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AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion


Chris Tomlin
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Just got my first game in with my new Bloodtoofs list against IDK. He deployed pretty far back so a huge alpha strike was not in the cards. I just sent in 1 unit of 3 gore gruntas and they successfully blew up his screen of 10 thralls and then charged in at end of combat and basically locked 80% of his army in combat on turn 1. They died spectacularly, of course, but VERY worth it.

gg charge.jpg

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6 minutes ago, TALegion said:

What are people's initial thoughts on Goregrunta's weapon options?

Losing the +1 to hit/wound on gorehackas when charging is big, but the new payoff is better mortal wounds on the charge.

I can see 6-man units in bloodtoofs preferring hackas now that you can re-charge after combat, but otherwise choppas are just dealing 33% more weapon damage than hackas. Is it as a simple as bloodtoofs prefer hackas and the other clans prefer choppas? Do 3-man units want the greater damage from choppas because it's less likely they'll wipe out a unit?

Choppas, every time. We're talking about the difference of 1 MW for a unit of 6 GGs between the weapon options vs. 33% more attacks which have scalable value when warchanter buffed or it's a Waaagh turn. 

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12 minutes ago, TALegion said:

What are people's initial thoughts on Goregrunta's weapon options?

Losing the +1 to hit/wound on gorehackas when charging is big, but the new payoff is better mortal wounds on the charge.

I can see 6-man units in bloodtoofs preferring hackas now that you can re-charge after combat, but otherwise choppas are just dealing 33% more weapon damage than hackas. Is it as a simple as bloodtoofs prefer hackas and the other clans prefer choppas? Do 3-man units want the greater damage from choppas because it's less likely they'll wipe out a unit?

I think choppas are almost strictly better.

Weighted offense rating (double charging/charging/not charging)

Choppas: .0868/.1156/.1444

Hackas: .075/.111/.147

Choppas +1damage: .1736/.2024/.2312

Hackas +1damage: .1499/.1859/.2219


Basically the only situation where hackas are better is when you don't have the warchanter buff and are double charging, and even than the difference is tiny.

 

EDIT: for 6 man squads you can make an argument for hackas based on the range, but I think 6 man grunta squads are a mistake anyway.

Edited by swarmofseals
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8 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

 

 

EDIT: for 6 man squads you can make an argument for hackas based on the range, but I think 6 man grunta squads are a mistake anyway.

Very hard disagree, there's a very easy to use formation that maintain coherency and allow all 6 to attack/charge/etc. 
There's only been probably 1 or 2 times since the coherency change where I had to sacrifice 1 GG not attacking because I couldn't maintain the formation and that was mostly due to proximity to terrain. 

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21 minutes ago, Andrew G said:

Very hard disagree, there's a very easy to use formation that maintain coherency and allow all 6 to attack/charge/etc. 
There's only been probably 1 or 2 times since the coherency change where I had to sacrifice 1 GG not attacking because I couldn't maintain the formation and that was mostly due to proximity to terrain. 

It's gotta be gore-hackas though right? Four across in the front and two in the back, so for the two models in the back only the riders can attack yes? If that's correct then you're looking at:

3.33 MW

8.44 r1 success

7.11 r0 success

vs.

2 MW

5.78 r1 success

5.33 r0 success


So 66% more mortals, 46% more r1, and 33% more r0 for double the points investment.

Doesn't seem great to me, although maybe against opponents with really hard screens it would be better?

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5 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

It's gotta be gore-hackas though right? Four across in the front and two in the back, so for the two models in the back only the riders can attack yes? If that's correct then you're looking at:

3.33 MW

8.44 r1 success

7.11 r0 success

vs.

2 MW

5.78 r1 success

5.33 r0 success


So 66% more mortals, 46% more r1, and 33% more r0 for double the points investment.

Doesn't seem great to me, although maybe against opponents with really hard screens it would be better?

I'm at work, so forgive the 10 second Microsoft paint job but this is how I move my goregruntas around and they always have choppas. When charging, I just place the 25mm bases touching my opponents and orient the GGs around it touching the 25mm bases. Depending on the enemy formation, you'll always have 5 to 6 attack with this method. 

