AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Ravinsild]

4 hours ago, Smash said:

 

Thoughts on last list:

1. Should definetly fill the last point gap
   • Would rather reinforce more gruntas or brutes over ardboys as ardboys works best in 5 squads anyway, because of weapon reach. 
   • If this is because of missing models and you have to use ardboys i would probably have 1 squad of 15 and try to get use out of the rally with a chanter and again hopefully change out the last ardboyz with something more expensive.
2. I still dont think having mega bossy is giving any value.
   • In your list you would use MD to move your 2 grunta units and the MK (maybe not needed because of fast un). And teleport your brutes. This enables 4 charges, and you should call waaagh to get it more reliably. Using another MD is not gonna get any other units in charge range anyway, so those ardboys should just be deployed and run for objectives. 
   • With fast un you can even maybe skip targeting your krusha with MD, and have enough move with 24 inches pre charge? Unless fast un is needed to hit some important very far back deployed unit or something (This is flex you can have in the match).  To move your ardboyz a bit further if needed. 
   • To be fair, I do think Mega bossy is a good choice if you had even more gruntas in your list. Because that will enable more gruntas to charge t1. But i don't think megabossy would make a difference when used on ardboyz and brutes. This is where the teleport is usefull. 

Sidenotes with even bigger changes to the list. So feel free to ignore.

1. Arcane tome: This is needed as you use brutes and gruntas. only way to get them into combat semi reliably t1. If your list was only gruntas, I would consider switching the tome for Destroyer to realy make sure your MK destroyes something, as your realy want to trigger Smashing and basing. (This also means I would value Mega bossy higher having more pigs). And the fast un trait will let you charge whatever you want. 
2. I use a Rogue idol in my list that is similar to yours, but I am not sure what i would pick if I owned more Grunta models.

 

I don't want to seem like I'm hating on Mega bossy, but my experience is that I realy don't have the cmd points to support it anyway.  

 

I personally haven’t played AoS 3.0 yet only 2.0 so I have no experience with this new tome. 
 

Also I cannot find anywhere that I can get Hand of Gork from the tome. It says they learn arcane bolt and mystic shield and the wizards section of the core rules says they know any spells on their Warscroll in addition to any endless spells but nothing about Spell Lore spells. Unless there’s rules about spell lore, but I wasn’t able to locate it. 
 

Also I’m in the process of painting my army and this is purely a quirk of mine but I’m subassembly painting every model in my army so I’m replacing models which are grey plastic with new ones I bought. I don’t even know if I’ll paint the already built models because it’s going to be really hard to get to all the details and such with a bunch of stuff in the way but I technically own between 12 and 15 Gore-Gruntas but 9 will be painted. I’ve got 3 painted already and 6 more on the sprues. Same with my Brutes, I have 1 fresh box unopened and I was going to buy 1 more. 
 

Last point is about the ArdBoyz: honestly I hate ArdBoyz. I hated the meta where spamming as many ArdBoyz as possible was the way to play Ironjawz. However I have 15 painted right now and I didn’t want to waste all the time and effort I put into painting them for a meta and a way of playing I hated so I’m using them to get value out of my time wasted so I don’t have to spend like $200 more dollars on Brutes and Gore-Gruntas and paint those up. Also they feel useful as a screening unit as well as hardy objective holders thanks to their ward save. Mostly it’s just to justify my time and energy spent painting them though. 

[Vastianos]

1 hour ago, Ravinsild said:

I personally haven’t played AoS 3.0 yet only 2.0 so I have no experience with this new tome. 
 

Also I cannot find anywhere that I can get Hand of Gork from the tome. It says they learn arcane bolt and mystic shield and the wizards section of the core rules says they know any spells on their Warscroll in addition to any endless spells but nothing about Spell Lore spells. Unless there’s rules about spell lore, but I wasn’t able to locate it. 
 

Also I’m in the process of painting my army and this is purely a quirk of mine but I’m subassembly painting every model in my army so I’m replacing models which are grey plastic with new ones I bought. I don’t even know if I’ll paint the already built models because it’s going to be really hard to get to all the details and such with a bunch of stuff in the way but I technically own between 12 and 15 Gore-Gruntas but 9 will be painted. I’ve got 3 painted already and 6 more on the sprues. Same with my Brutes, I have 1 fresh box unopened and I was going to buy 1 more. 
 

Last point is about the ArdBoyz: honestly I hate ArdBoyz. I hated the meta where spamming as many ArdBoyz as possible was the way to play Ironjawz. However I have 15 painted right now and I didn’t want to waste all the time and effort I put into painting them for a meta and a way of playing I hated so I’m using them to get value out of my time wasted so I don’t have to spend like $200 more dollars on Brutes and Gore-Gruntas and paint those up. Also they feel useful as a screening unit as well as hardy objective holders thanks to their ward save. Mostly it’s just to justify my time and energy spent painting them though. 

