AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Bululu]

Yeah, specially because brute models are amazing. I will allways play a 5-10 man squad just for the looks of it. But yeah they are like 70% optimized versus a ardboyz equivalent. They are not useless by any means, but they are substancially behind gore gruntas and ardboyz. Hopefully they will get fixed on points on next GHB.

[Vasshpit]

Hoping it's not points but warscroll that is fixed. They were unnesasaraly nerfed into a boring unit along with footboss. 

For models that have some of the largest physically plastic weapons in the game it's ridiculous to have lost -2 rend. 

 

But hey, everything in their start collecting got buffed... 🤔. Sales must of been slow....

 

I've said it before but I wish GW would have dropped Ardboyz all together when Ironjawz first dropped. 

Oh well. Maybe love will come with that rumored order vs destro campaign book. 😕

Edited May 18, 2020 by Vasshpit

[NauticalSoup]

11 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

For models that have some of the largest physically plastic weapons in the game it's ridiculous to have lost -2 rend. 

-2 rend and probably a warscroll ability that synergizes with attacking those high armour targets. Also they should be bravery 7. And with all that they probably still need a discount because they're still too slow and squishy. Anti-armour would at least give them a niche though.

Don't agree about Ardboys tho, Ironjawz have too few models as it is and I love black orks. Either you introduce a new cheap unit to fill their exact same roll or just keep a unit lots of people have been attached to since the earliest days of WHFB.

Edited May 18, 2020 by NauticalSoup

[PlasticCraic]

I agree @NauticalSoup, I hope Ardboyz are going nowhere. 

They and GGs are both good at what they do, it's Brutes that are the odd one out.  Their bravery is a joke and has been for years, it's not good enough that it was left at 6.  

They are too slow and if they do get there, they don't do anything special.  To make up for all their downsides, they should have hit like a truck when they arrived, so they had a niche as the hard-hittinest unit. 

Brutes needed heavy rend, and / or mortal wounds, and / or a rabbit pulled out of the hat with something unique.  Instead they lost all the flavour of the Klaw and the heavy rend, and all that was left was just Generic Combat Unit. 

What a waste.

[Lanoss]

IMO for a warscroll fix

Brutes - bravery 7, 6s to wound are -2

Megaboss on foot - Ability: Instead of rolling for battleshock, a unit within 3”/6” suffers d3 mortals as the Megaboss knocks some sense into them

Let me know if that’s too much... 

[Vasshpit]

2 hours ago, Lanoss said:

Megaboss on foot - Ability: Instead of rolling for battleshock, a unit within 3”/6” suffers d3 mortals as the Megaboss knocks some sense into them

Let me know if that’s too much... 

I think just a straight bravery buff would be better. Something like all units wholly within 12" use this models bravery. 

This puts them on even ground with Ardboyz on the bravery front. It makes no sense for them not to be. (And actually kinda goes against fluff)

I don't see the strategic or fun point in said units taking wounds. 

Also love to see them able to be equipped in any way player chooses. this wouldn't be outrageous I don't think. 

[Vasshpit]

Annnnnd if we're wish listing I'd be a very happy general if battalion big bosses received access to artifacts. 

🤘💀🤘

[Ganigumo]

If we're looking to make brutes better I would love to see them get +1 damage somehow. A lot of models on 40mm bases have at least 2 damage for their primary attack (Ogors, trolls, Tzaangor enlightened, etc) it would probably come with a point increase though. I like the idea since it makes the warchanter less of a necessity for Brutes.

 

Also what is the opinion on Bloodtoofs? I've been painting up a list but I'm not sure if I should go Bloodtoofs for the +1 charge and autocasting hand of gork, or go with no clan and a wierdnob to free up an artifact and get a useful command trait.

My List:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Get Da Realmgate
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- Artefact: Quickduff Amulet
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
15 x Orruk Brutes (420)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 3x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
Aleguzzler Gargant (160)
- Allies
Ironfist (160)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 160 / 400
Wounds: 136
 

[PlasticCraic]

You make an interesting point on the Quickduff Amulet @Ganigumo

Bloodtoofs haven't been super popular competitively, but with the +cast +unbind arms race, it might be worth a second look to have that guaranteed teleport.

Shame the Command Trait is such a tax.

Don't forget your Mount Trait.  If you take Weird Un, that gives you access to ignore magic on a 4+ which removes a lot of the logic for taking Ignax Scales, in turn freeing you up to take Ethereal Amulet.

I'd also advise a second unit of Gore Gruntas over a Gargant at the same points every time, unless you're looking at Rule of Cool and you like em, in which case go for it!

[Ganigumo]

8 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

You make an interesting point on the Quickduff Amulet @Ganigumo

Bloodtoofs haven't been super popular competitively, but with the +cast +unbind arms race, it might be worth a second look to have that guaranteed teleport.

