AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Maogrim]

Sorry for the beginner's question, but is the Start Collecting a good way to get into Bloodtoofs or are Ardboyz just not worth it anymore or too slow or something?

[mrteige]

22 minutes ago, Maogrim said:

Sorry for the beginner's question, but is the Start Collecting a good way to get into Bloodtoofs or are Ardboyz just not worth it anymore or too slow or something?

Since there is only a 15$ difference between 3 gore gruntas an the start collecting box i would always buy start collecting boxes when i need gore gruntas. If you only need the gruntas you can sell off the rest

 

And i dont think ardboys are bad. they just serve a different purpose now. i am thinking of doing 3-4 units of 5 to get board control and camp objectives

Edited September 12, 2021 by mrteige

[Bruteforce]

42 minutes ago, Maogrim said:

Sorry for the beginner's question, but is the Start Collecting a good way to get into Bloodtoofs or are Ardboyz just not worth it anymore or too slow or something?

Start collecting will also give you a warchanter, and you're goin to need a few of these!

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Bruteforce said:

Groups of 10 with Megaboss extra -1 rend sounds like a nice way to stop some mega gargants

As cool as that sounds I would be worried about battleshock taking out half the unit

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

As cool as that sounds I would be worried about battleshock taking out half the unit

It's why the MB/MK being able to hit multiple targets with CA's is so important. You can use IP on 2/3 Brute units at once, we are guna be super CP hungry though.

EDIT:

13 hours ago, Boggler said:

I really didn't think that I'd need another 6 GG's after this book came out... I went hard in to Brutes this past Summer LOL. To round out my army a bit more. I have 18 GG's, do I really need another 6? probably?

I have them but it will be ages before I paint them up. Personally I aim for ~4 drops as it gives you the extra enhancement and allows for the 2nd mawkrusha. With that in mind you're probably looking at something like this instead

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
Orruk Warchanter (115)


Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)

Total: 1825/ 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 111
Drops: 4

Extra 1 (for the artefact) (2000 exactly)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)

Extra 2 (Triumph and all out alpha) (1975)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)

The 2nd mawkrusha means you can mighty destroyers 6 units a turn(!) which is conveniently a mawkrusha and 2 units of ggs. Plus the MK is just another huge threat on it's own. 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Malakree

[Holy_Diver]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

The 2nd mawkrusha means you can mighty destroyers 6 units a turn(!) which is conveniently a mawkrusha and 2 units of ggs. Plus the MK is just another huge threat on it's own. 

You can spam Mighty from another hero in the same phase?

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Holy_Diver said:

You can spam Mighty from another hero in the same phase?

There's a command trait which lets your general use Mighty Destroyers even if another hero has already used it that turn.

[Newtype_Zero]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

It's why the MB/MK being able to hit multiple targets with CA's is so important. You can use IP on 2/3 Brute units at once, we are guna be super CP hungry though.

EDIT:

I have them but it will be ages before I paint them up. Personally I aim for ~4 drops as it gives you the extra enhancement and allows for the 2nd mawkrusha. With that in mind you're probably looking at something like this instead

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
Orruk Warchanter (115)


Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)

Total: 1825/ 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 111
Drops: 4

Extra 1 (for the artefact) (2000 exactly)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)

Extra 2 (Triumph and all out alpha) (1975)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)

The 2nd mawkrusha means you can mighty destroyers 6 units a turn(!) which is conveniently a mawkrusha and 2 units of ggs. Plus the MK is just another huge threat on it's own. 

This is pretty much the list I had in mind. Do we know which weapon is the better option for GGs? I assume Hackas for the 6-mans and Choppas for the 3s? Or with the new Hacka rules, are those the go-to default now?

[Malakree]

4 minutes ago, Newtype_Zero said:

This is pretty much the list I had in mind. Do we know which weapon is the better option for GGs? I assume Hackas for the 6-mans and Choppas for the 3s? Or with the new Hacka rules, are those the go-to default now?

I think hackas "might" be better, definitely for larger blocks. It's really close though.

My main reason for the swing would be that the primary time you will use GG's now will be in bloodtoof armies and the end of combat phase charge means you get a second shot at the impact mortals, so having them on a 2+ is actually really hefty. You put the wc buff on an MK then use the gg impacts to try and blast a hole through your opponents line.