The rules on faction spells are in the individual battletomes. Should be above the spell lore. 

"You can choose or roll for one spell from the following table for each IRONJAWZ WIZARD in an Ironjawz army."

Edited January 7, 2022 by Vastianos

[Andrew G]

I've been out of the loop for a month, but I'm guessing the double MK meta may shift to something like this due to the amulet change (not drastically different than before mind you). 
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Touched by the Waaagh!
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
- Lore of the Weird: Bash 'Em Ladz
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (340)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
Rogue Idol (430)*
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121
Drops: 1
 

I ran 2 MK/ double Warlord battalion (or my actual filth list of 1 MK and 21 GGs, but that list is out the window now) prior to the Winter update. Mostly with Amulet/Smell Un' MK and my general MK with Touched/Arcane Tome/ Fast 'Un. 

Points changes on GGs took double Warlord off the table for me - even if possible, I don't think it would even be worth now with the amulet change. Before, most people had their damage sponge MK and the "techy" MK with either Destroyer/Arcane Tome. I'm waffling on which MK archetype to include now.

It was a no brainer with how Amulet worked previously, but I'm starting to think the "Tech" MK builds are going to be the way to go. You can mitigate a lot of the potential threats by just standing an MK 30"+ and still threaten charges/ big buffs out of unbind range.   Bash Em' Ladz is ridiculously high value in IJ, and I'm leaning toward the Arcane Tome build. Especially with the inclusion of a Rogue Idol.

That said, it will only take a few games of getting my single MK shot off by longstrikes or sentinels T1 or top of T2 to change my mind on that (will the 6+ ward even really help anyway... not sure).  I've been able to play around the DOK double-tap fairly effectively, but it may be just because the local DOK players are not as strong as the SC/Lumineth guys in my area.

Anyway, just some initial musings now that I'm back from vacation and had some time to consider the implications. Wondering what the consensus is for the rest of you (if there is one) for what min/maxed IJ lists are going to look like. 

[Ravinsild]

3 hours ago, Vastianos said:

The rules on faction spells are in the individual battletomes. Should be above the spell lore. 

"You can choose or roll for one spell from the following table for each IRONJAWZ WIZARD in an Ironjawz army."

It was difficult to find that in the online version but I do have the real life book too. In addition I think it is supported by the Core Rules under Enchantments because it says you can take 1 Enchantment of each type and Spell Lore is one of those.

I know I was talking about my weird neurotic need to perfectly paint every single model exactly perfectly and to get into all the recesses and have complete detail in my painting work, but the actual sum of my forces that I may or may not paint because they're fully assembled would be:

15 Painted Ardboyz and about 35 unpainted ArdBoyz. I might have more unpainted I have between 60 and 70 Ardboyz.

5 Unpainted Unbuilt Brutes and 15 unpainted built Brutes with Choppas and Boss Klaw and 10 unpainted built Brutes with Jagged Gore-Hackas and Boss-Klaw because MSU with Choppas and groups of 10+ with Jagged Gore-Hackas was always the rule to the best of my knowledge. Still haven't decided for my current lists whether to build and paint 1 unit of 10 with Jagged Gore-Hackas or 2 MSU with Choppas. I need another box of Brutes either way.

6 unassembled and unpainted Gore-Gruntas I was going to paint and assemble with Jagged Gore-Hackas, 3 Built and fully painted Gore-Gruntas with Jagged Gore-Hackas and 9 to 12 unpainted but already built Gore-Gruntas with Pig Iron Choppas because I got them in AOS 1.0 when Pig Iron Choppas were the better weapon.

I have 1 built but unpainted Megaboss on Maw-Krusha, and I have 1 unbuilt still on the sprue MBMK I was going to sub assemble paint to replace my current one.

God I think I have like 6 Warchanters, one of which is sub assembled and ready for painting and 2 which are on the sprues I plan on painting.

I have like 4 built but unpainted Weirdknob Shaman.

So technically I have tons of Ironjawz I just feel bad that the built ones won't get painted "right" and I don't know what to do with them but I can still play with them and make lists with them. If this knowledge helps refine my lists in any way viewing what options I have available to me. I keep running into not enough points for Brutes or Gore-Gruntas and just stuffing in a Weirdknob to eat points up...

Edited January 7, 2022 by Ravinsild

[Icetea]

I played a game last night against the dirty nurgle. Though I lost, it was a great game. I played double MBoMK and GGs. I ran arcane tome with Bash em Lads. 

