AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Malakree]

32 minutes ago, broche said:

Hum that is actually a pretty good idea i didn't think that Megaboss with arcane tome could take the trait actually. You get potent wizard that can fight I like it.

Yeah and one who you don't mind having in the middle of your army unlike a weirdnob or warchanter.

[Chase]

3 hours ago, glytch said:

MK Destroyer + violent fury + waaagh (AKA rend -3 flat 7) = one dead Archaon (with full reroll and +1 save only)

Is it possible to put an artifact on the mounts attack? I'm assuming that's how you got -3/7?? 

[broche]

what about taking a Megaboss with foot of gork in Krushaless big waaagh ? You could add a Weirnob with Hand of gork. Between foot of gork, wurgog mask and some shooting from Kruleboyz it seem like a versatile army. Did that really quick:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)*
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Wurrgog Prophet (150)*
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Orruk Megaboss (140)*
- General
- Command Trait: Touched by the Waaagh!
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Weird: Foot of Gork
Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot (105)**
Orruk Warchanter (115)**
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Brutes (160)*
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (160)*
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz (240)**
- Reinforced x 1
*Battle Regiment
**Warlord
Artefact

Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 164
Drops: 6
 

 

[Spiky Norman]

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

I seriously considered it but the weirdnob is just so questionable and I wouldn't want to risk an MK without a ward save, might actually be a solid choice on a footboss with arcane tome. Maybe something like this...

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)**
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Megaboss (140)*
- General
- Command Trait: Touched by the Waaagh!
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Weird: Bash 'Em Ladz

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)*
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)*
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Orruk Brutes (320)*
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)*
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)**

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 147
Drops: 5

 

But the foot Boss is so slow, and one preferbly want to do the d3 on an enemy instead of your own, so it almost requires a teleport.

What about using the Tome and Touched by Waaagh on the MK a long with Fast Un and Cogs, paired with a Rogue Idol perhaps to lean into the d3+d3 + perhaps Bash 'em lads?

Maybe that's leaning in a bit too much on it, but it is a fun idea, though 🙂

[broche]

7 minutes ago, Spiky Norman said:

But the foot Boss is so slow, and one preferbly want to do the d3 on an enemy instead of your own, so it almost requires a teleport.

What about using the Tome and Touched by Waaagh on the MK a long with Fast Un and Cogs, paired with a Rogue Idol perhaps to lean into the d3+d3 + perhaps Bash 'em lads?

It's not a bad idea either on MK, but you would sacrifice the amulet of destiny. I'm not sure that such a good plan. I wouldn't mind too much taking the d3 mortal in T1 on some ardboys or a character (you could heal him with warchanter just after). Also ardboys have potential to come back with Rally so less of a big deal.

Megaboss isn't that slow with MD (and board are smaller now). T1 you would use MD on him and some ardboys let say, and try to take position in the middle to put pressure on objective (or send kamikaze gruntas for some pining while you advance foot troop). In round 2 there should be combat and then your opponent would face a high number of mortal wound threat. Since Big Waaagh become better the longer the game, it's a good idea to go for a more conservative turn 1. with 160 wound at 4+ you ensure you still have bodies left for late game i think.

[dnusha]

2 hours ago, Aelfric said:

You could take the Arachnacauldron Endless Spell for another 50 pts.

I'd like to but unfortunately you can't take endless spell for allied units 

[dnusha]

3 hours ago, Chase said:

Is it possible to put an artifact on the mounts attack? I'm assuming that's how you got -3/7?? 

As far as i know you can't. (edited a bit)

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by dnusha

[Aelfric]

13 minutes ago, dnusha said:

I'd like to but unfortunately you can't take endless spell for allied units 

Ah. Still in 2.0 mode, sorry about that. What a shame. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Vastianos]

Question here. I would love to add a rogue idol for my list building options, but find the forgeworld model too goofy for my tastes. Many artists offer proxies that look much better or could easily be converted.

My question is, would a proxy of a forgeworld model be tournament legal?

[Shirtripper]

12 minutes ago, Vastianos said:

Question here. I would love to add a rogue idol for my list building options, but find the forgeworld model too goofy for my tastes. Many artists offer proxies that look much better or could easily be converted.

