AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Gobsmakka]

I'm new here and relatively new to the game, looking for list critique and optimization. The core of this army I've been using for a while and am pretty happy with performance-wise. Adjusting to 2.0 has been tricky. Key features of this are 3 Waaagh! givers, ensuring (hopefully) some mid or late game Waaagh!, Aetherquartz broach on a Warboss on boar with banner, Fungoid shaman operating the cogs, Gore gruntas in units of 6 for a much more likely smashing and bashing trigger than 3. I would like two wizards to help ensure this goes off turn 1 but due to ally cap and the added cost of the weirdnob vs. grot shaman I can't seem to fit that in. 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
- 3x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
- 17x Big Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
Ironfist (180)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 220 / 400
Wounds: 159
 

[Jgroover]

@Gobsmakka Looks pretty good for a non-mawkrusha list. I like the big number of wounds relative to most IJ lists. Two thoughts on the artefacts though.  As of the new FAQ you can't take artefacts on allies so the brooch will have to be given to someone else. Also since you are in Hysh already you might as well take the lens of refraction or mirrored cuirass on the Megaboss since they are better than daubing. 

[broche]

@Gobsmakka good list, if you want to use the same model, i suggest you revise your trait/artefact selection. Prophet should go on Megaboss. You want your MB to be your general anyway for that 4+ get a free move stuff.  Since you're using brutes, I also strongly suggest the Golden thooth or Boss skewer for battleshock immune/bonus. 

So, Megaboss general with prophet of the waaagh

1 warchanter with Golden tooth

1 warchanter with the brooch would be what i would do with that model choice.

hope that help

[Luke.w]

How about this for a weirdfist list?

 

MBMK  440

MB  140

Weirdnob  120

Warchanter  80

10 Ardboys  160

10 Ardboys  160

10 Brutes  180

5 Brutes  180

3 GG  140

Weirdfist  180

Balewind  40

[Ravinsild]

I played an under 1000 point game against a guy at the store who had a Seraphon Start Collecting! Box and utterly crushed him without meaning to  

He has 770 points so I brought 720 points. 

No gimmicks or anything just straight Ironjawz rules. No battalions. 

He had a Saurus-Oldblood on Carnosaur, converted Scar Veteran on Cold-One, converted Astrolith Bearer and some sort of converted priest with 5 saurus knights and 10 saurus warriors. 

I brought 1 Megaboss on Foot, 1 Warchanter, 20 Ardboys and 5 brutes. 

10 of my Ardboys never left deployment as they were securing an objective. 

My list came out to 720 because I dropped my 2 units of Gore-Gruntas and his was 770. 

I think in retrospect I should have let him have first turn, but I dropped my units faster and decided to go first. 

In the first turn I dropped his Carnosaur to 1 wound with huge charges from my brutes and a 9 inch exactly charge from my Megaboss on foot. Waaaagh! Didn’t go off. I needed a 3 or less and rolled 6 and 5 with prophet of the Waaagh! 

I had used my Warchanter’s Frenzy of Violence on the Brutes. 

My Ardboys were only just able to charge into his unit of Warriors. 

After activations were all said and done his knights had piled in and taken 2 wounds off my brutes... but his OldBlood on Carnosaur was at 1 wound and his pack of Warriors was down to 2 models, and my Ardboys didn’t take a dent. 

Turn 2 he went first and proceeded to kill 2 of my brutes, but in the swing back I killed his Carnosaur which then went into smashing and bashing killing his 2 Warriors then taking his Knights down to 2 remaining with my Brutes. 

During his turn he planted his Astrolith Bearer and charged with his Scar Veteran on cold one. 

On my turn 2 I moved my Megaboss toward his Skink priest as well as my Ardboys whom he had moved to his objective. Securing charges I was in range of both objectives which is a major victory on turn 3. 

I wiped out the priest with my Megaboss giving him 8 attacks on his Boss Choppa and 9 total wounds, my Ardboys were just nearby via charge to hold the objective and my Brutes finished his knights with only his Scar Veteran and Astrolith remaining. 

I wasn’t actually trying to crush him... so is there an even lighter list we can take versus new people? Maybe exactly what’s in our Start Collecting? 3 GG 10 Ardboys and a Warchanter? 