In theory, I thought Bash em Lads would be a good idea, but in hindsight, teleport all day every day. 
 

the ability to pivot and be a threat anywhere on the table I find to be really important. Realistically, our damage comes when we waaaagh and we only have 1 shot at it. That means, circling around the enemy and poking in the meantime until you position yourself for an attack is how I believe this army excels. With fast un and teleport, your Mawcrushers can be a threat anywhere and with 6x mighty destroyers, your out of charge range and get to Choose the engagement. 
 

with destroyer artefact, AoA and Finest hour, you really should be killing anything (their biggest threat) and activate smashing and bashing. Then you just peel the banana in the way you think best. 
 

that’s my thoughts though, the +1 to wound was nice, but mobility I think is where it’s at. 

[broche]

With the point increase of GG and amulet gone i'm also theorizing single krusha list (with arcane tome) and more body is the way to go. On my side i would probably go for foot of gork on the krusha and hand of gork on an extra foot wizard

@Andrew G i don't dislike your list. However i'm unsure about the rogue idol.I'm not sure it's ever gonna worth it's point value in Ardboys / gruntas / brutes unfortunatly

[Ravinsild]

The lists I’ve been considering are running about 43 bodies and 151 wounds 

[Holy_Diver]

10 hours ago, broche said:

With the point increase of GG and amulet gone i'm also theorizing single krusha list (with arcane tome) and more body is the way to go. On my side i would probably go for foot of gork on the krusha and hand of gork on an extra foot wizard

As I had proposed a few posts ago (but sometimes it happens to be ignored):

On 1/7/2022 at 12:42 PM, Holy_Diver said:

I wanna play this Irosunz list, but I dunno if I gonna aim at low drop or don't care:

Mk
Warchanter
Warchanter
Megaboss on foot
2x10 Brutes
2x5 Ardboys
6x Gruntas

It's a lot of wounds and menaces, but I'm testing diffrent configurations before a big tournament. Against nurgle daemons I lost, for example.

This is an "all offensive army", so without any defence ability, to protect us I think we must put as many (useful) wounds as we can, on the battlefield. 

[Andrew G]

16 hours ago, broche said:

With the point increase of GG and amulet gone i'm also theorizing single krusha list (with arcane tome) and more body is the way to go. On my side i would probably go for foot of gork on the krusha and hand of gork on an extra foot wizard

@Andrew G i don't dislike your list. However i'm unsure about the rogue idol.I'm not sure it's ever gonna worth it's point value in Ardboys / gruntas / brutes unfortunatly

I personally moved away from teleport now. It's situationally very impactful, but unless you want to have your wizard back-boarding with another unit the entire game to avoid unbinds (even then, this requires your opponent to basically back line castle himself) you'll need to brute-force it through with a Touched by the Waaagh caster (which is also not entirely reliable in this meta). Knowing I have little to no reliability in the spell casting, I rather have spells like Foot/ Bash Em' Ladz that usually net some type of value regardless of what turn they go off. Basically, while teleport has a higher peak value, you probably will not get off the turn that it actually matters. In an already high mobility army, and with the unleshed hell nerf... I'm just not seeing the value although it remains entirely viable. 

Not directed toward you, but I'd just say that I think people are not doing the math on how good Bash Em' Ladz actually is. The +1 wound is absolutely massive DPS increase that allows you to hit key damage thresholds on multiple units at once. For example, a unit of 6 pigs does 35 damage to a 3+ save unit reliably rather than just feasibly with Bash Em Ladz. In the era of the save stack, you're in very little danger of "wasting damage" if you can do some quick mental math.

Point taken on the Rogue Idol, it's not worth it a straight comparison to Brutes or GGs. It's mostly there because it fills the one-drop neatly. I've been playing without battle regiments the whole edition, but it's undeniably powerful to choose who goes first. It can outright win you some games on certain scenarios. That said, I think I'll play around with some list ideas that stay 1 or 2 drops but drop the Idol. 

Thanks, as always. 

[broche]

9 minutes ago, Andrew G said:

Basically, while teleport has a higher peak value, you probably will not get off the turn that it actually matters. In an already high mobility army, and with the unleshed hell nerf... I'm just not seeing the value although it remains entirely viable. 