Shame the Command Trait is such a tax.

Don't forget your Mount Trait.  If you take Weird Un, that gives you access to ignore magic on a 4+ which removes a lot of the logic for taking Ignax Scales, in turn freeing you up to take Ethereal Amulet.

I'd also advise a second unit of Gore Gruntas over a Gargant at the same points every time, unless you're looking at Rule of Cool and you like em, in which case go for it!

The Gargant is mostly filler at the moment, but I've already got it painted. I'll probably swap it out once I get some more Gore Gruntas painted.

 

My reason for playing ignax's scales is that there's a lot of khorne in my playgroup and Wierd 'un doesn't help against Prayers so I'm wondering if that gives more durability than ethereal amulet in that scenario.

[Shmaravoz]

New BatReport Nagash (PetroGash Elit) vs IronJawz!

 

[Jackroks981]

I like brutes too, they look one million times better than ardboys which is way I run them, I don’t think they’re unplayable at all and I have lots of success with them. However I’m also aware that this is the internet and apparently I’m not allowed to say I like brutes. 

[Ganigumo]

2 hours ago, Jackroks981 said:

I like brutes too, they look one million times better than ardboys which is way I run them, I don’t think they’re unplayable at all and I have lots of success with them. However I’m also aware that this is the internet and apparently I’m not allowed to say I like brutes. 

Yeah I love brutes too, but the issue is that they are too similar in function to Ardboyz. Same save, similar attack profile, similar points to wound ratio.

The game as it is now favors big hordes though, and generally the 'ardboyz +2 to charge, bravery bonus, and shields are more useful than the Brutes +1 to hit against 4+ wound models and Gore Hacka. But IMO its a pretty close comparison. If it werent for the +2 charge bonus I would probably leave them at home too.

 

Its a bit surprising that a faction with 3 units has 2 that are nearly identical in role and strength. I don't think brutes need buffs, but certainly they need to differentiate 'Ardboyz and Brutes more.

[PlasticCraic]

5 hours ago, Jackroks981 said:

I like brutes too, they look one million times better than ardboys which is way I run them, I don’t think they’re unplayable at all and I have lots of success with them. However I’m also aware that this is the internet and apparently I’m not allowed to say I like brutes. 

Haha not at all mate.  Despite my comments on Brutes above I don't think there's that much in it.  

My problem with Brutes is not that they are awful (they aren't), it's that they have nothing unique to hang their hat on.

It's not so much that there's some huge gulf between them and Ardboyz, it's morseo that they aren't different enough for my liking.  You just end up with more attacks on an identical melee profile, but slower, less brave and worse at capping objectives.

If you do really like them, it's close enough that you can make it work.  I'll personally take some convincing to give up that +2" to charge though.

[PlasticCraic]

8 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

My reason for playing ignax's scales is that there's a lot of khorne in my playgroup and Wierd 'un doesn't help against Prayers so I'm wondering if that gives more durability than ethereal amulet in that scenario.

Fair enough, maybe that works better in your meta.  Khorne can kick out a few mortals for sure.

Have you got your eyes on a particular Mount Trait then?

[Ganigumo]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

Fair enough, maybe that works better in your meta.  Khorne can kick out a few mortals for sure.

Have you got your eyes on a particular Mount Trait then?

Probably Mean 'Un for the bonus damage. I could go fast 'un, but if I really want the maw Krusha somewhere i can probably afford to use a CP on Mighty Destroyers.

 

Although Ignax's scales + Wierd Un would make him nearly invulnerable against magic if I need that much defemse.

[NauticalSoup]

9 hours ago, Jackroks981 said:

I like brutes too, they look one million times better than ardboys which is way I run them, I don’t think they’re unplayable at all and I have lots of success with them. However I’m also aware that this is the internet and apparently I’m not allowed to say I like brutes. 

You are free to have this opinion, but "I don't think they're unplayable and I like them" isn't a very compelling case for them being a good unit or why you should consider using them over the other available options.

Nobody's forcing you to use Ardboys. Even if Brutes were objectively the worst unit in the entire game you're free to use them if you want to. That doesn't make them a good option though.

[Bululu]

Brutes are an OK option, just not as good as ardboyz. Ofc i would like to see a warscroll fix but that is out of GHB range of action so we will probably just see a small point drop or nothing at all.

[TALegion]

@Ganigumo For what it's worth, I think Bloodtoo's might actually have the best use case for taking Metalrippa's Klaw as an artefact. Because their CP ability relies on wiping a unit a combat, Mean Un + Metalrippa's is your best bet for doing that. It gives you a chance to charge in with the cabbage, crush a unit, and then fly 12" in any direction, so backwards to a safe location, towards your opponent's flanks, or even deeper into the fight.

Also, the same case (wiping an enemy unit) triggers IJ's chain attacking, which could be great with your guaranteed TP and/or eventual 6-man unit of gore-gruntas.

