list as one of Ironjawz better builds a page or two back).

So i would assume you still max out the Ironfist, so you still want to have 5 units in the Ironfist.

Fairly typical right now is 10 ardboys, 2 x 3 Gore-Gruntas and 2 x 5 Brutes. That's 980 points. 

From there you can pretty much pick and mix.

Usually some kind of magic support, a Mawkrusha, Megaboss... It won't differ greatly from the Bloodtoofs list I think. You just get more wounds on the table by freeing up 120 from the Bloodtoofs and 60 from the Cogs.  I would skip Cogs on Ironfist, as you don't prime for alpha striking your opponent when playing a pure Ironfist army. I think a nice little spin on Ironfist lists is Gordrakk and a Orruk Warboss for + attacks with the Warboss, reroll-wounds-of-1 and the Gordrakk Command ability on the whole Ironfist. 

But in my opinion pure Ironfist is really "greyish" and doesn't have a real purpose in competitive play. I would either go Bloodtoofs with Cogs / Gordrakk-Gorefist and go all in alphastrike or i would play without battalions at all like some people did before AoS 2.0 and focus on wounds and map-presence. 360 points you pay for Bloodtoofs + Cogs are 30 more wounds of brutes for example.

I'm going to practice bloodtoofs myself for an event later this year as most of my babble here is theoretical yet, but i think bloodtoofs is a good list. I even think Gordrakkgorefist ist even better, but I don't own 12+ Gore-Gruntas and i dislike the playstyle. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by DerZauberer
Formatting

[broche]

Yeah, in fact I think only list I wouldn't bring to a non-tournament game would be Gorefist as it's NPE (most Alphastrike list are). With Ironfist/Bloodtooth you're more aiming at a Beta strike, which is probably weaker game wise, but also funnier to play. Personnaly i think the best overall list  is the weirdfist (both powerfull and fun to play)

[DerZauberer]

6 minutes ago, broche said:

Yeah, in fact I think only list I wouldn't bring to a non-tournament game would be Gorefist as it's NPE (most Alphastrike list are). With Ironfist/Bloodtooth you're more aiming at a Beta strike, which is probably weaker game wise, but also funnier to play. Personnaly i think the best overall list  is the weirdfist (both powerfull and fun to play)

Weirdfist is something I would like to practice, too. I'm not 100% sold on the Bloodtoofs yet.

Would you mind sharing your usual Weirdfist list? I was thinking of 30 Ardboys, 2 Weirdnobs, 1 MK and Brutes / Endless Spells or something like this.

[broche]

i was about to take that on friday against idoneth but my game got canceled. But i'm confident it's a good army

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Golden Toof 
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
Weirdfist (180)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 127

[brankignole]

I got questions about the weirdfist because i don't really see how it helps you win games. The bataillon seems really defensive and requires you to leave your others units quite close to the shaman to get the bonus. Most of the matched play scenarios are about moving to get objectives so i see the bataillon as a drag more than an advantage.

Moreover, the only real damaging spell is foot of gork and its problem is the randomness of the casting but the bataillon doesn't do anything for that. Green puke is random too (because of the range) so only arcane bolt is reliable but doens't win you games . Lastly, everything fall apart as soon as the shaman get killed.

I'd like you guys to open my eyes.

[broche]

1 minute ago, brankignole said:

I got questions about the weirdfist because i don't really see how it helps you win games. The bataillon seems really defensive and requires you to leave your others units quite close to the shaman to get the bonus. Most of the matched play scenarios are about moving to get objectives so i see the bataillon as a drag more than an advantage.

Moreover, the only real damaging spell is foot of gork and its problem is the randomness of the casting but the bataillon doesn't do anything for that. Green puke is random too (because of the range) so only arcane bolt is reliable but doens't win you games . Lastly, everything fall apart as soon as the shaman get killed.

I'd like you guys to open my eyes.

Well it's hard to access cause scenario will have much impact on your strategy (can you keep 20 orruk closed to where you deployed, do you need to cover more board ect.) . But by the end of turn 2 you can  in average you could have put 20-25 mortal wound just from magic in average.

Shaman is not that easy to kill it you screen him, he can have a 3+  save on vortex, a -1 to hit agains shoot and whatever item you put on him. If you're opponent want to kill he will have to open the play and thus will become vulnerable to a multiwaaagh combo. 

Puke is not that random when you add 24'' range in average to the 2d6 . Foot is random, but that often actually play in your favor. Not much player want to risk being stomped by 20 mortal, so they will usually try to handle you're wizard, which kinda play in your favor. Also, with the 30'' dispelling, it's probably more reliable than lots of spells anyway (once cast it will rarelly get dispeled)

So you're oppening play could look something like: 

R1: Roll for free move, and maybe reposition your weirfist's shaman. Cast balewind, and either bolt or foot. Throw geminid to their frontline with the 2nd shaman. Move conservatively to screen the shaman from melee and grab nearby objective. 