Goregruntas.png

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Just now, swarmofseals said:

@Andrew G OK, that's rather clever! And I guess once they kill one you're no longer over 5 so you don't need to worry about coherency loss.

So I'll gladly concede my 6 gruntas bad! argument, but maintain my choppas are betta argument, which I think is only reinforced by your method.

Yea, with you 100%. Choppas all day, every day !

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I think one thing you are missing out on is the value of those impact mortal wounds occurring on the charge not during the combat phase. Charge phase mortals can bust holes in defensive lines/formations and there are some very dirty potential tricks.

This is especially true when you consider the mawkrusha destructive bulk+stomp combo. 1 extra mortal could be the reason your MK gets to punch through the line and get to stomp again.

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15 hours ago, SunStorm said:

Good to see the discussion now online is into the nitty gritty of how to use IJ effectively and a lot less of the complaining about the potential of IJ being sidelined in this new book. 

I'm excited to get my Brutes on the table, finish painting my 2nd MK and Gore-gruntas. I've even made a start on some new ardboy counts as, from the beastsnagga boyz. 

Happy times. 

 

Nitty gritty? Complaining?

I'm just pre-emptively upset at the number of 4+ Heroic Leadership rolls I am going to fail on my MBMK. Those CP's drive the army.

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18 minutes ago, Boggler said:

Nitty gritty? Complaining?

I'm just pre-emptively upset at the number of 4+ Heroic Leadership rolls I am going to fail on my MBMK. Those CP's drive the army.

Lol same. I can’t count the number of times where realistically all I can do is get a CP for heroic action and it fails. 

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4 hours ago, Malakree said:

I think one thing you are missing out on is the value of those impact mortal wounds occurring on the charge not during the combat phase. Charge phase mortals can bust holes in defensive lines/formations and there are some very dirty potential tricks.

This is especially true when you consider the mawkrusha destructive bulk+stomp combo. 1 extra mortal could be the reason your MK gets to punch through the line and get to stomp again.

All of this is correct, it's just that you are giving up 3 solid attacks for an extra half a mortal on average. You're more likely to get a second charge of you wipe the first unit, and the extra choppa attacks are more likely to get that done. If it was a 4+ trigger with hackas giving +2 I'd be more sympathetic.

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Watched a stream tonight and may I introduce to you the CHADLIEST wizard of all? 
it’s the maw krusha. What you may ask? 
take arcane tome. He becomes a wizard. So what you may say. So he can mystic shield? And sure. For the first turn it happens he gets stuck in. But he can’t fight his way out! 
 

The solution: foot of gork. 
 

But that’s casting value 10! How can you manage that? 
Take a look at the command trait for Ironjaw Wizards. We’re taking the first option. Do some mortal wounds and then get juiced. On the turn he’s stuck in and can’t leave. We can get some foot of gork with some buffs. Throw in a rogue idol or play big waaagh for some additional casts. Just stomped on that wizard on that arcane? It’s yours now. 
 

When it all goes right, you could have a +6 to cast. Foot of gork would go off on a 4+. Just smash your way out of combat with a giant foot. Then teach those peasants. 

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23 minutes ago, Carnith said:

Watched a stream tonight and may I introduce to you the CHADLIEST wizard of all? 
it’s the maw krusha. What you may ask? 
take arcane tome. He becomes a wizard. So what you may say. So he can mystic shield? And sure. For the first turn it happens he gets stuck in. But he can’t fight his way out! 
 

The solution: foot of gork. 
 

But that’s casting value 10! How can you manage that? 
Take a look at the command trait for Ironjaw Wizards. We’re taking the first option. Do some mortal wounds and then get juiced. On the turn he’s stuck in and can’t leave. We can get some foot of gork with some buffs. Throw in a rogue idol or play big waaagh for some additional casts. Just stomped on that wizard on that arcane? It’s yours now. 
 