My question is, would a proxy of a forgeworld model be tournament legal?

Depends on the tournament. 

Official GW tournament? No.

Your local LGS tournament? Up to the TO.

[Malakree]

17 minutes ago, Vastianos said:

Question here. I would love to add a rogue idol for my list building options, but find the forgeworld model too goofy for my tastes. Many artists offer proxies that look much better or could easily be converted.

My question is, would a proxy of a forgeworld model be tournament legal?

As @Shirtripper said most independent lgs wont care to much. For GW tournaments or those very closely affiliated your best bet would be to either convert a different model you like into a rogue idol or get someone else to do it if your conversion skills aren't up to it. One of the spirits of the mountain or treelord possibly even a mega if you do it well? Not sure what would be the appropriate size.

[Vastianos]

Unfortunate... especially since it has been not available on the forgeworld site everytime I have checked and anyone selling it used wants $300-$800 USD.

[Andrew G]

Wanted to share this here. Probably the only IJ review out right now where you can immediately tell he plays at high level (besides our boy @PlasticCraic) Personal bias may be coming through here, as I mostly agree with what he has to say. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfail55zLB4

Maybe I'll relent on the double krusher aversion and try it once... Like most people who pick this army; I picked my pet unit 4 years ago (Goregruntas) and always tend to skew toward that style. One thing I completely agree with it is that winning with IJ is way more player than list. You can pretty much bring whatever flavor you want and reasonably expect 4 wins.

[dnusha]

6 hours ago, Vastianos said:

Unfortunate... especially since it has been not available on the forgeworld site everytime I have checked and anyone selling it used wants $300-$800 USD.

Bro FW Rogue Idol is made or resin if you know what i mean.

  

6 hours ago, Andrew G said:

Wanted to share this here. Probably the only IJ review out right now where you can immediately tell he plays at high level (besides our boy @PlasticCraic) Personal bias may be coming through here, as I mostly agree with what he has to say. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfail55zLB4

Maybe I'll relent on the double krusher aversion and try it once... Like most people who pick this army; I picked my pet unit 4 years ago (Goregruntas) and always tend to skew toward that style. One thing I completely agree with it is that winning with IJ is way more player than list. You can pretty much bring whatever flavor you want and reasonably expect 4 wins.

I watched it yesterday and it  was very informative and on point and kinda better than previous one? (I liked video with Nathan too)

Edited October 8, 2021 by dnusha

[Scurvydog]

10 hours ago, Andrew G said:

Wanted to share this here. Probably the only IJ review out right now where you can immediately tell he plays at high level (besides our boy @PlasticCraic) Personal bias may be coming through here, as I mostly agree with what he has to say. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfail55zLB4

Maybe I'll relent on the double krusher aversion and try it once... Like most people who pick this army; I picked my pet unit 4 years ago (Goregruntas) and always tend to skew toward that style. One thing I completely agree with it is that winning with IJ is way more player than list. You can pretty much bring whatever flavor you want and reasonably expect 4 wins.

It was an enjoyable talk, but I feel much of the most interesting tricks of the book related to a FAQ clearing up exactly how the Megaboss ability to command multiple units work.

Redeploy on 3 units is mentioned, but can we be sure that is allowed? Redeploy triggers when an enemy unit moves within 9" of your unit, with redeploy you can then move that unit. How does that interact with the Megaboss ability, does only 1 unit need to "trigger" this event, and then you can redeploy 2 other units that did not have anyone end within 9"? 

All out defense happens when a unit is targeted by an attack from another unit, looking at this RAW would the megaboss be able to issue this to 2 other units not currently the target of attacks?

Something tells me that might be the intent, as that is the most simple way to look at it. RAW it becomes very complicated though and requires a lot of detailed knowledge to use "correctly".

It is a bit annoying with the 2 new books that such important abilities are so poorly implemented, the stormcast all hinges on translocation being FAQd or not (move after teleport) and Ironjawz really needs this cleared up, which commands can and can not be used in relation to the "trigger events" as that could limit the Megaboss to mostly just mighty destroyer 3 units, inspiring presence and not much else.

[dnusha]

53 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Redeploy on 3 units.