R2: Cast bolt / puke / foot/ gemenid /shield. Adapt your play, depending if your opponent played R1 aggressive or defensive. If they went aggressive you can try to triple waagh for the win. If they play defensive wait for the right opportunity to counter attack.

[novakai]

So the maximum amount of dice for weirdfist that you can use is 6 right? (5 unit + the Weirdnob), so on turn one i can average +18 range with another 6 on balewind and have about 42 inch cast range. 

also if Foot of Gork is successfully cast does the extra mortal wound only apply on the first instance of the foot's damage or does the extra damage stays every time you successfully recast it on a 4+?

[broche]

@novakai yes6 units at best (will often drop to 3-5 units mid game). Yes each time you roll a dice you add bonus. So foot is around 13 mortal average when it goes off. 

[Superninja]

I finally tried the Weirdfist battalion recently and it didn't go very well.    It was on escalation, which I am really not liking...

I set up poorly in hindsight.

I failed casting Foot of Gork both turns.  (called it after that cause i was getting trounced)

I found it difficult, like a post above talks about.  Our troops want to charge in,  but with the weirdfist you want them to stay with the shaman.  If you are keeping them near the shaman( or the shaman with them), it can be difficult to have enough other units to take multiple objectives. 

I want to try it again for sure.

[Malakree]

11 hours ago, Turbo_Otter said:

Recently got back into Ironjawz after taking Nurgle for a spin and for starters, thank you to everyone who has contributed here. This thread is a goldmine. I'm gonna start practicing with a Bloodtoof list soon but I got curious about what typically goes in an Ironfist list and how it's playstyle differs from the massive alphastrike of the Bloodtoof build (someone mentioned the Ironfist list as one of Ironjawz better builds a page or two back).

Thanks again for all the inspiration!

So I just want to add here. @DerZauberer is "correct" in that everything he has said after his initial assumption is true based on that assumption.

The true power of a standard Ironfist, as opposed to a Mega-battalion of either variety, is that you don't need to max out the battalion. This, combined with the 120 points spare from the Mega-Bat and the fact the MK is no longer required, makes a standard Ironfist infinitely more flexible than a Mega-Battalion list.

To illustrate this point here are two lists which hit the absolute minimum requirements to be legal at 2k.

Spoiler

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)

Total: 680 / 2000
 

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 1440 / 2000

The second list reserves nearly 3/4 of your points in Mandatory selections while the first leaves you nearly 3/4 Spare

Given how expensive Ironjawz units are, across the board, the flexibility and lack of restrictions (two separate things) allows you to have a much more personalised list. As an example try building a Bloodtoof's list with 30 Ardboys in it, having done so it's incredibly tight on the points and essentially mandates what list I'm running. With only a basic Ironfist I can comfortably fit two units of 30 in and still have points to throw around. Additionally, as @DerZauberer pointed out, you are just putting more models and wounds on the board, this is not something to overlook.

If you are going up to the full 5 stack Ironfist at that point, in my opinion, you are better off swaping into either a Mega-Battalion or a weirdfist. 120 points to get +2 bravery across the board is a god send, that's before you add in the third artefact or free CP. 

Another great point to bring up is the one which @Backbreaker asked about a few pages back, that being any list which doesn't use a Cabbage. In that case it was a question about using Gordrakk with an Ironfist, something which we fall 20 points short of doing in a Mega-Battalion. The Big G is actually one of the best reasons you would take an Ironfist without taking Bloodtoofs or Ironsunz, the Weirdfist just doesn't fit with him.

Conclusion

In a lot of ways Bloodtoofs is the modern incarnation of our old Ironfist lists however in reality it's actually a small sub-set of the broader Ironfist lists which work for all the same reasons. 

If you are considering which of the two to use it really comes down to asking yourself how drastically your Ironfist list will change to become a Bloodtoofs. If it's just "I have 1 shaman instead of 2" grab the Bloodtoofs, on the other hand if it requires you to add in two whole new units and drop a bunch of stuff then those are actually two different lists that will play very differently. In that regard play with both and see what you prefer.

To give you an idea, this is the list I was using prior to AoS2, against the one I'm using now, to show how some lists don't transfer straight over. One thing I would say in particular is notice the huge difference in how many wounds/models I'm putting on the table.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)
- Allies

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Units
20 x Gitmob Grots (100)
- Bows & Slashas
- Allies

Battalions
Ironfist (180)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 180 / 400
Wounds: 175

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 118

 

[DerZauberer]

You don't need to max out the Ironfist, but if you take one, you want to, don't you?