I would definitaly not take teleport on the maw krusha that is for sure. But an extra foot wizard carrying it is not bad value. Often the "teleport menace effect" can win game by itself because you're opponent will still have to take into account you can teleport in his strategy. More decision usually convert to more mistake. And if he does not that mean you've 1 luck roll of scoring a back objective for a turn, often a game winner. Obviously this excluded in 1-drop army. But i think if you go for not-a-one-drop army bloodtooth is probably the weakest clan as other clan give you option if you are on the play (specially ironsunz with the countercharge)

 

21 minutes ago, Andrew G said:

Not directed toward you, but I'd just say that I think people are not doing the math on how good Bash Em' Ladz actually is. The +1 wound is absolutely massive DPS increase that allows you to hit key damage thresholds on multiple units at once.

hahaha yeah don't worry i truly measure the bash them lad value . I don't think math wise there is any reason to priorize another spell over it. I a have a personnal bias toward foot of gork for unrationnal reason. I still like the fact that it provide potential range damage in a pure melee army, even if it's unreliable 

[Ravinsild]

I'm trying to get games going in my club to test 2 lists, which are essentially the same list, just one is a 2 drop list and one is a 4 drop list. It's the exact same units.

The idea I am testing is Waaagh! Leader versus Megabossy for mobility in 2 different ways (more reliable charge or more Mighty Destroyers). I am also testing 1 Artifact (Arcane Tome on Warchanter with Teleport) and a Weirdknob with Bash 'Em Ladz (the 2 drop list) or a 2 Artifact list that's 4 drops with a Command Detachment and Battle Regiment, and the other Artifact being Armor of Gork on Maw-Krusha for survivability and not needing to use Killa Beat on my MBMK target.

However it must be noted that to the best of my knowledge, in my club at least, nobody is playing meta tournament lists. We have Sylvaneth, a lot of Stormcast but I don't think they are running the tournament list, other Orruk players, Death players, Ogors, Gloomspite Gitz and a lot of chaos such as Nurgle Maggotkin, Hosts of Slaanesh, Blades of Khorne (at least 2 players) and Skaven. I don't know anyone who plays Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth Realmlords, Idoneth Deepkin, or anything like that. I think our Sylvaneth player also rocks Cities of Sigmar but idk what kind. Nobody has a Kragnos.

With the people I'm playing with and the fact I don't go to tournaments I'm not sure I need to run the 2 drop list but hopefully I can start testing my list and find out what works for me and what doesn't.

I value Hand of Gork purely to get my Brutes where they need to go since they are slow, but offensively pretty powerful. I don't care about my ArdBoyz at all, they will probably almost never receive Mighty Destroyers. In my mind they're a screen to protect my pigs and brutes from charges as well as my heroes and then to split off and baby sit back field objectives and try to keep a Warchanter nearby for Rally to help them recover from spells or shooting and stay on a backfield objective.

The offense of my army will be the 9 gore-gruntas and 10 brutes but I know the Brutes more than likely cannot get a turn 1 charge w/o hand of Gork, calling Waaagh! and running Mighty Waaagh! Leader for a +1 re-rollable charge. Even then they may not be very likely to get stuck in. I'm trying to figure out how to reliably use my Brutes due to their lack of speed in comparison to my GGs and MBMK. Another concern is my Warchanters and Weirdknobs being able to keep up in order to project their buffs and abilities within range.

Honestly I struggled with the old book in AOS 2.0 and I wonder if I am going to struggle with this book too. I don't think I am very good at Ironjawz.

[Holy_Diver]

14 hours ago, Andrew G said:

I personally moved away from teleport now. It's situationally very impactful, but unless you want to have your wizard back-boarding with another unit the entire game to avoid unbinds (even then, this requires your opponent to basically back line castle himself) you'll need to brute-force it through with a Touched by the Waaagh caster (which is also not entirely reliable in this meta). Knowing I have little to no reliability in the spell casting, I rather have spells like Foot/ Bash Em' Ladz that usually net some type of value regardless of what turn they go off. Basically, while teleport has a higher peak value, you probably will not get off the turn that it actually matters. In an already high mobility army, and with the unleshed hell nerf... I'm just not seeing the value although it remains entirely viable. 

Not directed toward you, but I'd just say that I think people are not doing the math on how good Bash Em' Ladz actually is. The +1 wound is absolutely massive DPS increase that allows you to hit key damage thresholds on multiple units at once. For example, a unit of 6 pigs does 35 damage to a 3+ save unit reliably rather than just feasibly with Bash Em Ladz. In the era of the save stack, you're in very little danger of "wasting damage" if you can do some quick mental math.

Unfortunately I disagree with the teleport, for the simple fact that it is possible to use the "master of magic" command trait on any wizard (or arcane tome hero). In this way we not only have an almost guaranteed cast, but also a good antimagic.
I find the footboss a very good bearer of this tactic, for his point cost, after many playtests.