All out defense

It is a bit annoying with the 2 new books that such important abilities are so poorly implemented, the stormcast all hinges on translocation being FAQd or not (move after teleport) and Ironjawz really needs this cleared up, which commands can and can not be used in relation to the "trigger events" as that could limit the Megaboss to mostly just mighty destroyer 3 units, inspiring presence and not much else.

Redeploy wording is pretty clear, they were talking about ambushing units on objectives. You park 3 units near objective, enemy unit approaches in 9' - all of them are eligible for Redeploy closer to that unit for consequent Ironsunz charge in the end of opponents charge phase. Result: You got the objective, killed a unit and triggered SnB for 2 cp in your opponents turn. 

As for AoD atm according to current rules it only works on multiple units if attacking  unit splits its attacks. I'm all for AoD AoA to work on multiple units. In fact i think that the whole idea of mass commands has its roots in Gordrakks 2.0 Voice of Gork and should work that way. You are right we have to wait for FAQ.

Edited October 8, 2021 by dnusha

[Warmill]

45 minutes ago, dnusha said:

Redeploy wording is pretty clear, they were talking about ambushing units on objectives. You park 3 units near objective, enemy unit approaches in 9' - all of them eligable for Redeploy closer to that unit for consequent Ironsunz charge in the end of opponents charge phase. Result: You got the objective, killed a unit and triggered SnB for 2 cp in opponents turn. 

As for AoD atm according to current rules it only works on multiple units if a unit splits its attacks. I'm all for AoD AoA to work on multiple units. In fact i think that the whole idea of mass commands has its roots in 2.0 Voice of gork and should work that way. You are right we have to wait for FAQ.

All out attack and all out defence both include the words "until the end of that phase", the rules already include an allowance that they may take effect outside of the immediate issuing of that command ability. This coupled with the fact the megaboss ability is very simple, "when you issue a command ability with this model you may pick 3 units to receive it instead of 1" with no restrictive language at all makes it pretty clear to me you can triple issue aoa and aod with the only restriction being that a unit must be attacked or attack to issue it, and that unit must be 1 of the 3 that receives it. I'll be so glad when it gets faq-ed, because this is one of those situations where a large part of the community seems to have decided a rule must be way more complicated than it is.

[Scurvydog]

1 minute ago, Warmill said:

All out attack and all out defence both include the words "until the end of that phase", the rules already include an allowance that they may take effect outside of the immediate issuing of that command ability. This coupled with the fact the megaboss ability is very simple, "when you issue a command ability with this model you may pick 3 units to receive it instead of 1" with no restrictive language at all makes it pretty clear to me you can triple issue aoa and aod with the only restriction being that a unit must be attacked or attack to issue it, and that unit must be 1 of the 3 that receives it. I'll be so glad when it gets faq-ed, because this is one of those situations where a large part of the community seems to have decided a rule must be way more complicated than it is.

I agree entirely with your statement and what I also believe is the intention. I believe the designer thought the wording was very tight when making the book, without really checking in depth how each command is actually worded, which raises all these questions. I also believe the intent is to allow AoA and AoD etc. for multiple units. There is no way GW will not address this in the FAQ... I hope

[dnusha]

1 hour ago, Warmill said:

All out attack and all out defence both include the words "until the end of that phase", the rules already include an allowance that they may take effect outside of the immediate issuing of that command ability. This coupled with the fact the megaboss ability is very simple, "when you issue a command ability with this model you may pick 3 units to receive it instead of 1" with no restrictive language at all makes it pretty clear to me you can triple issue aoa and aod with the only restriction being that a unit must be attacked or attack to issue it, and that unit must be 1 of the 3 that receives it. I'll be so glad when it gets faq-ed, because this is one of those situations where a large part of the community seems to have decided a rule must be way more complicated than it is. 

Oh i wish for that to be like this but in my understanding in order for "until the end of that phase" take an affect unit in question must fit into restrictions of the command ability (which is also what core rules are telling to us - "If the effect of an ability modifies a core rule, then all restrictions that apply to the core rule still apply unless the effect specifically notes otherwise." ) And it does not seems to be the case. We are applying restriction to Redeploy when we are measuring 9' range or when we are doing the same for Unleash Hell or Rally  (only units in certain range from enemy unit can recieve a command),  , but we won't be doing this here? That doesn't seem right.