[Carnith]

Brutes list I came up with. It’s 2k on the dot. 
didn’t change equipment, but riptoof fist mawkrusha. The 15 man squads are wielding pole arms.

amulet on mawkrusha. Probably wizard book as a second artifact. All the units get shoved into hunters of the heartland.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Choppas
- Grand Strategy: 
- Triumphs: 
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Warchanter (120)
15 x Orruk Brutes (450)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- Reinforced x 2
15 x Orruk Brutes (450)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- Reinforced x 2
5 x Orruk Brutes (150)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 152
Drops: 8
 

[Malakithe]

53 minutes ago, Carnith said:

Brutes list I came up with. It’s 2k on the dot. 
didn’t change equipment, but riptoof fist mawkrusha. The 15 man squads are wielding pole arms.

amulet on mawkrusha. Probably wizard book as a second artifact. All the units get shoved into hunters of the heartland.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Choppas
- Grand Strategy: 
- Triumphs: 
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Warchanter (120)
15 x Orruk Brutes (450)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- Reinforced x 2
15 x Orruk Brutes (450)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- Reinforced x 2
5 x Orruk Brutes (150)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 152
Drops: 8
 

Im liking this big Brute energy

[Boggler]

1 hour ago, Carnith said:

Brutes list I came up with. It’s 2k on the dot. 

I think you're at 2025 pts. Can you sub the Ardboys for Ironskulls and Morgok's to fit them in?

[Maogrim]

So, do you guys think that a Bloodtoofs list can compete with Stormdrake lists in terms of speed, power and resilience? 

Those dragon things look crazy good for their points.

[Carnith]

48 minutes ago, Boggler said:

I think you're at 2025 pts. Can you sub the Ardboys for Ironskulls and Morgok's to fit them in?

Mawkrusha is down 15, warchanters down 5, ardboyz down 10 each while Brutes up 10. In modern points its

Maw Krusha 480
Warchanter 115
Warchanter 115
15 brutes 480
15 brutes 480
5 brutes 160
ard boyz 85
Ard boyz 85

Comes to 2000 on the nose. 

[5kaven5lave]

Think my first foray is going to be mostly ‘Jawz but with some Kruleboyz shooting and some debuff magic from the Vulture, see if it makes any impact as a Big Waaagh!!

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Maogrim said:

So, do you guys think that a Bloodtoofs list can compete with Stormdrake lists in terms of speed, power and resilience? 

Those dragon things look crazy good for their points.

Personally I think a proper bloodtoof list is going to be nuts atm. Your ability to get across the board and tie down the enemy in the first turn is insane, he pure utility granted by the bloodtoof trait is nuts.

The general strategy you will be aiming for is to seize control of the board and lock your opponent off the objectives using the after combat move. It also helps how ridiculously wound efficient gg's are now.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders - 485
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Warchanter (115)

Battleline - 1500
9 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (450)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 2
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 1985 / 2000 (was 2220)
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Wounds: 175
Drops: 10

If you go for a really heavy gg list, this is 30 of them, you're putting a metric ton of highly mobile wounds on the board which can redeploy after the combat phase. It's bonkers the amount of space control you can manage.

EDIT:

5 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Think my first foray is going to be mostly ‘Jawz but with some Kruleboyz shooting and some debuff magic from the Vulture, see if it makes any impact as a Big Waaagh!!

Imo the IJ is probably the weakest part of the book with kruleboyz being the strongest. That said there is definitely some power in the IJ (at least 4-1 on multiple lists) and it's not that extreme. 

Note: The new Megaboss warscrolls all have the TOTEM keyword, which means they can use CA's at an 18" range regardless of being the general.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Malakree

[swarmofseals]

2 hours ago, Maogrim said:

So, do you guys think that a Bloodtoofs list can compete with Stormdrake lists in terms of speed, power and resilience? 

Those dragon things look crazy good for their points.

 

If you are talking about a head to head matchup it's hard to predict. I think stormdrake spam will be pretty annoying for Ironjawz mostly because they will be very good at picking off warchanters.

That said I think people are overestimating stormdrakes a bit. Their damage per point isn't that great. They are definitely good and will probably see a lot of play, but people are treating them like the second coming and I don't quite buy that.

2 Stormdrake Guard have a weighted offensive efficiency of .0663 in melee and .0278 at range and a weighted defensive efficiency of .1421.

3 Orruk Gore-Gruntas with Brute Choppas buffed by a warchanter have a weighted offensive efficiency of .1657 when not charging, .1945 when charging and a weighted defensive efficiency of .1625.

The initial charge from buffed gore-gruntas will hit MUCH harder per point than stormdrakes.

One other thing that I don't see many people consider with the stormdrakes is that they are 9 wound monsters. Taking a bunch of them is basically handing your opponent quite a few VP.

I could be wrong though.

 

[Maogrim]

23 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Personally I think a proper bloodtoof list is going to be nuts atm. Your ability to get across the board and tie down the enemy in the first turn is insane, he pure utility granted by the bloodtoof trait is nuts.

The general strategy you will be aiming for is to seize control of the board and lock your opponent off the objectives using the after combat move. It also helps how ridiculously wound efficient gg's are now.

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders - 485
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Warchanter (115)

Battleline - 1500
9 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (450)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 2
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 1985 / 2000 (was 2220)
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Wounds: 175
Drops: 10

If you go for a really heavy gg list, this is 30 of them, you're putting a metric ton of highly mobile wounds on the board which can redeploy after the combat phase. It's bonkers the amount of space control you can manage.