Basically, you pay 180 points for an extra run move, 2 extra wounds, a command point, an artefact and lesser drops (which gets less effective if you have several other units outside of battalions). So the 'real' bonus is distributed on 3-5 units. That's 36 points per unit (5 units) or 50 points (3 units) per unit to get the bonus random(!) movement.

As you've correctly said @Malakree, the Ironfist is far more flexible then other Ironjawz builds but also less effective with 5 units in it then other Ironjawzs builds. So, is it really worth its points when you run less than 5 units in it? Why not skip the Ironfist as a whole and be 100% flexible instead of remaining in the "greys"?

In AoS 1.0 I was not a big fan of the Ironfist at all. You had an Alpha-Strike Build with the Gorefist and a non-Alpha-Strike Build as Ironjawz. So why bother having ~3,5" movement on some units when you can have more wounds on the table to achieve board control when alpha striking is not your goal?

While AoS 2.0 made Battalions far more interesting for us (due to the command point system and wide array of new artifacts) we still strife for two possible strategies. Alpha-Striking and Non-Alpha-Striking. We got a new shiny list with Bloodtoofs as a new Alpha-Strike-Build. But the same argument is valid for non-alpha-striking armies: why investing 180 points for less than 5 units extra 3,5" movement when you can get 15 wounds of brutes.

I really agree with most points you've said @Malakree, especially with the point in your conclusion saying Bloodtoofs is our new Incarnation of Ironfist.
But in my opinion, instead of saying Gorefist/Weirdfist/Bloodtoofs or Ironfist like you did, I'm advocating Gorefist/Weirdfist/Bloodtoofs or no battalion at all.

Edited August 14, 2018 by DerZauberer

[Malakree]

So there's a few things which are important.

First is that an average ~3.5" of movement nearly doubles the move characteristic of the units which need it. Second there's the extra CP, which is "50 points" on it's own, then you get the second artefact and lastly it reduces you down to the mid-range number of drops. That last one is something I found is way more important than you think as armies generally fall into one of two categories. "I want to decide whether I go first or not" and "I don't care whether I decide". With an Ironfist, our average drop count is at around 6/7. This obviously won't give you a choice against one drops, like bloodtoofs, but it will reliably give you the choice against any army which even vaguely sits on the fence. 

Lastly, as The Big G is one of the main reasons to NOT go Bloodtoofs, you still want a battalion to go with him. Assuming you aren't going Gordrakkfist then the Weirdfist is really....well weird with him. It doesn't synergise properly and feels like the two portions of your army are fighting against each other. In that regard the Ironfist is the clear winner.

In the end it really comes down to what level you are after achieving. If it's topping the grand final, go look at another allegiance because honestly we are not even close to king at the moment, or if you want the strongest army IJ can put out at the moment it is probably Gordrakkfist.

Other than that only the Brutefist isn't a 3/5 or 4/5 (on a good day) imo. Just don't take the Brutefist and you'll get something that is pretty solid.

 

[BobbyB]

On ‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 8:44 PM, Malakree said:

 

Multi-Waaagh!

So I used a list with this in at the throne of skulls tournament over the weekend and it's filth, I didn't expect it to be anywhere near as much filth as it actually is but it's just disgusting. Using Bloodtoofs you generally get to pick if you want turn 1 then casting Cogs gives you such a giant threat range. I'd say this build is really strong and the opponent HAS to move to counter it or you will really wreck them. Despite this, after consideration, I'm actually inclined to agree that it's not broken. Very strong, but not broken. If you do go off then it's one turns worth of huge explosive unstoppable power, or you can stagger it out to get several turns of powerful but not overwhelming strength.

what was the list out of interest? Sorry if this has been covered already, couldn't find it!

[Malakree]

31 minutes ago, BobbyB said:

what was the list out of interest? Sorry if this has been covered already, couldn't find it!

Basically this 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Lens of Refraction 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 118
 

The key point is the Broach and Bloodtoofs. It wasn't supposed to be a competitive tournament and I felt bad about it afterwards.

[broche]

@DerZauberer  I think the same. I find that too often ironfist only purpose is to put on par for movement with other army. An extra command point cost just 50 and will let you have triumph in almost all game. What more difficult is the extra artefact cause it's the only way to get.

[tolstedt]

On 8/13/2018 at 3:13 AM, ChatBatFun said:

Has anyone ever taken the Grot Wolf Chariot as an ally in an ironjawz list. It is really fast (12”), it can also run,shooot and charge. At only 40points, isn’t it an option in an Ironjawz list, as a supper light, quick objective grabber?

Yes I use them and they are great for screening.  The 1/4 allies restriction is annoying in 2e however.