 

"when you pick a friendly unit to shoot in your shooting phase or fight in the combat phase. That unit must receive the command." Can you pick multiple units to fight at the same time? No. You are picking units to fight one by one.  Who recieves the command? a Unit that has been picked to fight.  One unit. What about the other guys? They don't get picked - they don't fit into restrictions - they won't recieve a command. At least this is how current all-out attack wordring works. Same thing with All-our defence "unit is picked as the target of an attack" how many units at same time can be attacked by another unit ? several if you split your attacks. one - most of the time.  You still can use all-out defence on three units if someone splits attacks and attacks three of your units. But can a unit that hasn't been attacked recieve a command? No.

 

If AoA would start with "at the star of combat phase pick a unit, that unit gets x" i wound have no problem with it. No, they went with current wording because it looks more flexible and less confusing (you can react to being attacked(the whole point of 3.0 commands) or pick a unit that is actually going to attack and not already recieved the damage) but at the same that ****** up things for x3 commands. Oversight? It's likely, taking into account that in 2.0 the same unit was capable of issuing basically the same command to three units.

Edited October 8, 2021 by dnusha

[Warmill]

28 minutes ago, dnusha said:

Oh i wish for that to be like this but in my understanding in order for "until the end of that phase" take an affect unit in question must fit into restrictions of the command ability (which is also what core rules are telling to us - "If the effect of an ability modifies a core rule, then all restrictions that apply to the core rule still apply unless the effect specifically notes otherwise." ) And it does not seems to be the case. We are applying restriction to Redeploy when we are measuring 9' range or when we are doing the same for Unleash Hell or Rally  (only units in certain range from enemy unit can recieve a command),  , but we won't be doing this here? That doesn't seem right.

 

"when you pick a friendly unit to shoot in your shooting phase or fight in the combat phase. That unit must receive the command." Can you pick multiple units to fight at the same time? No. You are picking units to fight one by one.  Who recieves the command? a Unit that has been picked to fight.  One unit. What about the other guys? They don't get picked - they don't fit into restrictions - they won't recieve a command. At least this is how current all-out attack wordring works. Same thing with All-our defence "unit is picked as the target of an attack" how many units at same time can be attacked by another unit ? several if you split your attacks. one - most of the time.  You still can use all-out defence on three units if someone splits attacks and attacks three of your units. But can a unit that hasn't been attacked recieve a command? No.

 

If AoA would start with "at the star of combat phase pick a unit, that unit gets x" i wound have no problem with it. No, they went with current wording because it looks more flexible and less confusing (you can react to being attacked(the whole point of 3.0 commands) or pick a unit that is actually going to attack and not already recieved the damage) but at the same that ****** up things for x3 commands. Oversight? It's likely, taking into account that in 2.0 the same unit was capable of issuing basically the same command to three units.

You've missed a very important part of the command ability wording though.

 

Step 1) you can issue this command ability when a unit is the target of an attack. Ok, unit A is the target, that means we can issue the command ability, which means we must pick a unit to do the issuing. I pick my maw krusha, whose rule specifically states when it's chosen to issue a command it can pick 3 friendly units to receive it instead of 1.

 

Step 2) that unit must receive the command ability. Ok no problem, I pick that unit A as one target, and units b and c as the others. I've now fulfilled the second part of the command ability, which is that that unit must receive the command.

 

Step 3) that unit adds +1 to save rolls until the end of the phase. Cool, 3 units now get to add +1 to their saves until the end of the phase, because the maw krusha issued the command to 3 units instead of 1.

 

Is there any restrictive language in the megaboss ability as to what units can receive a command ability? No.

Is there any restrictive language in the command abilities that a unit can only use AoD or AoA if it is the target of an attack or is attacking at that moment? No, that's why they say 'until the end of the phase'.

 

The language is simple and the intent is obvious, just spam those command abilities until an faq says you specifically can't. 

[Boar]

9 minutes ago, Warmill said:

Step 3) that unit adds +1 to save rolls until the end of the phase. Cool, 3 units now get to add +1 to their saves until the end of the phase, because the maw krusha issued the command to 3 units instead of 1.

