AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[dnusha]

21 minutes ago, Warmill said:

The reason this is coming up is because people on your side of the argument are reading that for a unit to receive a command ability it has to fall in to steps 1 and 2, I'm pointing out that only step 1 is required to issue a command ability. "You can issue this ability when a unit is attacked": that's it, fulfil that requirement and you can issue the command. The megaboss fits into the sequence here, at which point you can choose 3 units to receive it. Step 2 then comes in to effect, which is that the unit that was targeted must receive it. The rules don't say only that unit can receive it, or a unit must be attacked to receive it, just that the unit that IS targeted must receive it. That's the difference, and that's why triple spamming attack and defence is valid. "That unit must receive the command" does not exclude "other units may receive the command", the megaboss specifically allows other units to receive the command.

 

Oh I'd be happy to be on the other side of the argument, I just don't think it's correct with the current rules. If we are impyling that we only need step 1 and we can igrone restriction of recieving CA for other two units just because MB said "they must recieve" we gonna have some crazy ****** going on with other CAs. If so let's try to ignore restrictions of other CA:

Redeploy - Only one guy needs to be in 9' and 2 others can be anywhere in  18' from the Boss and move d6 because someone moved on the other side of the board near the first guy.

Rally - need to be in 3' away from the enemy - lets ignore that for other 2 units and Rally right near the enemy!

Unleash Hell:  enemy must finish charge within 9', one guy in 9' gets UH, two others units of 20 arrowboyz shoot from 18' Right? we are ignoring restrictions and applying the effect, and so on.

Obviously it's absurd. We can't just ignore restriction for CA because Boss saying so, we need a Step 2. Units should be eligible to recieve an effect of the ability. ATM for AoA it's not the case (other 2 units aren't attacking), yeah you kinda can apply AoD when unit splits attacks, but i think, despite of this post this is not how AoD (and AoA) should work.

 

GW just thrown this "pick 3 units instead of one" in a book without thinking of how that will exactly work(it used to work with Gordrakk but wording changed). It's not the first time they are doing this and it's not going to be the last one. Everyone make mistakes. AoA and AoD should give buffs to three units like Gordrakks CA used to do, they just need to fix wording or add additional lines in Warclans FAQ (obviously nobody is going to FAQ Core Rules) something like "In case of using AoD/AoA apply effect to two other IJ units".

If we are here to improve our game lets just write a letter/letters to AoSFAQ@gwplc.com to GW AoS Rules team and ask them to clarify this issue (in case you are going to do this please be polite and respectful). 

[broche]

17 hours ago, Vastianos said:

Question here. I would love to add a rogue idol for my list building options, but find the forgeworld model too goofy for my tastes. Many artists offer proxies that look much better or could easily be converted.

My question is, would a proxy of a forgeworld model be tournament legal?

What about using Stonehorn as a base? it's already a "Stony" model. You could replice rider with something totemish. 

I never really liked the rogue idol model anyway

[Warmill]

2 minutes ago, dnusha said:

Oh I'd be happy to be on the other side of the argument, I just don't think it's correct with the current rules. If we are impyling that we only need step 1 and we can igrone restriction of recieving CA for other two units just because MB said "they must recieve" we gonna have some crazy ****** going on with other CAs. If so let's try to ignore restrictions of other CA:

Redeploy - Only one guy needs to be in 9' and 2 others can be anywhere in  18' from the Boss and move d6 because someone moved on the other side of the board near the first guy.

Rally - need to be in 3' away from the enemy - lets ignore that for other 2 units and Rally right near the enemy!

Unleash Hell:  enemy must finish charge within 9', one guy in 9' gets UH, two others units of 20 arrowboyz shoot from 18' Right? we are ignoring restrictions and applying the effect, and so on.

Obviously it's absurd. We can't just ignore restriction for CA because Boss saying so, we need a Step 2. Units should be eligible to recieve an effect of the ability. ATM for AoA it's not the case (other 2 units aren't attacking), yeah you kinda can apply AoD when unit splits attacks, but i think, despite of this post this is not how AoD (and AoA) should work.

