AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[riddlesworth]

50 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Oh wow, hand of gork is just orruk. I automatically assumed it would be ironjawz only. That's got some pretty nasty implications with it, the thirty gutripperz with a killaboss on gnashtooth rushing up behind for the bs immunity. Welcome to turn 1, I hope you enjoy being stuck in your deployment zone!

I did have a little double take reading it. Propa sneaky! 

I'm undecided on swampcalla or killaboss for backup. Running brutes in 5s means I only really need to inspiring presence the gutrippas. Needs testing. As does the "here's a mawkrusha with d6+3 stomp and 2 buffed units of pigs. Dela with them while I grab some points" and the "can't believe its not a wizard" megaboss on foot

[Kasper]

16 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Idea is to lead with warchanter on the "missile" Krusha to for sure murder the toughest thing possible, this is of course mostly against armies with little to no screens, which does happen sometimes. If there is no such clear target, this could be delayed a bit. Gruntas is a good target for a warchanter and highly efficient, you ideally want to at least trigger 2 smashing and bashing, so the tanky Krusha can manage without and still do some horrific damage by itself, they are still plenty scary, especially during waaagh just with the base warscroll stats.

Problem with the Weirdnob is just how unreliable it is, any half decent enemy caster will just make him a waste of points most of the time I think.

Yeah my first couple of games with the new book I was alphing with 2 MKs and 6 Pigs in one unit, hence why I wanted all 3 buffed with Warchanter. I think this is the wrong play in majority of games.. Although it can be valuable to force your opponent back in his deployment zone for a turn or two. 

I used the same list (2 MK, 3 WC, 1 Weirdnob, 3x 5 Ardboyz, 6 Pigs in double Warlord) but decided to split the 6 Pigs into 2x3 this time against Morathi and 15 Bowsnakes. I went with Amulet on my General MK and then Gork + Fast 'Un as suggested by @Malakree, the third enhancement went to a Warchanter so he can buff Mystic Shield.

My opponent gave me first turn and I buffed 5 Ardboyz + 3 Pigs + MK with Fast 'Un, then tripple moved the MK (got Mystic Shield) and double moved the Pigs on the front/right side of his castle. The 5 Ardboyz got teleported on the far left flank of his castle. I made all 3 charges and my MK easily killed 20 Witch Elves (screen), triggered Smashing and Bashing which allowed my Pigs to pile in 3" forward and then kill 18 out of 20 Witched Elves (so close!!!, the Pigs failed all 3 impact hits.. AND the MK failed his Stomp and I was a dum-dum and forgot the shooting on my MK, was too eager to charge). My Ardboyz went into 10 Witches but the ladies activated first due to lack of SnB, they killed 2 Ardboyz in return but the 3 buffed Ardboyz killed 6 Witch Elves in return. Obviously I rolled 6 on battleshock so only the Champion stood remaining..

This left him with basically nothing but 1 Medusa, 1 Hag, 15 Bow Snakes and then Morathi and Shadow Queen. All his shots and magic went into the 3 Pigs and it left 1 Pig remaining 1 wound. He didnt want to shoot it in the shooting phase with the 15 Bow Snakes because he wanted to use it to slingshot the Shadow Queen into my Maw Krusha. The Pig was basically standing between Shadow Queen and MK with the MK like 4" behind the Pig. He charged the Pig and couldnt reach far enough to get to the MK on the charge alone, so I activated Ironsunz CA which sent the MK flying forward into the 15 exposed Bow Snakes. That was game, he conceeded on the spot. 

Even if he had made a long enough charge to my MK, he literally had no screens now and the board was wide open for my remaining 3 Pigs or MK to destroy the 15 Bow Snakes at almost any given turn with double move or potentially a teleport (had Arcane terrain piece - We rolled for one side and then mirrored the effects on the other side).  

 

Fun fact: The GHB booklet is wrong, it says Unleash Hell can only be used in the enemy's charge phase - This is false. The Core Rules simply state that it can be used "in the charge phase", so charging something with Ironsunz mean they can Unleash Hell on you!

Scratch the above - I was made aware that since we get to countercharge at the END of the charge phase, a command ability that is used DURING the charge phase can not be used, so we can freely countercharge without suffering any damage!

