AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Malakree]

12 minutes ago, Jgroover said:

How did you get 8 waaagh rolls with 3 command points?

Aetherquartz Broach. Whenever you spend a CP you get it back on a 5+

So I had 4 and kept using the Waaagh! till I had 1 left. End result was 8 Waaagh!

[PlasticCraic]

@Malakree glad to hear it works so well!  About time we had something a bit bent!

Can I ask what your opponents were?  Was there any "unkillable" stuff you went up against (2+ RR1s), and if so how did that go?  I guess because you went first, most stuff wouldn't have the buffs off, which helps a lot!  Would you still bounce off a Staunch SC army?

[LewDog]

Hello guy's I'm having a debate on Facebook about how the waaagh command ability is played,the rule says that you count up the models in the combat phase of the turn,I was always under the impression that you use command abilities in your turn so the rule only last for your turn,they seem to believe that it can be used in your turn and your opponents turn,I know that in last edition that the case was you use yourcommand ability and it last only for that turn but they are telling me that in this edition you can use a command point in your opponents turn to activate the command ability??????

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

@Malakree glad to hear it works so well!  About time we had something a bit bent!

Can I ask what your opponents were?  Was there any "unkillable" stuff you went up against (2+ RR1s), and if so how did that go?  I guess because you went first, most stuff wouldn't have the buffs off, which helps a lot!  Would you still bounce off a Staunch SC army?

I faced one stardrake and should have taken first turn but didn't. I also deployed wrong and got punished.

He didn't lantern his sc first turn so it was 2rr1 despite that 5 brutes took off 10 wounds. If I'd gotten the other 5 in it probably would have killed it.

I'm tempted to say prophet of the waaagh! Is better than ironclad for the list, you make so many rolls that fishing for the extra attacks is great.

Edit: @LewDog you use it in your hero phase. It then activates in your combat phase.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Malakree

[PlasticCraic]

Love it!  And that's a really good point on the Prophet, I hadn't thought of that.

Question on the Brutes, what's your delivery mechanism?  Are you giving them the 4+ (6+) Hero Phase move if  you get it?  

[LewDog]

25 minutes ago, Malakree said:

 @LewDog you use it in your hero phase. It then activates in your combat phase.

It's the other bit that were debating about,I say you can't use it in your opponents phase but they reckon you now can in 2.0 by burning a command point?

[sporadicMike]

15 minutes ago, LewDog said:

It's the other bit that were debating about,I say you can't use it in your opponents phase but they reckon you now can in 2.0 by burning a command point?

So this all stemmed from a discussion on the IJ whatsApp group. I also felt it was in your own hero phase. But better players than me convinced me it could be interpreted both ways. 

As such I posed the question to the organizer at Midwest Meltdown. I was lucky enough to have him decide it could be used at the start of any combat phase.  By no means am official ruling outside that tournament. Another tournament with another TO and it could be different.  Just sharing my own experience. 

This was very helpful to me throughout the games. Turn one I got charged by a VLOZD he killed a couple brutes  and my war boss on boar. However, I was able to attack back with +1 attacks and finish him off. 

Not to mention the fact you are now  able to wait and see how many charges you get off before deciding whether or not to spend the command point. 

 

Btw, sword of judgement on a mega boss with +4 attacks from Waaagghhh! and +2 to hit is amazing! Every boss needs  to experience this sensation at least once. 

[broche]

Waagh is just in your hero phase. There's no interpretation here. It doesn't say in wich phase you use it, so default is your hero phase from core rule.

The unit count/dice roll then occur in the next combat phase (on your turn)

[sporadicMike]

10 minutes ago, broche said:

Waagh is just in your hero phase. There's no interpretation here. It doesn't say in wich phase you use it, so default is your hero phase from core rule.

The unit count/dice roll then occur in the next combat phase (on your turn)

It says at the start of the combat phase of the turn. Not your turn, the turn. 

I know others  have been sent emails to faq so we can only hope for a clear ruling at some point. 

I can say this not a single opponent complained about this interpretation. Command point was spent, attacks were made, and that was that. Not like it lasted till my next hero phase. 

[broche]

the core rules command ability specify clearly when to use it (after you make a run, charge or at beginning of the battleshock phase).

Waaagh speficy when the effect trigger (start of the combat phase).  Since it doesn't state when to use it, you use it in your hero phase.

[Ravinsild]

9 hours ago, Malakree said:

In case anyone was wondering

In the latest FAQs. It's now official that a single Megaboss can Waaagh! until you run out of CP's.

It was nice to actually have defences against spells while it lasted.

This is well needed!