 

GW just thrown this "pick 3 units instead of one" in a book without thinking of how that will exactly work(it used to work with Gordrakk but wording changed). It's not the first time they are doing this and it's not going to be the last one. Everyone make mistakes. AoA and AoD should give buffs to three units like Gordrakks CA used to do, they just need to fix wording or add additional lines in Warclans FAQ (obviously nobody is going to FAQ Core Rules) something like "In case of using AoD/AoA apply effect to two other IJ units".

If we are here to improve our game lets just write a letter/letters to AoSFAQ@gwplc.com to GW AoS Rules team and ask them to clarify this issue (in case you are going to do this please be polite and respectful). 

Thing is, all the examples you list as absurd and are perfectly valid, rally specifically says 'the unit that receives the command must be more than 3" away from enemy units", which has a different meaning to "that unit", so no you couldn't triple issue it to a unit that was in combat. As long as 1 unit fulfils the requirement to issue the command, the other units can receive the command. You're confusing the requirements to issue a command with eligibility to receive a command, which is why it seems absurd to you.

 

As an analogy, if i'm in a room full of kids and my boss says when a kid is hungry you can give out an apple, the kid that is hungry must receive an apple, if I only have one apple the answer is obvious. If a bigger boss says when you give out an apple you can give out 3 apples instead of one, do the other 2 kids have to be hungry? No, as long as the hungry kid gets an apple.

[dnusha]

31 minutes ago, Warmill said:

all the examples you list as absurd are perfectly valid

yeah i don't think any judge would take your side on this but ok, i mean with enough mental gymnastics everything is possible i guess.

Edited October 8, 2021 by dnusha

[Warmill]

5 minutes ago, dnusha said:

yeah i don't think any judge would take your side on this but ok, i mean with enough mental gymnastics everything is possible i guess.

Should have been 'all the examples you list as absurd are perfectly valid' but I edited it halfway through. My point stands though, does my analogy help you understand why they're valid? As long as the hungry kid gets an apple the other 2 kids don't have to be hungry, according to the rules as written. Your take is that the rule was 'only' the hungry kid can get an apple, but that's not what the rules were.

[dnusha]

8 minutes ago, Warmill said:

Should have been 'all the examples you list as absurd are perfectly valid' but I edited it halfway through. My point stands though, does my analogy help you understand why they're valid? As long as the hungry kid gets an apple the other 2 kids don't have to be hungry, according to the rules as written. Your take is that the rule was 'only' the hungry kid can get an apple, but that's not what the rules were.

Analogy has nothing to do with the rules. Your point is "Megaboss issues a  command, one guy recieves it and everything else doesn't matter, two other guys must recieve CA effect and there are no restrictions AT ALL that prevents them from recieving the effect", that is certainly not the case. 

[Warmill]

25 minutes ago, dnusha said:

Analogy has nothing to do with the rules. Your point is "Megaboss issues a  command, one guy recieves it and everything else doesn't matter, two other guys must recieve CA effect and there are no restrictions AT ALL that prevents them from recieving the effect", that is certainly not the case. 

You do understand that my hypothetical apple-giving situation is using literally the same rules as issuing and receiving CAs, right? I'm applying the megaboss rule in its entirety because there IS nothing in the rule about restrictions, just pick 3 units to receive it. You're reading it as "may pick 3 units to receive the command ability instead of 1 as long as all 3 units meet all the requirements at the same exact moment", and that's not what the rule says is it?

[Andrew G]

40 minutes ago, dnusha said:

Analogy has nothing to do with the rules. Your point is "Megaboss issues a  command, one guy recieves it and everything else doesn't matter, two other guys must recieve CA effect and there are no restrictions AT ALL that prevents them from recieving the effect", that is certainly not the case. 

well, there would be a restriction that they would have to be wholly within 18" of the megaboss but basically you got the other side of the argument. 