EDIT:

Imo the IJ is probably the weakest part of the book with kruleboyz being the strongest. That said there is definitely some power in the IJ (at least 4-1 on multiple lists) and it's not that extreme. 

Note: The new Megaboss warscrolls all have the TOTEM keyword, which means they can use CA's at an 18" range regardless of being the general.

Thank you for the list, but with all due respect... who has the money to spare for 30 Goregruntas? 😂 

A fresh box of three is around 60€ in continental money.

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Maogrim said:

Thank you for the list, but with all due respect... who has the money to spare for 30 Goregruntas? 😂 

A fresh box of three is around 60€ in continental money.

No Comment...

21 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

One other thing that I don't see many people consider with the stormdrakes is that they are 9 wound monsters. Taking a bunch of them is basically handing your opponent quite a few VP.

Mass monster spam both scores heavily (due to all the extra do x with monsters) but also bleeds vps heavily.

[Boggler]

4 hours ago, Carnith said:

Total: 1975 / 2000

Ya! I'm dumb and didn't read the total so I though it was over 25 pts!

Again, I didn't think I would be coming out of this book needing both more Brutes and more GG's. Not to mention my lack of interest in getting another MBMK too! For the money needed to round out my collection I would be 1/3 of the way towards completing an army in an actual S tier faction.

Seriously. I have 50 Ardboys. The max I could ever use is 30.

1 MBMK, 1 Warboss,

15 Brutes, 5 dual, 10 2HW

18GG's - magnetized

All painted. Lots of conversions etc, Not painted in Bloodtoofs colours so I guess I can't use them as Bloodtoofs in an official GW tournament or in their stores. lol...

The start collecting box really starts to lose value after the 3rd.

I wonder why they didn't make Ardboys 160pts for 10. Would that make them too strong? Would 20 Ardboys for 320pts and ONE reinforcement point be too strong?

[Carnith]

I like them at 5 a piece. I personally do not like ardboyz as they don't fit our aesthetic of the army. They look old. They are fine to be back of the board objective holders. Or they just run to objectives. Brutes and the mawkrusha are meant to be the core stomping of the army. 

[Malakree]

@Boggler @Carnith

I think the big thing about ardboys is they are now solid points per wound and a pita for people to shift. There was a really dappy which was a foot hero or two then just the rest as ardboys. Throw insane wound potential out onto the board and force your opponent to deal with it. Probably runs a weirdnob with the +cast ability with a unit of 15 to try and dump into your opponents deployment zone turn 1. Only issue I could see is not having the dps for the gargants. 

Imo all the units now have their strengths and place which is nice. I do think if you're looking to hard invest I'd recommend the kruleboyz. Not least because it opens up big Waaagh for you to mix and match, an MK is a really solid choice for big Waaagh atm due to his CA duplication.

[Spiky Norman]

If you're seeing a value in +cast and others have pointed to the lower bravery, then is the Rogue Idol still worth considering since it provides both +1 Bravery and +1 to Cast, as well as some decent damage potential with it's 12 -2 rend attacks?

It's 430 though, and almost in competition with a Mawkrusha.

[swarmofseals]

19 minutes ago, Spiky Norman said:

If you're seeing a value in +cast and others have pointed to the lower bravery, then is the Rogue Idol still worth considering since it provides both +1 Bravery and +1 to Cast, as well as some decent damage potential with it's 12 -2 rend attacks?

It's 430 though, and almost in competition with a Mawkrusha.

I think probably not worth it in IJ but I do like it in Bonesplitterz. Being able to Inspiring Presence multiple targets is really helpful in mitigating bravery problems.

1 hour ago, Boggler said:

I wonder why they didn't make Ardboys 160pts for 10. Would that make them too strong? Would 20 Ardboys for 320pts and ONE reinforcement point be too strong?

Probably because of the rally ability. A block of 30 rallying on 4+ every turn would be a pretty big NPE I think. Another consideration is the SC box coming with 15, making units of 10 awkward. I think GW is trying to make sure any box can be legally used in its entirety without any other purchases.

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

Note: The new Megaboss warscrolls all have the TOTEM keyword, which means they can use CA's at an 18" range regardless of being the general.

This is a good catch and makes taking a maw krusha without making it the general more viable. Touched by the Waaagh! is great compared to the CA options for a megaboss, but making your general a weirdnob is kinda dicey given how much you need those CP to keep rolling in. Definitely torn on this one.

[Holy_Diver]

1 hour ago, Spiky Norman said:

If you're seeing a value in +cast and others have pointed to the lower bravery, then is the Rogue Idol still worth considering since it provides both +1 Bravery and +1 to Cast, as well as some decent damage potential with it's 12 -2 rend attacks?

It's 430 though, and almost in competition with a Mawkrusha.

Pebble in Big Waagh! takes all the 3 orruk warclans traits 😏