When it all goes right, you could have a +6 to cast. Foot of gork would go off on a 4+. Just smash your way out of combat with a giant foot. Then teach those peasants. 

Meme-y, I love it.

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1 hour ago, Carnith said:

Watched a stream tonight and may I introduce to you the CHADLIEST wizard of all? 
it’s the maw krusha. What you may ask? 
take arcane tome. He becomes a wizard. So what you may say. So he can mystic shield? And sure. For the first turn it happens he gets stuck in. But he can’t fight his way out! 
 

The solution: foot of gork. 
 

But that’s casting value 10! How can you manage that? 
Take a look at the command trait for Ironjaw Wizards. We’re taking the first option. Do some mortal wounds and then get juiced. On the turn he’s stuck in and can’t leave. We can get some foot of gork with some buffs. Throw in a rogue idol or play big waaagh for some additional casts. Just stomped on that wizard on that arcane? It’s yours now. 
 

When it all goes right, you could have a +6 to cast. Foot of gork would go off on a 4+. Just smash your way out of combat with a giant foot. Then teach those peasants. 

Just don't run into the Archmage because the Aelven god of magic will reward your shenanigans with one arrogantly raised eyebrow and an ice-cold auto unbind.

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4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

All of this is correct, it's just that you are giving up 3 solid attacks for an extra half a mortal on average. You're more likely to get a second charge of you wipe the first unit, and the extra choppa attacks are more likely to get that done. If it was a 4+ trigger with hackas giving +2 I'd be more sympathetic.

Well if you take the gore hackas and charge a unit you get a mortal on a +2.

But the extra 3 attacks require a hit and a wound roll. With so few mortals for IJ i think it's going to be really useful with a GG heavy list. Especially MD across the field, charge into enemy units and mortals on +1 😁

It is IJ after all. If you aint smashin the enemy what are you doin??

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6 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

All of this is correct, it's just that you are giving up 3 solid attacks for an extra half a mortal on average. You're more likely to get a second charge of you wipe the first unit, and the extra choppa attacks are more likely to get that done. If it was a 4+ trigger with hackas giving +2 I'd be more sympathetic.

Personally I value mortal wounds quite highly especially given the current save environment. I also value damage which comes out in unusual phases, as it allows for shenanigans.

My point is that it's not as cut and dry as you are making it seem, especially in bloodtoofs armies with units of 6.

4 hours ago, Carnith said:

Take a look at the command trait for Ironjaw Wizards.

I considered the arcane cabbage mainly to be able to cast lifeswarm and then took foot because it's foot of gork. Did NOT consider the +cast command trait, That's awesome.

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5 hours ago, Malakree said:

Personally I value mortal wounds quite highly especially given the 

I considered the arcane cabbage mainly to be able to cast lifeswarm and then took foot because it's foot of gork. Did NOT consider the +cast command trait, That's awesome.

And a wizard MK having been buffed by warcha'ter and casting flaming weapon could be huge. 

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11 minutes ago, Bolty said:

And a wizard MK having been buffed by warcha'ter and casting flaming weapon could be huge. 

I think I'd rather just take the fast un +armour of gork combo if that's the alternative. 

Thus reason I might consider the foot of gork is the raw potential it gives. Anyone who used it preremoval has had those games where it decides the opponent doesn't need their stuff. Flaming weapon isn't in that league when you consider that the boss is now secondary to the mk fists. Something that's not true before the book release. 

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5 hours ago, Malakree said:

Personally I value mortal wounds quite highly especially given the current save environment. I also value damage which comes out in unusual phases, as it allows for shenanigans.

My point is that it's not as cut and dry as you are making it seem, especially in bloodtoofs armies with units of 6.

I considered the arcane cabbage mainly to be able to cast lifeswarm and then took foot because it's foot of gork. Did NOT consider the +cast command trait, That's awesome.

Sure, we'll see how it pans out in practice but I'm predicting  you'll see "competitive" IJ lists almost always go choppas.