 

Mental note: Not alphaing creates for a great and properly more controlled game for you. Clearing him from his screens is such a big thing while still keeping 2 big threats at home to be a clear-up crew. I should probably have sent the 3 Pigs and my general MK further up the board in a position to countercharge with Ironsunz CA in his following turns, but I was somewhat scared of facing a double turn. 

 

Thoughts on list: 2x3 Pigs certainly seems more versatile than 1 big blob even if you can do the fancy half-flower formation.

I cant really decide on the list - Im at 1950 so I have a triumph every game (99/100 properly) which will likely always be +1 wound triumph. This feels great on the MK with Gork artefact to limit odds of whiffing.

I have mixed feelings on the Weirdnob because its 50/50 on the Teleport but it does create a fear effect for the opponent and it leaves options later in the game to get into the enemy's territory or the good old teleport 12,5" away, MD 3" away and charge.

I get 3 enhancements which can unlock Arcane Tome because Mystic Shield is boss on the MKs. I guess I could swap the 3rd Warchanter for a Madcap Shaman  though, since it would also give me Mystic Shield. Then I can spend the artefact on something else or give the 2nd MK a mount trait like Smelly 'Un/Mean 'Un. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Kasper

[dnusha]

4 hours ago, Kasper said:

Fun fact: The GHB booklet is wrong, it says Unleash Hell can only be used in the enemy's charge phase - This is false. The Core Rules simply state that it can be used "in the charge phase", so charging something with Ironsunz mean they can Unleash Hell on you!

I'm not sure about this. In Core Rules Command abilities are sorted by Phases. (in case of Unleash Hell with a note "You can use the following command abilities in the charge phase") On the other hand while Unleash Hell is under Charge Phase part in core rules it's description states that it can be used "after an enemy unit finishes a charge move."  In addition it's said that "The unit that receives the command can shoot in that phase".

Other CA usually have some indication of a phase when you can use them:

Rally - at the start of the hero phase.

At the Double - after you declare that a friendly unit will run. (you can only run in movement phase, right?)

Redeploy - in the enemy movement phase after an enemy unit finishes a normal move, run or retreat.

Forward to Victory - after you make a charge roll for a friendly unit.

Unleash Hell - after an enemy unit finishes a charge move. 

All-out-Attack - when you pick a friendly unit to shoot in your shooting phase or fight in the combat phase (actually this command is under 'ATTACKING' part of the rules)

All-out-Defence - when a friendly unit is picked as the target of an attack in the shooting or combat phase. (also under ATTACKING)

Inspiring Presence - at the start of the battleshock phase.

 

From what it looks like i don't see why Unleash Hell won't be working in other phases (at least from the wording of it) Ah at least they can't Redeploy if someone charges with MD. Ironsuns ability wording is "at the end of enemy charge phase". So he charges first with all of his units and then we can charge.  Thanks for battle report!

 

UPD. I actually think this is maybe going to be FAQed? Rules for Phases and Command abilities : "A model cannot issue more than 1 command in the same phase and a unit cannot receive more than 1 command in the same phase. In addition, you cannot use the same command ability more than once in the same phase (even for different units)." Isn't it too much unleash hell shooting in different phases for one turn? (even for 2-3 cp) 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by dnusha

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, dnusha said:

'm not sure about this. In Core Rules Command abilities are sorted by Phases. (in case of Unleash Hell with a note "You can use the following command abilities in the charge phase") On the other hand while Unleash Hell is under Charge Phase part in core rules it's description states that it can be used "after an enemy unit finishes a charge move."  In addition it's said that "The unit that receives the command can shoot in that phase".

The last part of 1.6.1 explains why you cant use Unleash Hell on a unit that is charging with the Ironsunz command ability. 

[Malakree]

Also worth noting that the person whose turn it is does all their end of turn stuff first. It means that Ironsunz charge ability is the last thing that happens in the round with no response possible.

[dnusha]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

The last part of 1.6.1 explains why you cant use Unleash Hell on a unit that is charging with the Ironsunz command ability. 

Right, so basically Unleash Hell not specifies when it happens(means you can't use it in the end of the phase), while ironsunz ability specifies(in the end of the phase) and that means it can't be countered by unleash hell?