Edited May 20, 2020 by TALegion

[Malakree]

The big question is, if Brutes were 100 points, would you take them over Ardboys? How low does their points need to be that they are actually usable?

[Ganigumo]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

The big question is, if Brutes were 100 points, would you take them over Ardboys? How low does their points need to be that they are actually usable?

I did the math using 5 brutes with dual weapons vs 5 ardboyz against a 4+ save and ardboys do around 0.04 wounds per point while brutes do about 0.048. Brutes should scale better with bigger units due to additional gore hackas and I would expect brutes with gore choppas to do better in large units as well due to the 2 inch range. Brutes will do even better against anything with 4+ wounds, so if things like ogors or giants become meta brutes will start looking very good even at the current point cost.

 

In terms of points per wound ardboys are a 9 and brutes are a 9.3.

 

If we were just looking at a points drop brutes start looking good at 130 and are probably better than ardboyz at 120 (8 points per wound, 0.056 damage per point). I'd probably advocate for a horde discount of ~80 points myself. You get the 20 point discount, but only in a big unit and "horde" discounts actually make more sense on units that don't have incentive to be run in larger units to make the decision between MSU or  big units more compelling.

I'd still prefer a warscroll update though.

If they were 100 points i think the only reason to take 'ardboyz would be for hand of gork. As they would have 0.0672 damage per wound and 6.67 wounds per point which is nearing savage orruk levels of efficiency, especially with the save factored in.

 

@TALegion That actually sounds like a great idea, i'll definitely give that a shot when I can eventually get a game in.

[Lanoss]

100pt would be waaaaaay too cheap for brutes imo

120pts and you’re in line with Hearthguard Berzerkers  

But id still argue is too cheap for a 15w unit that can pump out 19 quality attacks 

A 80pt horde discount would be nice 

But yes, they likely need a slight buff to their warscroll (+1 bravery and since we’re asking, +1 to wound 4+wound units) 😁

[PlasticCraic]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

If they were 100 points i think the only reason to take 'ardboyz would be for hand of gork.

And that's still a big reason right there.  As a couple of us have mentioned, the main reason we prefer Ardboyz is their +2" to charge.  Both for Hand of Gork, and for footslogging.  They do most of their movement in the charge phase so the difference between making a charge and failing it is absolutely everything.

Brutes are cripplingly slow without that charge bonus.  They really needed to be devastating in combat (heavy rend / mortal wounds) to make up for that and have a niche.  Given that the mediocrity of their combat stats is now locked in until the next Warscroll update, the second best option would be for them to be waaaaay more efficient for their points to (kinda) make up for the many times they fail to get where they needed to. 

Still arguably less competitive, because their output would be spiky and unreliable (highly efficient when you do make it in, but dropping to zero in the turns when you are running around doing nothing). 

But this at least allows for the big, missing assumption in any combat efficiency calculation, namely that you are assuming they are actually in combat in the first place.  That is a far safer assumption in the case of Ardboyz, and that's the reason why I think you will continue to see a lot more of them competitively.

Edited May 21, 2020 by PlasticCraic

[VonSmall]

If you really want to get them into a fight you could always run some Bloodtoof Brutes. Green Puke them first (so you know for sure you're getting the D6" move from Mad As Hell) and then Quickduff Amulet them across the board - no guarantee but if you roll 3" for Mad As Hell you're only going to need to roll a 4 to get the Brutes in combat. Even rolling a 1 for Mad As Hell leaveas you needing a 6 to get into combat (same as Ardboys normally need). 

Again however, Ardboys do this more reliably but it is at least an option to fairly reliably get the brutes into combat.

[VonSmall]

Just for a bit of fun, I've written a list that uses the above combo (with a possible example of the setup to maximise Green Puke - only showing 3 of the gruntas from each unit, you can deploy the rest how you like) as well as trying to make the most of Smashing and Bashing. 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Get Da Realmgate
- Artefact: Quickduff Amulet
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Artefact: Shamanic Skullcape
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Gorefist (130)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 138
 

The plan: Turn 1

Hero Phase

1. Green Puke with +1 cast from item (Trying to hit 2 Grunta units and Brutes - needing roughly 3" to get all of them).

2. Warchanters do their thing

3. Gruntas make their move from Gorefist

4. Teleport Brutes with Quick Duff

5. Mighty D on Krusha

6. Move Brutes and 2x Gore Gruntas D6" extra at the end of the hero phase (let's say 3" for a low average).

Movement Phase

7. Move Krusha and Goregruntas 

Charge Phase

You now have: 

• Krusha having moved 24" 
• Gorgruntas having moves 21"
• Brutes 6" away from enemy

You're whole army has +2" charge move and smashing & bashing to pour the pain on. 

It'll be over quick one way or the other!

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by VonSmall