I wanted this guys game to be a good new player experience and he said he had fun and also realized Seraphon suck without their wizards and big dinosaurs... so it was definitely a learning moment to realize what works and what doesn’t but I feel a bit guilty because I was planning on things being more even...

What list would you have brought to make it a closer game? How should I face new people on more even terms? 

[Jgroover]

1 hour ago, Ravinsild said:

What list would you have brought to make it a closer game? How should I face new people on more even terms? 

I don't think you need to change anything, in your own words sounds like you got some lucky charges and things went pretty perfect. In small games that's just something that happens. I actually think Ironjawz are pretty bad in real low point games so versus most armies there is no need to handicap.

[broche]

i'm having a reflexion about brutes. It seem right now Ardboys just seem a better overall choice every time. For simplicity, i'll assume Ardboys have big choppa for comparaison

- 4 pts vs 6 pts per effective life.

- More models for objectives and Shaman casting bonus.

- +2 to charge and better bravery.

On the counter part, Brutes hit arder (10 vs 6.67 base, but brutes have some buff Ardboys can't get like reroll). However, if you add a warchanter and +2 attack from waaagh, it become less relevant (and they do cost more)

[Malakree]

20 minutes ago, broche said:

i'm having a reflexion about brutes. It seem right now Ardboys just seem a better overall choice every time. For simplicity, i'll assume Ardboys have big choppa for comparaison

- 4 pts vs 6 pts per effective life.

- More models for objectives and Shaman casting bonus.

- +2 to charge and better bravery.

On the counter part, Brutes hit arder (10 vs 6.67 base, but brutes have some buff Ardboys can't get like reroll). However, if you add a warchanter and +2 attack from waaagh, it become less relevant (and they do cost more)

The most important difference is something @Sangfroid was advocating pre-AoS2. The Smasha for the Brute Boss is one of our very few ways to get -2 rend, that is beyond massive against a lot of different things, for example a stardrake.

[Ravinsild]

Also they don’t take up the same role. Brutes are for hunting monsters, heroes and any units with 4+ wounds primarily. They can do work against anything but they’re at their best against large things. They’re our elite infantry. 

Ardboys are just regular infantry. They’re the objective holders, screens, “chaff” (they’re a bit too durable and a bit too awesome to be just chaff) and overall flexible unit - doubly so due to the way you can load them out. You can go for rend, just spitting dice (dual-wield), Shields for defense or a mix of all of the above. 

Youre comparing apples to cucumbers. 

One is a fruit and one is a vegetable, the only thing they have in common is that they are plants. Similarly, the only thing Brutes and Ardboys have in common is they’re both Orruks. 

[tchad78]

I'm thinking about trying this build:

 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
- Allies
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Lens of Refraction 
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)

Battalions
Weirdfist (180)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Umbral Spellportal (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 160 / 400
Wounds: 157
 

[Lanoss]

Boyz

Hoping you could offer up some tactics against Daughters of Khaine. Find they just put out too many mortal wounds for us to cope with along with all their rerolls and saves after the save

Hordes of Bloodsisters, I find extremely difficult to deal with long term - almost gotta get stuck in and kill enough before they can attack back. 

Played a game last night against them, admittedly I placed and moved very poorly but ended up getting charged by 20xBloodsisters end of turn 1 and by the end of turn 2 I had lost 2 MKs(!) from magic and the BS mortal wound glare 

Not to mention Morathi hadn’t even been touched and in all my games against them she’s always bunkered behind infantry so it’s nigh impossible to get at her till he wants her to transform and clean up what’s left of my army

Thoughts?

[Superninja]

@Lanoss

Hi!  I am not an expert but I am learning.  Here are my thoughts. 

What list are you using?

Mortal wounds are one of our weaknesses, so it is going to be a tough road.

Placement and movement are both super important to us.   Often poor placement and/or poor movement choices can lead to a loss pretty quickly.   As Ironjawz, we typically want as many of our units in combat in possible at the same time that we can get.  This allows us to maximize Waaagh! and allows smashing and bashing to happen.  This takes some effort and forethought, to correctly place and move your army in such a way to achieve this.  

After your movement,  you would hopefully be out of their charge range.  If you are going to be in their charge range (after their movement)....why?  Sometimes not moving is the answer.  Measure their movement/charge range and try to stay at the higher end of that so that they would have to roll a 10+ to get to you.  This will force them into tougher situations.