Again, we've heard playtesters specifically mention that they issued all-attack through the Megaboss in their games at the studio (great examples of a CA where only one unit meets the initial trigger requirement). 

That said, I personally am tired of arguing with my local group on this (which is split down the middle on interpretation) and play it as every unit who receives a CA needs to meet the initial trigger requirement/ have "eligibility". I'll treat the FAQ as a nice windfall if it falls on the side I think it's going. 
 

[dnusha]

36 minutes ago, Warmill said:

You do understand that my hypothetical apple-giving situation is using literally the same rules as issuing and receiving CAs, right? I'm applying the megaboss rule in its entirety because there IS nothing in the rule about restrictions, just pick 3 units to receive it. You're reading it as "may pick 3 units to receive the command ability instead of 1 as long as all 3 units meet all the requirements at the same exact moment", and that's not what the rule says is it?

We are not playing with analogues here. (and i do understand your example with kids and apples it;s just that it has nothing to do with actual rules) We have strict rules for abilities, their effects and restriction for these effects. We also have core rules. We have units that may recieve or may not recieve an effect from ability.  According to these rules you can not pick more than one unit to fight, According to these rules you can not apply an effect of ability to units not eligible for it due to effects restrictions. Megaboss ability can modify core rules, restrictions from abilty can't be modified.  In order to apply effect of CA to 2 other units they should fit into restrictions in description of from that ability.  They can't.

My take on this: feel free to play like you want, if GW will clarify this in FAQ - great, who doesn't want 3x AoA AoD. If not well, this is going to follow us on events untill new edition.

Edited October 8, 2021 by dnusha

[Malakree]

I've already been to an event and nobody complained about me using AoA and AoD on 3 units. 

[broche]

I think at this point further discussion on the subject is pointless. Current concensus seem to be that it work on 3 units. Could change with the FAQ. 

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, broche said:

I think at this point further discussion on the subject is pointless. Current concensus seem to be that it work on 3 units. Could change with the FAQ. 

To give my opinion on each of them.

All out attack, defence, inspiring presence, snb and rally all just work when triggered.

Overwatch works on multiple units but they must target the charging unit. Imo they ALSO must be within 9".

Redeploy works but can only target units that are within 9" of the enemy unit which triggered it.

The 6" run applies to 3 units in range but doing so declares that all 3 will run.

The charge reroll can target 2 additional units when it is first triggered but you have to choose it then. Having done so you don't need to reroll as it says you "can" reroll the charge.

EDIT: This is nothing to do with literal definitions of the rules and more my expectations of how TOs will rule in tournaments.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Malakree

[Andrew G]

28 minutes ago, Malakree said:

To give my opinion on each of them.

All out attack, defence, inspiring presence, snb and rally all just work when triggered.

Overwatch works on multiple units but they must target the charging unit. Imo they ALSO must be within 9".

Redeploy works but can only target units that are within 9" of the enemy unit which triggered it.

The 6" run applies to 3 units in range but doing so declares that all 3 will run.

The charge reroll can target 2 additional units when it is first triggered but you have to choose it then. Having done so you don't need to reroll as it says you "can" reroll the charge.

I agree with the end result of everything you outlined, but I'm much more black or white on this discussion. 

A) Either all units who receive a CA need to meet the trigger condition at the time the CA is issued (be a target of an attack, an enemy ends a move within 9", etc.)
-or-
B) One unit needs to meet the trigger condition for the CA to be issued, and then the other two selected units just need to be in range of the MB.

Picking and choosing when to apply either interpretation is just a little too arbitrary for my taste. If they wanted to get granular in the FAQ with each CA, and choose your interpretation for each CA, I'm all for it.  Unfortunately, I think they'll just pick either A and B when they clarify how the ability is supposed to work. 

[Warmill]

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

I agree with the end result of everything you outlined, but I'm much more black or white on this discussion. 