The argument you're making basically boils down to a threshold argument, "1 extra MW in charge phase could be the difference between a MK charging again" which could be true, but you'll probably play a dozen games before it happens. There will probably be more games where one extra mw isn't the difference between charging again or being able to pile-in past a screen and the raw output would have been better. That, and like Seals mentioned, you can make the same threshold argument that higher output enables charge again shenanigans better than hackas in bloodtoofs as well. 

The gap between the two is relatively small, regardless, especially when looking at damage against 2+ save or turns GGs are not buffed. The choice of weapon doesn't impact how you're going to play the unit at all. So in the end... it probably doesn't matter which you pick. 

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But armour of gork is a trap artefact. Less movement and unit can't run in exchange for minor buffs. If it's MK (or any other hero) why would anyone want 6+ ward if you can have 5+ from amulet of destiny without any downsides. +1 to hit is not even that important if you have 3+.  And If you want +hit you can cast all out attack to re reroll 1 or debuff enemy unit with warchanters killa beat on 3+. (yeah CA seems easier). In Big Waagh +hit is not a problem either (BW buff and Trogg-with-a-cart)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Playing with the new rules on Thursday against Tzeentch. Here's the list I'm running. I think it's a pretty good starting list. First time using bigger blocks of Brutes. 3 drop, sneak in a free All out Attack because army is so CP heavy. Enough Goregruntas to do an alpha if opponent doesn't respect it but still bringing 2 blocks of -2 Rend Brutes to clean house on a Waaagh and All out Attack turn.  

Not sure how I want to run my Mawkrusha yet but I'm trying out a tanky one (+3 and amulet) with extra mortals on Stomp. 

Biggest question for you all is what Command Ability should I take? I kind of like the once per battle Waagh one to get rerolls for all your Brutes trying to charge, but I'm unsure. This army is CP heavy so I think giving your Mawkrusha free rerolls of charges is good and can act as a pseudo, free CP.

 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Grand Strategy: HOLD THE LINE (surviving battleline) 

LEADERS
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480) – BATTLE REGIMENT 
- General
- Command Trait: Battle-lust
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un

Orruk Warchanter (115) – BATTLE REGIMENT
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

Orruk Warchanter (115) – BATTLE REGIMENT
- Warbeat: Killa Beat

UNITS
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300) – BATTLE REGIMENT
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150) – BATTLE REGIMENT
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150) – BATTLE REGIMENT

10 x Orruk Brutes (320) – IRONJAWS FIST
- Jagged Gore-hackas, 1x Boss Choppa

10 x Orruk Brutes (320)   – IRONJAWS FIST
- Jagged Gore-hackas, 1x Boss Choppa

TOTAL: 1950/2000 WOUNDS: 147
 

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1 hour ago, dnusha said:

But armour of gork is a trap artefact. Less movement and unit can't run in exchange for minor buffs. If it's MK (or any other hero) why would anyone want 6+ ward if you can have 5+ from amulet of destiny without any downsides. +1 to hit is not even that important if you have 3+.  And If you want +hit you can cast all out attack to re reroll 1 or debuff enemy unit with warchanters killa beat on 3+. (yeah CA seems easier). In Big Waagh +hit is not a problem either (BW buff and Trogg-with-a-cart)

Because my first mawkrusha has the amulet of destiny 🤣 it means I get ward saves on both cabbages and can somewhat offset the move penalty with fast un.

Essentially if I'm running a cabbage it has amulet of destiny, thus it's only actually a question as to what do I take on my 2nd cabbage 😁

2 hours ago, Andrew G said:

The gap between the two is relatively small, regardless, especially when looking at damage against 2+ save or turns GGs are not buffed. The choice of weapon doesn't impact how you're going to play the unit at all. So in the end... it probably doesn't matter which you pick. 

This was actually my point, there are actually several upsides to the spears in terms of usability in 6s. Just because you can do the crazy formation in theory doesn't mean it can happen in games. There are always going to be choke points etc. Where what you're actually doing is gaining 6 attacks from the back row rather than 4 from the front. Combined with the bonus to impact mortals at 6s it's not strictly worse. Even in 3s I'd say it's only marginally worse.

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