IF your maw krusha gets charged before it charges, you messed up.  With 12 inch movement, fly, and possible movement from rampaging destroyers you should be able to charge something first.  Just don't charge/move him out front too soon.   Screen him with your infantry.

More ardboys to soak up damage and to stand in front of those maw krushas could help.  I am really liking a large unit of ardboys that is buffed with Frenzy of Violence (or 2) and Waaagh!   The large number of attacks that comes out is great and is usually a great way to trigger a smashing and bashing.    The fact that they can mix their weapons setups is key, allowing the back line to take shields.  Allocate the wounds to them and hope for the 6's.   This should all equate to a large tarpit unit that hits like a truck when properly buffed. 

Rock lobbers or Spear Chukkas can both be useful against 'key' targets, allowing us to target stuff that is behind their infantry.

Are you using a battalion?What battalion were you using? Lowering your number of drops by using a battalion helps and is pretty much auto include for us.  Not to mention the command point and 2nd artefact.

What command trait and artefacts were you using?  Ironclad is amazing.  Brutish cunning and Beastial Charisma are cool.

Against mortal wounds, Ignax's Scales from the realm of Aqshy can help.  4+ negates a mortal wound.    Or from Hysh there is the Mirrored Cuirass which is a 5+ against mortals(if you roll a 6+ you bounce the mortal to an enemy within 6 inches).   Hysh is also where the lens of refraction(faq'd) and the amazing AETHERQUARTZ BROOCH is from. (aetherquartz is for getting command points back after you use them on a 5+)

Between daubing of mork and these other artefacts mentioned above, you can have 1-3 of your heroes with a little more defense towards mortals. (if you have taken a battalion or two)

Edited July 27, 2018 by Superninja

[Lanoss]

All very valid points. Thanks for the insight. 

Yeah movement is key and I guess, in that game I just wasn’t paying attention (supposed to be a fun game so I wasn’t taking it too seriously). 

Just the vulnerability to mortal wounds can really hurt IJs

ill try that Asqy artefact! Thanks 

[Txplays]

Want to try my Hag with 2.0.  List 1 or 2, any suggestions?

Spoiler

Allegiance: Destruction
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Armour of Gork 
Troggoth Hag (380)
- Allies
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 380 / 400
Wounds: 109
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Destruction
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Golden Toof 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Troggoth Hag (380)
- Allies
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)
Ironfist (180)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 380 / 400
Wounds: 115
 

 

[broche]

@Lanoss I think Ironjawz have a pretty bad matchup agains DoK. He does the same thing as us (big damage spike) but have more model, better resistance, better mobility, and better ability. 

so you need to be smart and try to hurt him with a big turn before he kill your stuff, because you're gonna loose the attrition war.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Txplays said:

Want to try my Hag with 2.0.  List 1 or 2, any suggestions?

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Destruction
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Armour of Gork 
Troggoth Hag (380)
- Allies
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 380 / 400
Wounds: 109
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Destruction
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Golden Toof 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Troggoth Hag (380)
- Allies
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)
Ironfist (180)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 380 / 400
Wounds: 115
 

 

Ironskullz boys sadly aren't allowed in an ironfist since it's not keyword bold for the ardboys. That means it must specifically be a unit of orruk ardboys so list 1 isn't legal.

 

[Ravinsild]

I can’t decide which list of these 3 is the better list...

The third list would put in one of the 20 point endless spells depending on who I am facing... magic heavy would be the anti-caster maelstrom, movement heavy if I don’t think I’ll get first turn or just to block objectives shackles, or if slow and not magic heavy (dispossessed-like armies) quicksilver swords. 

[Megaboss Badgash]

I finally unlocked the way to beat DoK.

Gorefist

Hit them hard and fast before they can use witch brew - they're a glass cannon and will fold to battleshock. 

Buff the gruntas with warchanter and double waagghh (you start with 2 points turn 1 with battalion)

We played 1500 points and I went first, by the time he had his turn only Morathi, a hag, and a unit of Doomfire warlocks were left. 

[ShaneHobbes]

Has anyone tried using an Arachnarok Spider in their list? They seem like they'd be fun at the very least. On a related note, can an Arachnarok Shaman cast Gift of the Spider god on itself?