A) Either all units who receive a CA need to meet the trigger condition at the time the CA is issued (be a target of an attack, an enemy ends a move within 9", etc.)
-or-
B) One unit needs to meet the trigger condition for the CA to be issued, and then the other two selected units just need to be in range of the MB.

Picking and choosing when to apply either interpretation is just a little too arbitrary for my taste. If they wanted to get granular in the FAQ with each CA, and choose your interpretation for each CA, I'm all for it.  Unfortunately, I think they'll just pick either A and B when they clarify how the ability is supposed to work. 

I agree with you, it's going to get ruled 100% one way or the other, no individual CA interpretation. If there was going to be a granular interpretation it would've been covered in the megaboss rule to start with. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Warmill

[riddlesworth]

It's all in the triggers.

 

Rally - "the unit that receives the command must be more than 3 inches away from enemy units"

Redeploy - "the unit that receives this command must be within 9 inches of that enemy unit"

Inspiring Presence - "use this command ability at the start of the battleshock phase. The unit that receives this command..."

 

Those conditions and timings must be met for the MB to issue the command to the unit, regardless of how many he issues to.

 

All out Attack - "when you pick a unit to fight in the combat phase, add 1 to hit rolls for attacks until the end of the phase. That unit must receive the command."

 

Skull shaking bellow: "when you pick this unit to issue a command, you can pick up.to 3 friendly IJ units to recieve the command instead of only 1"

 

The unit making the attacks receives the command. All conditions are met. That two other units also receive the command is inconsequential.

 

The wording makes it non restrictive. Thiugh I would not be surprised at.all to see it FAQd out either

[QuinacridoneGold]

Hello ladz.

I will be playing a 1500 pt game against Slaves to Darkness very soon. No clue on his list. Battleplan is going to be "Mark the Territory"

Here is the list I want to try.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

- Warclan: Ironsunz

- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line

LEADERS

Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*

- General

- Command trait: Hulking Brute

- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist

- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny

- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un

Orruk Warchanter (115)*

- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat

Orruk Warchanter (115)*

- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

UNITS

5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)*

5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)*

10 x Orruk Brutes (320)*

- Jagged Gore-hackas

6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)*

- Jagged Gore-hackas

CORE BATTALIONS

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL: 1500/2000 WOUNDS: 110

The list is 1-drop to ensure second turn.

The krusha has amulet of destiny and rip-toof fist for defense, and Hulking Brute and mean 'un to maximize damage on the charge and stomp.

I reinforced the units of brutes and gruntas to be both under the effect of the Command Ability multiplier of the Maw Krusha. Not sure how we will deal with the controversy for All Out Attack/Defense.

I know brutes are slow, but with Mighty destroyer issued from the MK and an "At the Double" command ability (they would never really charge at turn 1) they would travel an impressive 14" in my first turn, and, while not fighting alongside with the Krusha and Gruntas in the first combat phase, the Ironsunz Countercharge could make them very scary at my opponent's second turn.

The units of Ardboys are there to camp on home objectives

The 2 Warchanters don't even require explanation.

What do you guys think? I am not sure if i want to keep the gruntas and brutes reinforced, and advance in a single block or split at least the gruntas in two MSU leaving the block of brutes a little far behind. Also, I am considering switching the command trait to Mega Bossy, to issue multiple counter charges or Move with mighty destroyers across different portions of the field

 

Thank y'all very much in advance!

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by QuinacridoneGold

[Scurvydog]

3 hours ago, QuinacridoneGold said:

I will be playing a 1500 pt game against Slaves to Darkness

 

It will probably be easy then and your list is going to work great. Hard to make a bad ironjawz list really. 3 Big hammer units makes some sense as your boss can mighty destroyer all of them.

Slaves are only any good thanks to Archaon, everything else is rather weak and got no chance to stand up to a charging Mawkrusha or rend 2-3 brutes and so on. They lost all their reroll saves stuff and they have no ranged firepower, so will have to engage a far far stronger melee army. Aside from poor dice rolling there is not much reason the new ironjawz should lose to StD. 