So we are back to rotating around units using the same pre-AoS2 movements and pinning now happens with two models not one.

Overall

1. Really sad about the loss of the Lens of Refraction. Especially since Aetherquatz Broach is still close to mandatory for a lot of our lists. (more on that below)
2. Geminids we OP and thankfully they can no longer stack both Debuffs on us. Still sucks in combination with some of the other wizards though.
3. The pile in ruling is god awful, it has in a lot of ways just reinstated the previous editions rules. There are differences but not sizeable.
4. Multi-Waaagh! is disgusting although further consideration is given down below as to why it might be fine.

Multi-Waaagh!

So I used a list with this in at the throne of skulls tournament over the weekend and it's filth, I didn't expect it to be anywhere near as much filth as it actually is but it's just disgusting. Using Bloodtoofs you generally get to pick if you want turn 1 then casting Cogs gives you such a giant threat range. I'd say this build is really strong and the opponent HAS to move to counter it or you will really wreck them. Despite this, after consideration, I'm actually inclined to agree that it's not broken. Very strong, but not broken. If you do go off then it's one turns worth of huge explosive unstoppable power, or you can stagger it out to get several turns of powerful but not overwhelming strength.

The problem is that the Aetherquartz Broach exists.

In my final game, we ended up squaring up for a turn before I actually committed so I had 4 command points. I decided to keep my final CP back after I had spent 3 to get 8 Waaagh! running on my megaboss. My thought was "I can keep going and get at least 1 more attack but I'm not sure it matters" as it turns out it would have done if he had won priority turn 3 but even then I was going first so I had the wins doubles advantage. I rolled one 6 out of my 8 dice and got 9 extra attacks with my entire army. On my first command point I got 4 Waaagh! running. That means with no battalions the Broach would have given me a free 3, it is such a horrific artefact for us that it's mandatory for every Ironjawz army that's even thinking about using the Waaagh.

My unit of 3 pigs then proceeded to kill 31 skeletons despite a 5+(4+ vs no rend) save followed by 6++, 6++ against the individual wounds. Earlier in the tournament I killed 27 skeletons with them in a single turn with him having 6(5)+ rerolling 1s as his save. 

The smallest number of additional attacks I got out of my Waaagh! turn was 5 and I held a command point back in most games in case I needed to reroll a key failed charge. 

With the state of the game as it is right now as long as you aren't terrible, like me, Ironjawz are easily T1. Unless your opponent makes some very serious considerations with regards to countering what we are doing with screening AND giving up board position you can essentially remove them from the board T1 or T2.

Long story short, the Broach is Overpowered as all sin and mandatory for us until it's nerfed.

What... exactly are we doing with screening? I’ve been under the impression that “Ardboys are dead” so we just run brutes and GG? 

[Ravinsild]

3 hours ago, sporadicMike said:

So this all stemmed from a discussion on the IJ whatsApp group. I also felt it was in your own hero phase. But better players than me convinced me it could be interpreted both ways. 

As such I posed the question to the organizer at Midwest Meltdown. I was lucky enough to have him decide it could be used at the start of any combat phase.  By no means am official ruling outside that tournament. Another tournament with another TO and it could be different.  Just sharing my own experience. 

This was very helpful to me throughout the games. Turn one I got charged by a VLOZD he killed a couple brutes  and my war boss on boar. However, I was able to attack back with +1 attacks and finish him off. 

Not to mention the fact you are now  able to wait and see how many charges you get off before deciding whether or not to spend the command point. 

 

Btw, sword of judgement on a mega boss with +4 attacks from Waaagghhh! and +2 to hit is amazing! Every boss needs  to experience this sensation at least once. 

Sigh. You use Waaagh! In the hero phase. Your own hero phase. 

Then when the combat phase happen that is when you count how many models are within X” of whichever Megaboss used it and roll from there. 

You do not spend a command point in the combat phase to activate it. It’s always a gamble if you spread your units out too far in the combat phase and make it really hard to Waaagh! It takes for-sight and planning ahead and no you cannot use your command abilities in your opponents hero phase or in the combat phase (yours or theirs). 

[Malakree]

4 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

What... exactly are we doing with screening? I’ve been under the impression that “Ardboys are dead” so we just run brutes and GG? 

Sorry it's that the opponent has to both screen you AND give up board position.

[Imperial]

Uh. It's was nice FAQ!

My list for next game:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Artefact: Spellmirror 
- Allies

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies

Battalions
Gorefist (190)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1930 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 260 / 400
Wounds: 120

[Imperial]

Any one know why builder allow to take 1 allies unit per 1 main unit? Some changes was made about it? 