I am not entirely convinced. Step 3 calls again for "that unit" to recieve benfit, which looks like it refers too unit that fulfills initial criteria. In that case you can issue 3 commands but only one would have effect. Perhaps.

Anyway where FAQ is due? I don't remember when exactly books came out.

[Warmill]

4 minutes ago, Boar said:

I am not entirely convinced. Step 3 calls again for "that unit" to recieve benfit, which looks like it refers too unit that fulfills initial criteria. In that case you can issue 3 commands but only one would have effect. Perhaps.

Anyway where FAQ is due? I don't remember when exactly books came out.

Step 3 is describing the effect you apply to the unit that has been issued the command ability, eg add +1 to save or +1 to hit at the point when you roll dice, not when the command is issued, as per the core rules.

[Boar]

Well but in interpretation I brought up they wouldn't really be affected by ability?

You know what, I will just wait on FAQ, it is unproductive as I think there is issue of what is intended. Particulary how using CA triggers are written, and what they exact intention is.

RAW you may very well be right.

[dnusha]

1 hour ago, Warmill said:

Step 2) that unit must receive the command ability. Ok no problem, I pick that unit A as one target, and units b and c as the others. I've now fulfilled the second part of the command ability, which is that that unit must receive the command.

 

Step 3) that unit adds +1 to save rolls until the end of the phase. Cool, 3 units now get to add +1 to their saves until the end of the phase, because the maw krusha issued the command to 3 units instead of 1.

In order to benefit from a command ability you have to recieve its effect. In order to recieve it you have to fit into restrictions for that effect. Other two units do not fit into it because they aren't attacking/not attacked.

Yes we can say that "If the effect of an ability contradicts a core rule, then the effect takes precedence." but "If the effect of an ability modifies a core rule, then all restrictions that apply to the core rule still apply unless the effect specifically notes otherwise."

Megaboss rule states "pick three units instead of one" - ok, we are modifying core rules for CA to work on 3 targets, but restrictions are still there. "effects have restrictions." Units can't recieve an effect because they aren't attacked or attacking even if megaboss issued a command.

Just another example: Unit moving into us, We are doing Redeploy because we are in 9'. But two other units are out of range of 9'   -   we are still moving them. Can we do this? No. Because restrictions are "within 9" of that enemy unit and more than 3" from all enemy units". Units that are far away can't recieve an effect because they do not fit into its restrictions.

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by dnusha

[Warmill]

44 minutes ago, dnusha said:

In order to benefit from a command ability you have to recieve its effect. In order to recieve it you have to fit into restrictions for that effect. Other two units do not fit into it because they aren't attacking/not attacked.

Yes we can say that "If the effect of an ability contradicts a core rule, then the effect takes precedence." but "If the effect of an ability modifies a core rule, then all restrictions that apply to the core rule still apply unless the effect specifically notes otherwise."

Megaboss rule states "pick three units instead of one" - ok, we are modifying core rules for CA to work on 3 targets, but restrictions are still there. "effects have restrictions." Units can't recieve an effect because they aren't attacked or attacking even if megaboss issued a command.

Just another example: Unit moving into us, We are doing Redeploy because we are in 9'. But two other units are out of range of 9'   -   we are still moving them. Can we do this? No. Because restrictions are "within 9" of that enemy unit and more than 3" from all enemy units". Units that are far away can't recieve an effect because they do not fit into its restrictions.

 

The reason this is coming up is because people on your side of the argument are reading that for a unit to receive a command ability it has to fall in to steps 1 and 2, I'm pointing out that only step 1 is required to issue a command ability. "You can issue this ability when a unit is attacked": that's it, fulfil that requirement and you can issue the command. The megaboss fits into the sequence here, at which point you can choose 3 units to receive it. Step 2 then comes in to effect, which is that the unit that was targeted must receive it. The rules don't say only that unit can receive it, or a unit must be attacked to receive it, just that the unit that IS targeted must receive it. That's the difference, and that's why triple spamming attack and defence is valid. "That unit must receive the command" does not exclude "other units may receive the command", the megaboss specifically allows other units to receive the command.