If fighting for objectives and they use Marauders, you can always just send brutes after them with "you messin?" to completely nullify their numbers, although the number will be 0 rather quickly after melee with 10 brutes

[Noggab]

Hey guys I played new Ironjawz with Ironsunz yesterday. Me and my friend got confused with "At the end of enemy charge phase" rule. So I used Ironsunz ability on my friend's end of charge phase and made charge with Mawkrusha but we realized Monstrous rampage goes off on "end of charge phase". So my friend used his Monstrous rampage first and then I used Ironsunz ability to charge, but we couldn't figure out if MK still can use Monstrous rampage after it charged. 

[Shirtripper]

44 minutes ago, Noggab said:

Hey guys I played new Ironjawz with Ironsunz yesterday. Me and my friend got confused with "At the end of enemy charge phase" rule. So I used Ironsunz ability on my friend's end of charge phase and made charge with Mawkrusha but we realized Monstrous rampage goes off on "end of charge phase". So my friend used his Monstrous rampage first and then I used Ironsunz ability to charge, but we couldn't figure out if MK still can use Monstrous rampage after it charged. 

The active player does all of his "End of [phase]" abilities in whichever order they choose, then the non-active player does the same.

In this case, you can definitely use the Ironsunz CA to charge with the MK, then use its Monstrous Rampage.

[Boggler]

Still no FAQ lol?

Here is some interesting stuff that I found:

Ironjawz took home First place at the Michigan GT. As far as I can tell he is using a list that has not been posted in this thread.

Spoiler

Double MBMK, Double Mount Trait, Tripple Warchanter! But wait? No Fast Un?

I'll let you guys dissect this one. Obviously player skill was involved.

Ironjawz also took 3rd and 4rth place out of 75 at the Mancunian Carnage. Here are a few couple lists. Its great to see the variations and again, nothing beats player skill and having a plan of attack for each of the battleplans and opponents.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

- Warclan: Ironsunz

- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line

- Triumphs: Inspired

Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)**

- General

- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist

- Command Trait: Heroic Stature

- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)

- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un

Orruk Warchanter (115)**

- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

Orruk Warchanter (115)**

- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat

Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)

- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork

Orruk Megaboss (140)***

- Artefact: Destroyer

10 x Orruk Brutes (320)*

- Jagged Gore-hackas

- 2x Gore Choppas

- Reinforced x 1

15 x Orruk Ardboys (255)*

- 3x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers

- Reinforced x 2

5 x Orruk Brutes (160)*

- Jagged Gore-hackas

- 1x Gore Choppas

3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**

- Pig-iron Choppas

3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)***

- Pig-iron Choppas

*Hunters of the Heartlands

**Warlord

***Vanguard

Artefact

Total: 1975 / 2000

Reinforced Units: 3 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 128 Drops: 10 

This list only lost to a Teclis Sentinel castle and that Lumineth only went on to finish 2/3 while Ritchie finished 4-1

Spoiler

Russ Veal - Facehammer

Allegiance: Ironjawz

- Warclan: Ironsunz

- Grand Strategy: Waaagh!

- Triumphs: Inspired

Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)**

- General

- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist

- Command Trait: Mighty Waaagh! Leader

- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)

Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*

- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist

- Artefact: Destroyer

- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un

Orruk Warchanter (115)**

- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)*

- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork

Orruk Megaboss (140)**

- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)

- Lore of the Weird: Bash 'Em Ladz

Orruk Warchanter (115)*

- Warbeat: Killa Beat

10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)*

- Reinforced x 1

5 x Orruk Brutes (160)***

- Jagged Gore-hackas

- 1x Gore Choppas

5 x Orruk Brutes (160)***

- Jagged Gore-hackas

- 1x Gore Choppas

4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)**

*Warlord

**Warlord

***Hunters of the Heartlands

Artefact

Artefact

 

Total: 1990/ 2000

Reinforced Units: 1 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 119

Drops: 10

We obviously don't care about drops here. This is why we lose to Morathi and 15 Bloodstalkers sometimes.