Talkin in general, I see many many people in this forum (look at the dragons topic for example) thinks "if an army is good to do one thing, that thing is the only way to play aginst anyone". That's a ****** bigger than a skyscraper.
In my group this philosophy of listing is called: "mono-mossa" (in english I think is "One-Trick-Pony").
Example: Ironjawz must alpha strike or, even going second, maximazi dps turn one? And what happens if you fail at it? You very lost.
So all the conceptions of one drop listing, relying all the games only on 3 warscrolls (MK+pigs+chanter) and concentrate a lot of points in a bunch of wounds (Idol or double MK) is like think of winning a formula 1 race just by accelerating.

[Underworld40k]

13 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

I'm trying to get games going in my club to test 2 lists, which are essentially the same list, just one is a 2 drop list and one is a 4 drop list. It's the exact same units.

The idea I am testing is Waaagh! Leader versus Megabossy for mobility in 2 different ways (more reliable charge or more Mighty Destroyers). I am also testing 1 Artifact (Arcane Tome on Warchanter with Teleport) and a Weirdknob with Bash 'Em Ladz (the 2 drop list) or a 2 Artifact list that's 4 drops with a Command Detachment and Battle Regiment, and the other Artifact being Armor of Gork on Maw-Krusha for survivability and not needing to use Killa Beat on my MBMK target.

However it must be noted that to the best of my knowledge, in my club at least, nobody is playing meta tournament lists. We have Sylvaneth, a lot of Stormcast but I don't think they are running the tournament list, other Orruk players, Death players, Ogors, Gloomspite Gitz and a lot of chaos such as Nurgle Maggotkin, Hosts of Slaanesh, Blades of Khorne (at least 2 players) and Skaven. I don't know anyone who plays Daughters of Khaine, Lumineth Realmlords, Idoneth Deepkin, or anything like that. I think our Sylvaneth player also rocks Cities of Sigmar but idk what kind. Nobody has a Kragnos.

With the people I'm playing with and the fact I don't go to tournaments I'm not sure I need to run the 2 drop list but hopefully I can start testing my list and find out what works for me and what doesn't.

I value Hand of Gork purely to get my Brutes where they need to go since they are slow, but offensively pretty powerful. I don't care about my ArdBoyz at all, they will probably almost never receive Mighty Destroyers. In my mind they're a screen to protect my pigs and brutes from charges as well as my heroes and then to split off and baby sit back field objectives and try to keep a Warchanter nearby for Rally to help them recover from spells or shooting and stay on a backfield objective.

The offense of my army will be the 9 gore-gruntas and 10 brutes but I know the Brutes more than likely cannot get a turn 1 charge w/o hand of Gork, calling Waaagh! and running Mighty Waaagh! Leader for a +1 re-rollable charge. Even then they may not be very likely to get stuck in. I'm trying to figure out how to reliably use my Brutes due to their lack of speed in comparison to my GGs and MBMK. Another concern is my Warchanters and Weirdknobs being able to keep up in order to project their buffs and abilities within range.

Honestly I struggled with the old book in AOS 2.0 and I wonder if I am going to struggle with this book too. I don't think I am very good at Ironjawz.

Just came back from a  small (18 player) local tournament with a 4-1 and ran something that probably looks similar 

Bloodtoofs sub alligence

1x MBoMK - Destroyer & Mighty Waaagh

3x Warchanters

1x Shaman - Hand of gork

3x 5 Ard Boyz

10 Brutes w/ hakkas

3x 3 Gruntas

Ran in 2 battle regiments. Handled really well and has a lot of bodies and wounds.

Brutes did sterling work largely in the back field (screened by 1 of the ard boyz) as a deterrent to anything that wanted to come at me early game and then as a significant 2nd wave threat as the game went on. Gruntas and MBoMK put pressure on early game as needed and shaman hand emergency hand of gork option for either reactions brutes or a warchanter but this was taken largely with the belief the spell would never actually succeed. 

The amount of rend 2 meant that i never felt the waaagh was the must have tipping point (although it has huge value). That said i didnt play against morathi bow snakes or lumineth although the loss did come form the new flying circus that is stormcasts on dragons. 

[Backbreaker]

Waaagh lad'z!

I continue to have really good results with my all-rounder list. A bit of everything with a bit more gruntas. I just stopped to use a weirdnob and am putting an arcane tome on a warchanter.

I faced a lot of stormcats recently, with paladins and dragons, we really have the perf (-2 or -3) needed to bash them.

Only time I was just blocked was against Belakor and the infamous khorne daemon prince, this command ability is just stupid, the perfect example of non interactivity an with no counter play.

 

With enough Ironjawz games, I started to play with Big Waaagh... it's crazy powerful, much more than before imo.