[Lanoss]

Unfortunately Spiderfangs aren’t allies 

otherwise I’d be all about some SpiderJawz

[Lanoss]

Played against Nighthaunt today. 2000pts. Nighthaunt army consisted of Lady Olynder, 2x GoS, 2x SpT, Lord Ex, 40x chainrasps, 15x Spirits, MKoS

I ran bloodtoofs

MBMK - Trait: Ironclad - Artefact: Ignax’s Scales (Aqshy)

Megaboss - Artefact: Destroyer

Warchanter - Artefact: Boss Skewer

Warchanter 

2x5 Brutes (choppas)

1x5 Brutes (gore hackas)

2x3 Gore Gruntas

Ally: Fungoid Shaman w/ Cogs

Without going into too much detail, the bravery buffs were SO good for IJs in this game!!!!

Turn 2 I fluffed all my combat rolls (even with 4 extra Waaagh attacks!!!). Did very poorly turn 2. And lost most of a brute unit and my Megaboss. 

Turn 3, I turned it all around. Rolled well and only had a single Waaagh off

Ignax’s Scales is a (GORKA)Godsend for MBMKs! I just can’t stand how much IJs suffer to mortal wounds so that was really good. 

By the end of the game we had tied on Battle Points but I had destroyed more units so a minor win there

Did like this list  

[ShaneHobbes]

Seriously? Aw man. Well I feel dumb. Weren't they Allies prior to 2.0? I've always wanted to get one. Oh well. 

[froo]

1 hour ago, ShaneHobbes said:

On a related note, can an Arachnarok Shaman cast Gift of the Spider god on itself?

Yep.

[Malakree]

So playing at a real tournament this weekend instead of a more casual one and it has house rules about no ability stacking.

Honestly without IJ are weak. We really rely on the massive explosion turns with multiple waaagh! Going off.

I'm still on the fence about the broach having not played a game which has stacking without it.

I think with the broach in play we sit as a mid T0 army (the borked ones) because of the huge swing value we have.

Without stacking we are a top of T2 army, solid 2-3/5 with most lists.

With stacking but no broach ironjawz are mid to high t1. We will occasionally take games off tournament winning lists and are a reasonable 4/5.

Also I'm not entirely sold on the cogs, at 60 points they are very high risk for their cost and are very random on the value we get. Yes they are fantastic for ggs but bloodtoofs+cp for charge reroll actually gives us that anyway and 4/4/- is garbage whether it's 1 or d3.

I think we might actually benefit way more from an emerald lifeswarm, at the same cost, or even 40 on an aethervoid pendulum with 20 in the bank.

Not to mention that just having the 60 left gets you an extra cp AND 60 towards a triumph.

Yes I love the cogs, yes I love my "I rolled an 8 so I move 14" but I'm just not sure they aren't more of a hindrance than a help. Would you rather have everything move and charge 2" more or deal d6 mortals to a bunch of stuff?

[broche]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

So playing at a real tournament this weekend instead of a more casual one and it has house rules about no ability stacking.

Honestly without IJ are weak. We really rely on the massive explosion turns with multiple waaagh! Going off.

I'm still on the fence about the broach having not played a game which has stacking without it.

I think with the broach in play we sit as a mid T0 army (the borked ones) because of the huge swing value we have.

Without stacking we are a top of T2 army, solid 2-3/5 with most lists.

With stacking but no broach ironjawz are mid to high t1. We will occasionally take games off tournament winning lists and are a reasonable 4/5.

Also I'm not entirely sold on the cogs, at 60 points they are very high risk for their cost and are very random on the value we get. Yes they are fantastic for ggs but bloodtoofs+cp for charge reroll actually gives us that anyway and 4/4/- is garbage whether it's 1 or d3.

I think we might actually benefit way more from an emerald lifeswarm, at the same cost, or even 40 on an aethervoid pendulum with 20 in the bank.

Not to mention that just having the 60 left gets you an extra cp AND 60 towards a triumph.

Yes I love the cogs, yes I love my "I rolled an 8 so I move 14" but I'm just not sure they aren't more of a hindrance than a help. Would you rather have everything move and charge 2" more or deal d6 mortals to a bunch of stuff?

without stacking i think Weirdfist is the best option. Interesting tough on Cog, give you move but give it to your opponent too. I was considering emeral lifeswarm, it's good on the MK with ironclad and/or save agains mortal, but 60 pts is a lot.