I hope these help you guys with some inspiration.

[Scurvydog]

9 hours ago, Boggler said:

 

  Hide contents

Double MBMK, Double Mount Trait, Tripple Warchanter! But wait? No Fast Un?

This makes sense, as the mean-un is meant to help clear out screens. With Mega bossy the 2 MKs can get a bunch of Gruntas to follow them and just create absolute havoc in the enemy's lines right from the start. If anything gets nuked by impact hits or combat, the gruntas will just continue in, to tie stuff up. 

It does rely on knowing exactly when and how to engage, outside of Waaagh the gruntas got trouble getting through tougher units with high saves, as they do not hit nearly as hard for the points as Brutes do, nor do they have the efficient staying power of ardboyz, so this is very much a finesse list. Positioning of the chanters will also be critical if going for a big engage, in order to have any steam the following turn.

[Rougarou]

Good morning, gentlemen. Hope you all are doing well. After a long hiatus from AoS my group of friends and I are starting up again and I’m running Ironjawz. My question for y’all is the load out for Brutes and Gore Gruntas. Is the jagged gore hacka a better option than the pig iron and brute choppas? We don’t play on a competitive level, just playing for gits ‘n shiggles but I’d like to at least put up a good fight. 

[Bobberto]

I've been running gore hackas on the brutes and choppas on the pigs.

I run the Brutes in stacks of ten, so fighting two deep is important with the new coherency rules. Trading one attack for everyone fighting and an extra rend is well worth it. I could maybe see the choppas on a five-stack, but even then the extra rend feels like an upgrade.

For the Gore Gruntas it's a closer choice, I think. They don't get extra rend on the spears, and with their base size the extra inch doesn't help them quite as much with coherency - there's a bit more flexibility but a six-stack still has to do some interesting positioning to get everyone fighting. The main tradeoff for the extra attack is getting the charge mortals on a 2+ instead of a 3+. I think in general I'd start with choppas, but if you're digging for impact hits or think you're gonna be charging them multiple times (oh hi, Bloodtoofs) then the spears may be worth it.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Bobberto

[riddlesworth]

8 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

outside of Waaagh the gruntas got trouble getting through tougher units with high saves, as they do not hit nearly as hard for the points as Brutes do, 

9.77 wounds from grunta gore hackas at -1 rend. Plus 2.33 mortals on the charge

Vs

4 at -2 rend, 1.33 damage 2 at -2 rend and 1.33 damage 2 at -1 rend (7.99 all in)

 

Can't remember what the cut.off is where Brutes out perform gruntas. I think it's 3+, but could be 4+.

 

[Andrew G]

5 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

9.77 wounds from grunta gore hackas at -1 rend. Plus 2.33 mortals on the charge

Vs

4 at -2 rend, 1.33 damage 2 at -2 rend and 1.33 damage 2 at -1 rend (7.99 all in)

 

Can't remember what the cut.off is where Brutes out perform gruntas. I think it's 3+, but could be 4+.

 

A lot of variables that can affect this (Unit sizes, Warchanter buff, charge no/charge, fighting 4+ wound enemy, all out attack), but assuming just warchanter buff, there's not an appreciable difference in damage unless the Brutes rend negates a save stack and gets the enemy off a 2+ save. Which is obviously very highly valuable in this meta.

Against 3+ armor w/ warchanter:

Brutes with -2 rend


Gore Gruntas with Choppas (not including MW for charge):


Upsides for me are Brutes still do appreciable damage w/o warchanter buff where gruntas really fall off. Their overall kit is just better suited for fighting 3+ armor monster heroes who can save stack and roar you. Obviously, negating 1 wound models for objective holding is situationally one of the most impactful rules in the book. 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Andrew G