 

Now, the plan is to have fun with our swamp cousins, currently building the doominion box set...

[Andrew G]

3 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:

Unfortunately I disagree with the teleport, for the simple fact that it is possible to use the "master of magic" command trait on any wizard (or arcane tome hero). In this way we not only have an almost guaranteed cast, but also a good antimagic.
I find the footboss a very good bearer of this tactic, for his point cost, after many playtests.

Talkin in general, I see many many people in this forum (look at the dragons topic for example) thinks "if an army is good to do one thing, that thing is the only way to play aginst anyone". That's a ****** bigger than a skyscraper.
In my group this philosophy of listing is called: "mono-mossa" (in english I think is "One-Trick-Pony").
Example: Ironjawz must alpha strike or, even going second, maximazi dps turn one? And what happens if you fail at it? You very lost.
So all the conceptions of one drop listing, relying all the games only on 3 warscrolls (MK+pigs+chanter) and concentrate a lot of points in a bunch of wounds (Idol or double MK) is like think of winning a formula 1 race just by accelerating.

The list I posted is slightly altered version of a top 3 list at Austin open, most of the 5-0 lists since the book drop(vast majority) are double MK,GG, Warchanter lists. Master of magic doesn't stop actual Chad casters from stopping the teleport, it barely makes hitting the casting value reliable... That said, you're basically going with the "brute force" the spell through method which I've already mentioned. Since by nature the casting in IJ is unreliable even going with brute force, the argument is that you go with spells that have broadly general utility regardless of the board state rather than one that has higher utility, only in specific moments. 

What you and your group don't realize are these lists are not alpha striking with 3 hammers T1 unless the opponent makes a deployment mistake. They skirmish with the units of 3 ggs,  peel screens , bloodtooth end of combat move to lock down mobile hammers, move back onto objectives after clearing screens and triple redeploy to avoid counter punches. put their hammers out of harms way and use MD/fast un to close gaps once they see an opening. You're attributing a play style used in these lists based on your experience, Im guessing, not the reality of how good IJ players play. 

 

[broche]

2 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

I continue to have really good results with my all-rounder list. A bit of everything with a bit more gruntas. I just stopped to use a weirdnob and am putting an arcane tome on a warchanter.

interesting. I guess you're still using a maw krusha? what artefact do you use on him?

[Andrew G]

2 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

With enough Ironjawz games, I started to play with Big Waaagh... it's crazy powerful, much more than before imo.

Now, the plan is to have fun with our swamp cousins, currently building the doominion box set...

I wouldn't day it more powerful than in AoS 2, not by a longshot. That said, I've been playing around with a big waagh list with manskewers, sludgeraker, wurgog prophets, GGs, Warchanter, foot boss, and 5x3 ardboyz with good success. Manskewers actually help the prophets gain a ton of value forcing the opponent toward you. GGs, warchanter, footboss don't need explanation. It's been pretty fun playing more of a combined arms list

[Holy_Diver]

12 minutes ago, Andrew G said:

The list I posted is slightly altered version of a top 3 list at Austin open, most of the 5-0 lists since the book drop(vast majority) are double MK,GG, Warchanter lists.

And then? You are starting by a list that near everyone can study, because it won a big tournament (months ago).

Assumed this, let's analyze that choice in the current situation:
- lost the 5+ ward on MK (dataslate)
- lost the possibility to heal MK in CC (dataslate)
- lost 2 units of GG (point rise)
- Stormdrakes appeared!
- new Nurgle appeared!
- new Kragnos appeared!

Now, "5x3 GG" how can they solve these new problems? You can skirmish with paper screens (admitted and not granted you had destroyed they) and then step back.
Let's be honest: when the pairings are selected the only thing you can do is hope to not to run into someone who has a minimum of vision of game, because if you are "zooned out" you have no way to recover the game.

40 minutes ago, Andrew G said:

Master of magic doesn't stop actual Chad casters from stopping the teleport, it barely makes hitting the casting value reliable... That said, you're basically going with the "brute force" the spell through method which I've already mentioned. Since by nature the casting in IJ is unreliable even going with brute force, the argument is that you go with spells that have broadly general utility regardless of the board state rather than one that has higher utility, only in specific moments. 

So a spell that enters at the 55% of probabilities, and can be rerolable, is unreliable? Instead a 42% (with no buffs) is relieable?
And who are those  chads of sorcery that dominates the actual magic phase?

[Andrew G]

31 minutes ago, Holy_Diver said:

And then? You are starting by a list that near everyone can study, because it won a big tournament (months ago).