 

"Abilities can only be used in the phase specified in their rules."  UH only wording is "that phase" does it  mean any phase when enemy unit ended it's charge within 9' from that unit or "that phase" is actually a chrage phase. 

 

Spoiler

Also maybe if Unleash Hell rules aren't specify it's phase maybe it shouldn't even work!!Here we go.We defeated UH boyz. Checkmate Luminets! 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by dnusha

[dnusha]

1

Edited September 22, 2021 by dnusha

[Kasper]

10 minutes ago, dnusha said:

Right, so basically Unleash Hell not specifies when it happens(means you can't use it in the end of the phase), while ironsunz ability specifies(in the end of the phase) and that means it can't be countered by unleash hell?

 

"Abilities can only be used in the phase specified in their rules."  UH only wording is "that phase" does it  mean any phase when enemy unit ended it's charge within 9' from that unit or "that phase" is actually a chrage phase. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also maybe if Unleash Hell rules aren't specify it's phase maybe it shouldn't even work!!Here we go.We defeated UH boyz. Checkmate Luminets! 

 

Yep, 11.2 states that Unleash Hell is used "in the charge phase". 1.6.1 states that if the command ability doesnt specificy start or end of phase, then it is used "during" the phase. Since Ironsunz is used at the end of the phase, the opponent cant use Unleash Hell.  

 

[dnusha]

5 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Yep, 11.2 states that Unleash Hell is used "in the charge phase". 1.6.1 states that if the command ability doesnt specificy start or end of phase, then it is used "during" the phase. Since Ironsunz is used at the end of the phase, the opponent cant use Unleash Hell.  

 

Yeah i thought that much. I was just confused learning about UH into ironsunz ability (but not because it happens at the end of the phase but because i just forgot it's also a charge phase ) and started to think "and what if UH can get you in hero phase as well. " A rookie mistake.

[mrcamp1990]

Excuse me for the noob question. Do you think that MC SSB allows also to share all out attack and all out defense?

 

[dnusha]

50 minutes ago, mrcamp1990 said:

Excuse me for the noob question. Do you think that MC SSB allows also to share all out attack and all out defense?

 

From my understanding nothing prevents MBMK to issue an all-out command to three units. 

[Bobberto]

I could see the argument that "when a friendly unit is picked.... that unit must receive the command" could go either way. But since it doesn't say that unit exclusively must receive it, I'd argue that you can give it to three when you pick the first one.

[Kasper]

So my understanding is that once one of your units are picked to be attacked, you can issue this command ability to apply to them. 

I.e you have unit A, B and C - Your opponent activates and decides to attack unit B. This now allows the usage of All-out Defense and unit B must receive this command since it is the unit being targeted.

Meanwhile Skull-shaking Bellow allows you to issue a command to 3 units instead of only 1 unit. By applying it to A, B and C you are still fulfilling the requirement of the targeted unit receiving All-out Defense. There is essentially nothing stating another unit cant also receive it, just that the attacked unit must receive it.

 

I think its another one for the FAQ but I have been playing it this way.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Kasper

[5kaven5lave]

Pigs in 6s or 2x3 we reckon chaps?

[Kasper]

26 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Pigs in 6s or 2x3 we reckon chaps?

I think it depends on your plan with them and what the rest of your army looks like. Are they meant to be your main threat? Likely 6, if you have something else as the main threat, 2x3 IMO. 

6 are iffy to use though, but if you want to get gamey you can have 6 fighting all at once while keeping coherency.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Kasper

[5kaven5lave]

@Kasper Was probably gonna push them forwards as a main threat alongside MBoMK and Gobby in a BW list, have them ready to have Levitate cast on them turn 1 but probably no Warchanter buff for them. Would assess my opponent but could send them into a unit Gobby had debuffed first. Think ~5 MW with the hackas probably makes 6 worthwhile if I can position them correctly?

[Gothmaug]

FInally got a chance to run Ironjawz 3.0 yesterday against Daughters of Khaine. Fun game, so far i'm liking the changes in warscrolls and abilities. 

Tried choppas for fun. Brought along two warchanters, Foot Megaboss, Mawkrusha and allied in a fungoid cave shaman (because frankly his command point generation makes him better than a Weirdknob)

Had 3 min squads of brutes and 3 min squads of Aardboys to hold objectives

Warchanters using choppas ability gave +1 damage  to all three brutes and ardboy squads. 