[Davros]

39 minutes ago, Imperial said:

Uh. It's was nice FAQ!

My list for next game:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Artefact: Spellmirror 
- Allies

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
- Allies

Battalions
Gorefist (190)

Endless Spells
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 1930 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 260 / 400
Wounds: 120

Looks good, but i would either find a way for a second spear chuka (they are so much better with a second one) or just drop it and change your MBMK for Goddrack, That would be a better use of the gorefist.

I think the 140 points you have tied up in the spear chuka as it is, is wasted and could be used better in nearly any way, 3 more gruntas would also be fine.

[Imperial]

1 minute ago, Davros said:

Looks good, but i would either find a way for a second spear chuka (they are so much better with a second one) or just drop it and change your MBMK for Goddrack, That would be a better use of the gorefist.

 I think the 140 points you have tied up in the spear chuka as it is, is wasted and could be used better in nearly any way, 3 more gruntas would also be fine.

I tryed last time with Goddrack. 2 GG with +2 hit and charge from 8" left Alariel 3 wound

Second chuka dont fit because of allies restriction (1 unit per 4 in main list) and orruk warboss with banner to good for many attacks from GG. 

[Malakree]

40 minutes ago, Imperial said:

I tryed last time with Goddrack. 2 GG with +2 hit and charge from 8" left Alariel 3 wound

Second chuka dont fit because of allies restriction (1 unit per 4 in main list) and orruk warboss with banner to good for many attacks from GG. 

Drop it and take 3 more pigs if you can.

[Imperial]

3 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Drop it and take 3 more pigs if you can.

I can, but for this time i want test 1 chuka for deal some damage to heroes or clean some block. Too easy for enemy set up 3-5 cheap units before main force and we cant do nothing with this.

[broche]

little off but speaking of chukka, it's disapointing that they did not update warscroll, i was under the impression that warmachine where gonna be merge into single profile warscroll (like the one from stormcast)

[Ravinsild]

5 hours ago, Malakree said:

Sorry it's that the opponent has to both screen you AND give up board position.

Aaah I see. I’ve got a few Bloodtoofs lists I’m looking forward to running myself. 

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, broche said:

little off but speaking of chukka, it's disapointing that they did not update warscroll, i was under the impression that warmachine where gonna be merge into single profile warscroll (like the one from stormcast)

I would not expect any big changes like that until we get new books for things.  I highly doubt that Gitmob will get a book any time soon, but it might happen if GW decides to create a Legions of Nagash style book for destruction at some point.  If that happens I would expect there to be some warscroll rewrites and adjustments in that book and that is where I think they would adjust the warmachines into a single profile.

[Skabnoze]

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

Sorry it's that the opponent has to both screen you AND give up board position.

I am not sure that someone will have to give up too much if they are primarily screening against an alpha-strike.  People adapted to that in 40k pretty quickly when turn-1 deep strike was a major tactic.  I expect that screening will be fairly important in AoS with multiple armies having the ability to leap across the table on turn-1 and drop killer command-point combos to initially cripple an opponent.  The best tactic against that will be cheap screening units and I think we will start to see that concept morph into a number of lists.  Ironjawz have one of the most potent combo alpha-strike punches, but they are not the only one that can do it now.

 

[Ravinsild]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

I am not sure that someone will have to give up too much if they are primarily screening against an alpha-strike.  People adapted to that in 40k pretty quickly when turn-1 deep strike was a major tactic.  I expect that screening will be fairly important in AoS with multiple armies having the ability to leap across the table on turn-1 and drop killer command-point combos to initially cripple an opponent.  The best tactic against that will be cheap screening units and I think we will start to see that concept morph into a number of lists.  Ironjawz have one of the most potent combo alpha-strike punches, but they are not the only one that can do it now.

 

They would need to adequately space out their screens and really ensure no units behind said screen are within 3”. 

All it takes is one souped up GG unit to smash into that screen, especially if you do the whole Congo line across the board thing and use 1 unit for screening, to delete that unit and then smashing and bashing right on into their main force. 

[Skabnoze]

8 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

They would need to adequately space out their screens and really ensure no units behind said screen are within 3”. 

All it takes is one souped up GG unit to smash into that screen, especially if you do the whole Congo line across the board thing and use 1 unit for screening, to delete that unit and then smashing and bashing right on into their main force. 

This is assuming that someone has one big screen rather than a layer of smaller units.  For example, a couple cheap units such as skinks or greenskin orcs.

But again, I think people will move towards tactics to mitigate the issue of getting punched in the face on the first turn.