Assumed this, let's analyze that choice in the current situation:
- lost the 5+ ward on MK (dataslate)
- lost the possibility to heal MK in CC (dataslate)
- lost 2 units of GG (point rise)
- Stormdrakes appeared!
- new Nurgle appeared!
- new Kragnos appeared!

Now, "5x3 GG" how can they solve these new problems? You can skirmish with paper screens (admitted and not granted you had destroyed they) and then step back.
Let's be honest: when the pairings are selected the only thing you can do is hope to not to run into someone who has a minimum of vision of game, because if you are "zooned out" you have no way to recover the game.

So a spell that enters at the 55% of probabilities, and can be rerolable, is unreliable? Instead a 42% (with no buffs) is relieable?
And who are those  chads of sorcery that dominates the actual magic phase?

I have buffs to cast on the build I posted with bash ladz, for one. It's +2 to cast base, with potential +4 (much better than a reroll when you factor in unbinds btw!)  You're not accounting for unbinds in your success chance of getting teleport off. I really don't know what to say about the "Chad wizards" you have not been encountering (which explains a lot), Kairos in tzeentch and legion, lumineth, seraphon ( the most represented faction at top tables in the last few months.) 

We're not talking about one list that won months ago. The vast majority of GT winning IJ players ran some version of double mk,  warchanters, ggs. You can hand wave the data off based on your personal assessment of the vulnerability, but at that point we're just arguing about what we FEEL is good rather than what is actually consistently working. 

That said, I'll let this conversation go. I don't doubt your experience, I just have a very different one based on the gt scene and following the larger meta closely. 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Andrew G

[NauticalSoup]

Somebody's never tried to cast a spell into lizards lol

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

I have buffs to cast on the build I posted with bash ladz, for one. It's +2 to cast base, with potential +4 (much better than a reroll when you factor in unbinds btw!)  You're not accounting for unbinds in your success chance of getting teleport off. I really don't know what to say about the "Chad wizards" you have not been encountering (which explains a lot), Kairos in tzeentch and legion, lumineth, seraphon ( the most represented faction at top tables in the last few months.) 

We're not talking about one list that won months ago. The vast majority of GT winning IJ players ran some version of double mk,  warchanters, ggs. You can hand wave the data off based on your personal assessment of the vulnerability, but at that point we're just arguing about what we FEEL is good rather than what is actually consistently working. 

That said, I'll let this conversation go. I don't doubt your experience, I just have a very different one based on the gt scene and following the larger meta closely. 

 

I can safely say that in my local meta there are no lumineth or Seraphon players. I think someone may have a Nagash. Destruction and Chaos are popular here but not Tzeentch, Nurgle and Khorne are popular and we have 1 dedicated Slaneesh player who won’t play anything else and has no other armies. 
 

There are death armies around I know a few people who have them, such as Gravelords and OBR however I’m not sure if they’re actively used. One of the death player also has like 8 other armies including Ironjawz and I’m not sure what army he’s using atm. 
 

Stormcast Eternals, Cities or Sigmar and Sylvaneth are popular I know at least 3 Stormcast players who are running the newest units. Overall my meta is pretty weird. Ogors of all types are popular so are Gargants. There’s no elf lovers among us, so I’ve never seen DoK or Lumineth although we used to have a Deepkin player but he sold that army. 
 

I think the most relevant the meta could be for me personally is if I went to a local event called Nashcon which I think I have been told is the biggest tournament in the South Eastern United States but I have no way of knowing if this is true or just event propaganda to get people to attend. That, being a tournament, is probably far more likely to have the kinds of armies you’ve been talking about but since I’m a slow painter my army is never ready on time. It’s in August though so I feel like a lot could change between now and then, and the meta could look completely different based on FAQs and which Battletomes get released and so forth. 
 

All this to say I think I agree with Holy Diver in that there must be more than 1 way to skin a cat. There can’t only be 1 true way to run Ironjawz and make them work, there’s got to be more in the book than that. 

[Holy_Diver]

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

I have buffs to cast on the build I posted with bash ladz, for one. It's +2 to cast base, with potential +4 (much better than a reroll when you factor in unbinds btw!)  You're not accounting for unbinds in your success chance of getting teleport off.

It's more risky auto-inflicts wounds in the current meta, beacuase of ranged threats.
So you trade a major buff (only to cast) with vulnerability.
 

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

 I really don't know what to say about the "Chad wizards" you have not been encountering (which explains a lot), Kairos in tzeentch and legion, lumineth, seraphon ( the most represented faction at top tables in the last few months.) 

Ever heard that you can position yourself beyond the dispel range? And not so many "top tier" army have full table dispel.