Mawkrusha and two min squads of Pigs used triple MIghty destroyers to alpha striked up the board and engage the meat of opponents army. 

 Footboss with Megashouty used double mighty destrouers to advance unit of aardboys backed by brutes unit towards side objective.

 

Rest of army ran. Set 5 ardboys on objectives with 5 brutes backing them up to recieve charge from opponent. 2" reach brutes attacking over the ardboys were just tasty. 

Lots of fun, fighty list. Looking forward to playing around with the army more and seeing what other synergies are out there. The Megaboss Double or triple command targets is a wonderful ability. 

[Chase]

@PlasticCraic I just read your recent blog on kruelboys. I really liked Corey's take on the army. I was pretty uninterested in a gun line orruk army. This gave me hope for an army that's actually fun to play. 

https://plasticcraic.blog/2021/09/24/battletome-orruk-warclans-kruleboyz-with-corey-papinniemi/

Can you share anything about your upcoming IJ interview? Always looking forward to your write ups

[Andrew G]

Sorry if this has been discussed at length, but how are you all playing the Megaboss's ability to issue multiple command abilities in cases like all out attack/defense? Do I only need to meet the initial condition to use the command point (e.g A unit makes attack in the combat phase) and then I'm free to issue it two other units within range, or do the additional units picked also need to meet the trigger condition to receive the command point (which would exclude quite a few of the command abilities)?  I'm really unable to look at this objectively, so I'm just going to appeal to authority in both cases.   

One of the Facehammer guys who's a play tester specifically mentioned issuing all out attack and defense as an option, and I'd assume this came up as he was play testing IJ.  

Vince from Warhammer weekly has the opposite take, that it "just doesn't make sense" that you can ignore the eligibility condition for the additional units chosen to receive the command point. So, that means no all attack/defense, every unit that receives a redeploy needs to be within 9' of the enemy that finished their move, etc. 

I'm not looking for some type of proof(I've seen both sides rule lawyer this and really doesn't get anywhere), but just how you're playing it in the interim until the FAQ. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Andrew G

[swarmofseals]

Just a small thing to consider:

Rippa's Snarlfangs.

There is a lot of shooting in the meta, and this is the cheapest unit that you can use to draw unleash hell. If their shooting is away from where you are charging you can also use the 6" pile in to tag a shooting unit without charging and maybe waste a turn of their shots.

(crossposted in Bonesplitterz thread as it's also relevant there)

[dnusha]

46 minutes ago, Andrew G said:

Vince from Warhammer weekly has the opposite take, that it "just doesn't make sense" that you can ignore the eligibility condition for the additional units chosen to receive the command point. So, that means no all attack/defense, every unit that receives a redeploy needs to be within 9' of the enemy that finished their move, etc. 

I'm not looking for some type of proof(I've seen both sides rule lawyer this and really doesn't get anywhere), but just how you're playing it in the interim until the FAQ. 

I'm all for GW giving us FAQ for this issue but i for one gonna go with this.

[Boar]

4 hours ago, dnusha said:

I'm all for GW giving us FAQ for this issue but i for one gonna go with this.

But it does not appear to contradict core rule. It does not allow you to issue any command regardless of triggers. Just allows you to target more units when issuing command. And there is this bit that people seems to forget about:

[dnusha]

4 hours ago, Boar said:

But it does not appear to contradict core rule. It does not allow you to issue any command regardless of triggers. Just allows you to target more units when issuing command. And there is this bit that people seems to forget about:

Good point. I might be one of these people. By that logic we will only be able to use:

Mighty Destroyers  hero phase, apply to three friendly units one by one. Looks pretty straightforward.

Alright Get Em (ironsunz) (at the end of the enemy charge phase, if within 12' and more than in 3' from enemy units), No restrictions i guess, just have to be within 12' from any enemy units to charge them with 3 units.