[broche]

9 minutes ago, tolstedt said:

Yes I use them and they are great for screening.  The 1/4 allies restriction is annoying in 2e however.

yeah, at 40 pts it must be the cheapest screen! can be great to take undefended objective, but unfortunatly they will never take anything with model on it 

[Turbo_Otter]

Big hand to @DerZauberer and @Malakree, I can't really find specifics to reply to but you've given me some tasty food for thought. I recently got a second Mawkrusha (which I'll build as the big bad G, obviously) so I'll definitely try the Gordrakkfist* as well.

 

* - that'd be a maxed out Ironfist in an army with Gordrakk, yes?

[Backbreaker]

4 hours ago, Turbo_Otter said:

Big hand to @DerZauberer and @Malakree, I can't really find specifics to reply to but you've given me some tasty food for thought. I recently got a second Mawkrusha (which I'll build as the big bad G, obviously) so I'll definitely try the Gordrakkfist* as well.

 

* - that'd be a maxed out Ironfist in an army with Gordrakk, yes?

No, it's Gordrakk with a Gorefist, your army charge turn 1 with a lot of attacks and enough mov buff to use Gruntas ability (charge from 8" to do D3 damage instead of 1). 

I think it's a good list but quickly boring :) 

[Turbo_Otter]

10 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:

No, it's Gordrakk with a Gorefist, your army charge turn 1 with a lot of attacks and enough mov buff to use Gruntas ability (charge from 8" to do D3 damage instead of 1). 

I think it's a good list but quickly boring

Oh! Well, I can see that. Thanks for the clarification.

[Skabnoze]

Gorefist is the traditional Gordrakk build, but I think there is mileage for a number of battalion builds with him.  In fact, I would not rule out Gordrakk with an Ardfist either.  With Gordrakk and some Cogs combined with the Ardboyz drummer bonus you can get those guys across the table surprisingly fast.  Alpha strike a ton of then straight into the teeth of the enemy, kill as much as you can, and then immediately bring back any units you lose.  I’m sure there is some play to be had there.

[Superninja]

I recently played gordrakk/ardfist and it was pretty good in my opinion.

 

1x Gordrakk, Fist Of Gork (580)

1x Orruk Warboss, ally, Waagh Banner (140)

1x Fungoid Cave Shaman, ally, (80)

1x Warchanter, Prophet of Waagh, Aetherquartz Brooch (80)

1x Warchanter, Ardfist Battalion, Mirrored Quirass (80)

5x10 Arboys (800)

Ardfist battalion (170)

Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1990/2000

Command Points: 1

Allies: 220/400

Wounds: 137

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by Superninja

[Rock Lobster]

52 minutes ago, Superninja said:

I recently played gordrakk/ardfist and it was pretty good in my opinion.

 

1x Gordrakk, Fist Of Gork (580)

1x Orruk Warboss, ally, Waagh Banner (140)

1x Fungoid Cave Shaman, ally, (80)

1x Warchanter, Prophet of Waagh, Aetherquartz Brooch (80)

1x Warchanter, Ardfist Battalion, Mirrored Quirass (80)

5x10 Arboys (800)

Ardfist battalion (170)

Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1990/2000

Command Points: 1

Allies: 220/400

Wounds: 137

 

I like this, it’s original. Plus 10 ardboyz with the gordrak and boss command trait plus warchanter is surprisingly punchy at 60 attacks, 3+ 3+ reroll 1’s to wound.

there is good saturation of characters too so they don’t immediately (hopefully) pop the critical warchanter for the ardfist.

the problem with the ardfist is that they need to be closest to the warchanter, meaning to stick your boys in a useful place in the opponents backfield you need to get the warchanter upfield as quickly as possible past the half way mark.

Another potential option is to swap gordrak the boss for mega boss on maw krusha, warchanter and then bump 1 ard boys unit to a 20 with 2 handed weapons to give you a 2nd hammer plus an extra command point, more warchanter buffs. You can still do your +3 attacks and have more bodies.

The other option is to go all in with the ardboyz and swap out gordrak for a giant unit of 30 ardboyz and a megaboss on foot. So you have a unit of 30, a unit of 20 and 3 units of 10.   That gives you more than 4 x the number of wounds in the trade and you can hit that unit with both warchanter buffs to have circa 120 attacks hitting on 2’s wounding on 3s with rend 1. You can capture objectives with the mini units, chuck this and the 20 man into the opponents army and savage it, then bring it back to life.

[Rock Lobster]

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

Gorefist is the traditional Gordrakk build, but I think there is mileage for a number of battalion builds with him.  In fact, I would not rule out Gordrakk with an Ardfist either.  With Gordrakk and some Cogs combined with the Ardboyz drummer bonus you can get those guys across the table surprisingly fast.  Alpha strike a ton of then straight into the teeth of the enemy, kill as much as you can, and then immediately bring back any units you lose.  I’m sure there is some play to be had there.

There is not quite enough movement I think without the ironfist for this, although if your opponent is foolish and moves 4inches forward or more it is certainly a nasty surprise for them.