 

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

We're not talking about one list that won months ago. The vast majority of GT winning IJ players ran some version of double mk,  warchanters, ggs. You can hand wave the data off based on your personal assessment of the vulnerability, but at that point we're just arguing about what we FEEL is good rather than what is actually consistently working. 

All the considerations that I brought you are quite far from personal feelings: each of them is linked to objective data and although the lists you mention have won tournaments, IJ only won one tournament last month (also with a 4-1).
This means that all the armies at the high tables are gradually learning to take countermeasures to the type of list you have proposed. And all that before the dataslate.

 

2 hours ago, Andrew G said:

That said, I'll let this conversation go. I don't doubt your experience, I just have a very different one based on the gt scene and following the larger meta closely. 

In fact, I hope you are not taking this on personal level, because we are simply talking about competitive game datas and ways to deal with it with an army we have in common. I expressed my disappointment with a different approach than mine and I argued.

 

1 hour ago, NauticalSoup said:

Somebody's never tried to cast a spell into lizards lol

Mh I tested against Nagash (old warscroll). Do we take it for good as comparison?

[Andrew G]

48 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

I can safely say that in my local meta there are no lumineth or Seraphon players. I think someone may have a Nagash. Destruction and Chaos are popular here but not Tzeentch, Nurgle and Khorne are popular and we have 1 dedicated Slaneesh player who won’t play anything else and has no other armies. 
 

There are death armies around I know a few people who have them, such as Gravelords and OBR however I’m not sure if they’re actively used. One of the death player also has like 8 other armies including Ironjawz and I’m not sure what army he’s using atm. 
 

Stormcast Eternals, Cities or Sigmar and Sylvaneth are popular I know at least 3 Stormcast players who are running the newest units. Overall my meta is pretty weird. Ogors of all types are popular so are Gargants. There’s no elf lovers among us, so I’ve never seen DoK or Lumineth although we used to have a Deepkin player but he sold that army. 
 

I think the most relevant the meta could be for me personally is if I went to a local event called Nashcon which I think I have been told is the biggest tournament in the South Eastern United States but I have no way of knowing if this is true or just event propaganda to get people to attend. That, being a tournament, is probably far more likely to have the kinds of armies you’ve been talking about but since I’m a slow painter my army is never ready on time. It’s in August though so I feel like a lot could change between now and then, and the meta could look completely different based on FAQs and which Battletomes get released and so forth. 
 

All this to say I think I agree with Holy Diver in that there must be more than 1 way to skin a cat. There can’t only be 1 true way to run Ironjawz and make them work, there’s got to be more in the book than that. 

I think if you read over the initial exchange between Broche and I and you'll see that I do think there's a grey area in list building. The whole exchange initially was me mentioning taking out hand of gork from the list due to point increases on GGs and less need to counter unleashed hell with teleport/fast un' combo-- I obviously rate it highly.

Now do I think the changes in the winter update are going to dramatically alter what has proven to be our most dominate build archetype ... no, not really. Do I think many have a misconception on why these lists are so much more dominate than others, very much so.

That said, I wholeheartedly believe it's hard to build a "bad" IJ army unless you're trying to do it intentionally. My meta is basically me playing netlist, after netlist in preparation for GTs so my perception of what is best is obviously skewed with certain matchups in mind. Your mileage may vary if these prolific GT lists are not what you're playing against regularly. 


 

[Holy_Diver]

15 hours ago, Andrew G said:

Now do I think the changes in the winter update are going to dramatically alter what has proven to be our most dominate build archetype ... no, not really. Do I think many have a misconception on why these lists are so much more dominate than others, very much so.

That said, I wholeheartedly believe it's hard to build a "bad" IJ army unless you're trying to do it intentionally. My meta is basically me playing netlist, after netlist in preparation for GTs so my perception of what is best is obviously skewed with certain matchups in mind. Your mileage may vary if these prolific GT lists are not what you're playing against regularly. 

Ok, cool. Let's chat about the 2022 news:

1) you face Nurgle (20+10 plaguebearers or 4x5 blightkings, choose one). What's your strategy?

2) you face Bastian + 4 Stormdrakes + 6 Raptors in one drop. What's your strategy?

Edited January 12, 2022 by Holy_Diver

[GunslingerOy]

On 1/12/2022 at 6:04 AM, Holy_Diver said:

Ok, cool. Let's chat about the 2022 news:

1) you face Nurgle (20+10 plaguebearers or 4x5 blightkings, choose one). What's your strategy?

2) you face Bastian + 4 Stormdrakes + 6 Raptors in one drop. What's your strategy?

1) Lift them off the table with murder bacon and fat lizards

2) Die screaming 🤷