Rally   hero phase (just pick 3 friendly units instead of one), 

Redeploy ( in the enemy movement phase enemy unit finished it's movement/retreat/run within 9' from our unit, if that enemy unit is also in 9' from 2 other friendly units we can issue a command on these 3 our units if there are no such units...only one our unit will recieve a command), 

Unleash Hell (same but with the charge, if our units do have a ranged weapon and enemy unit charged in 9'. three mawcrushas can do a triple roar into that enemy unit i guess (lol) (should also be farther than 3' from Other enemy units) . (gordrak can issue an UH command to 3 screwBOltguy units in BigW - this is going to hurt)), 

Inspiring Presence (at the start of the battleshock phase) no restrictions, just immunity from battleshock for 3 units

At The Double is questionable. (after you declare that a friendly unit will run) Can we declare that these three units gonna run?  Is this a modification without restriction? (Once you have moved the models in that unit, you can pick another friendly unit and declare that it will make a normal move, run or retreat, and so on, until as many units as you wish have either made a normal move, run or retreated.) 

Forward to Victory same as At The Double (after you make a charge roll for a friendly unit.) (You do not have to pick a target for a charge attempt before making the charge roll.) So can we declare three rolls for charges at once? Same question. (pick a friendly unit that is within 12" of an enemy unit to attempt a charge. You can then pick another friendly unit within 12" of an enemy unit to attempt a charge, and so on,)

All-out Attack (You can use this command ability when you pick a friendly unit to shoot in your shooting phase orfight in the combat phase) For me it's pretty simple, when you pick one unit to recieve a command you just pick 2 more units that are eligable to fight in this phase (12.1 A unit is eligible to fight if it is within 3" of an enemy unit and it has not fought in that phase, or if it made a charge move in the same turn and it has not fought in that phase.) These units are going to fight in this phase anyway. In shooting phase you just pick units to shoot. (they will shoot in this phase anyway, wording from MBMK "you can pick three instead of one")

All-out Defence Ok this is the trickiest one. (when a friendly unit is picked as the target of an attack in the
shooting or combat phase ) when multiple friendly units can be picked as a targets for attack or shooting at the same time? I guess that is when ONE unit splits their attacks? (13.2)  I guess in that case we can use All-out Defence on multiple units. In that case restrictions are in place.  (oh well, my dream of 24/7 +1 MK is ruined)

I guess we should wait for a FAQ just in case.

Edited September 25, 2021 by dnusha

[ccconner777]

As for issuing all out command or defense to multiple units with the mawkrusha, i had to reread it multiple times, and i could see it go either way in an faq, but i think it works. The trigger that allows you to issue the command is your megaboss being picked as a target or to attack, and his ability just allows you to make 3 units recieve commands when he issues a command, so theres no issue with triggering. His ability to issue the command only needs to be triggered once, then his ability allows him to issue it to 3 units. However, those command abilities specifically state that the unit picked must recieve the command (your mawkrusha in this case). The question is, does that caveat mean that is the only unit that can recieve it, or that that unit has to recieve it and if for some reason more units can recieve it then go ahead as long as this one is included. As written im inclined to say it works. The command ability doesnt say that unit is the only unit that can recieve this command, it says "that unit must recieve the command", which in my mind doesnt prevent others from recieving the command. Its only the core rules limit that issuing a command normally just affects 1 unit that prevents it from going to other units normally, but the mawkrusha gets aroumd that. Obviously needs an faq.

[Boar]

41 minutes ago, dnusha said:

All-out Attack (You can use this command ability when you pick a friendly unit to shoot in your shooting phase orfight in the combat phase) For me it's pretty simple, when you pick one unit to recieve a command you just pick 2 more units that are eligable to fight in this phase (12.1 A unit is eligible to fight if it is within 3" of an enemy unit and it has not fought in that phase, or if it made a charge move in the same turn and it has not fought in that phase.) These units are going to fight in this phase anyway. In shooting phase you just pick units to shoot. (they will shoot in this phase anyway, wording from MBMK "you can pick three instead of one")

When you pick unit to fight, fact that they will be eligible later in turn to fight does not matter, it's not mentioned at all - only being chosen to fight matters.

It will get resolved one way or another in FAQs

IMO you can use: Rally, Inspiring Presence, Unleash Hell (and book ones: Mighty Destroyers and Ironsunz one). Rest simply don't work with multiple targets at once as game sequencing (moving, charging, fighting one at time) result in situation where you can ever issue such CA to one unit.

Exception can happen with All Out Defense, as one enemy unit can indeed target multiple of yours in one activation and then you could use it to boost defense of attacked units.