AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Andrew G]

19 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I mean we all knew it was cheesy as hell to run 5x5 Boyz and spam CPs to flood the edges of the board and it was 100% not intended to be played that way.

I could still see it being worthwhile in a BW army with bigger sized units where you don't have *that* valuable CP spenders. I would have liked it to be spmmable until you succeed in a 4+ roll though, just to combat bad streaks.

Yea, completely agree.  The only way I would have kept running it is if they allowed you try multiple times to spawn a new units.

I just can't build a list/gamplan around a coin-flip ability that you can't hedge against. 

[ShaneHobbes]

So I kind'a want to run a skitterstrand arachnarok now that they're 40 pts cheaper. With two MBMK and 9 gore gruntas.

 

[PC Veteran]

4 hours ago, Kasper said:

So if my boys die and my Warchanter is on the battle field. I can try to get them back on a 4+ once in every phase?

[TALegion]

4 hours ago, Kasper said:

I mean we all knew it was cheesy as hell to run 5x5 Boyz and spam CPs to flood the edges of the board and it was 100% not intended to be played that way.

I could still see it being worthwhile in a BW army with bigger sized units where you don't have *that* valuable CP spenders. I would have liked it to be spmmable until you succeed in a 4+ roll though, just to combat bad streaks.

Oh, yeah. I won't argue that it needed to be changed - I know how unfun it feels for other players to be subject to a series of 4+ game-deciding rolls. I agree, the correct solution would be something along the lines of "no more than 1 new unit can be summoned as the result of a single dying ardboy unit." The same-unit-size restriction is fine with me, as well. You have to pay a valuable unit to get a valuable unit, also you can only get a big unit if you manage to get a big unit killed.

[Lanoss]

All this wording does is ensure that the battalion is played the way it was intended. 
Yes. It’s on a 4+
Yes. It’s once per phase. 
Just means it was intended for units of 10-15 and potentially getting them back on any board edge mid game

It’s worse than the previous interpretation but the previous interpretation was left open for abuse and not the intention of the rule writers imo

[Gibs]

Made the plunge and purchased the Orruk Warclans book and was talked into some Gore-Gruntas to paint over summer (2 boxes). What configuration is recommend for weapons and units size? I already own 3 but haven't played the army in awhile. 

[broche]

6 hours ago, TALegion said:

Honestly, is there any point in running this now? Why would you pay 1 CP with a 50% chance of it doing nothing?

It's now a perfectly  balanced bataillon. Still pretty solid for 120 pts 

[Kasper]

3 hours ago, PC Veteran said:

So if my boys die and my Warchanter is on the battle field. I can try to get them back on a 4+ once in every phase?

The trigger is “when” a unit is destroyed. So if a unit is wiped by enemy spells = You can use a single CP in your opponents hero phase. He wiped another in the shooting phase = You can spend a single CP.  

So it is a single 50/50 per unit. Unless he wipes multiple units in a single phase.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Kasper

[Malakree]

8 hours ago, TALegion said:

Honestly, is there any point in running this now? Why would you pay 1 CP with a 50% chance of it doing nothing?

It's now vicious with larger Ardboy units, you can potentially spend a CP and have 30 Ardboys turn up on the edge of the board. That's game right there. The battalion is 120 points so if you get 1 unit of 10 back in 2 attempts it's paid for itself. Then for every 2 more attempts you need an extra unit of 10 to be worth it. Given that the Warchanter is mandatory in any Ironjawz based list it's still ok purely for the reduced drop count and the CP/artefact.

1. It's not cost efficient with units of 5. It can still be tactically relevant though.
2. It statistically breaks even at units of 10.
3. If you run it with units of 15+ your opponent is banking on you losing that 4+ or it's over.
4. It ironically makes Brutes even worse because a unit of 15 Ardboys in an Ardfist is just better.

For my slaughter list now I'll drop the 10 Brutes, The Burning Head and swap the Ironfist to a Gorefist.
Then add in 10 more Ardboys and a unit of 3 GG's.

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!

Leaders
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General
- Trait: Master of the Weird
- Artefact: Shamanic Skullcape
- Lore of the Weird: Wrath of Gork
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Artefact: Great Green Visions
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat

Battleline
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Battalions
Ardfist (120)
Gorefist (130)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 146
 

[Skumbaagh]

9 hours ago, Kasper said:

Change to the Ardfist batallion:

 

So it can no longer be spammed. Small units is being discouraged since a unit of 5 boyz can't suddenly turn into a 10 man unit. Also can't recycle infinitely since the new unit isn't added to the batallion, but to the army instead.

Hmm.. so now one need to read the rules from the app as well? 

I have only read the rules from the book and the faq and maybe an official answer on the fp page but never from the app. I figured there wasnt going to be an IJ faq since the ghb faq doesnt reference to one in the list of updated faqs. Maybe the list only mention faqs with changed points. Too bad since I really hoped for brutes to go down 20 points.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Skumbaagh

[Kasper]

9 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

Hmm.. so now one need to read the rules from the app as well? 

I have only read the rules from the book and the faq and maybe an official answer on the fp page but never from the app. I figured there wasnt going to be an IJ faq since the ghb faq doesnt reference to one in the list of updated faqs. Maybe the list only mention faqs with changed points. Too bad since I really hoped for brutes to go down 20 points.

Their website is pretty much chaos atm. The Skaven FAQ appeared under the 40k section. Multiple others only appear depending on how you sort by - If you sort by A-Z some appears, where as others will appear if you sort by Z-A etc. 

I'm pretty sure in a couple of days it'll be fine and you will be able to find all the correct FAQs where they usually are.

[Planar]

36 minutes ago, Malakree said:

It's now vicious with larger Ardboy units, you can potentially spend a CP and have 30 Ardboys turn up on the edge of the board. That's game right there. The battalion is 120 points so if you get 1 unit of 10 back in 2 attempts it's paid for itself. Then for every 2 more attempts you need an extra unit of 10 to be worth it. Given that the Warchanter is mandatory in any Ironjawz based list it's still ok purely for the reduced drop count and the CP/artefact.

Oversimplifing, it looks a bit like this:

5 boyz unit --> you pay (120+50=) 170  points for a 50% chance to gain 90 points (clearly a very bad bet )

10 boyz unit--> you pay 170  for a 50% chance to gain 180 points (still a bad bet )

15 boyz unit--> you pay 170  for a 50% chance to gain 270 points (an ok/ fair bet )

20 boyz unit--> you pay 170  for a 50% chance to gain 360 points (from thsi point upwards it starts looking good...)

This is of course an oversimplification since the above analysis does not factor for the fact that you can use the ability more than once per game (once per phase) thus increasing the probability of gain (but also increasing the cost of opportiunity). Also it does not factor the side benefit of free movement gained by the unit appearing at the edge you want it to.

But its an indication on where the ability stands...

Edited December 17, 2019 by Planar
typos

[DerZauberer]

While i'm glad the old ardfist was fixed, i think they made a mistake in fixing the battalion.

The 4+ was great when allowing players to spam CP on it, as you could trade one ressource (CP) to have a higher probability if you really needed that unit. Now it makes the battalion such an random and high stake mechanic . When 30 Ardboyz get destroyed, you either get a incredible advantage by a lucky roll and the enemy is super salty or you loose the roll and your "list strategy" crumbles. 

I'd love the limit of this battalion being on the unit being revived, not the CA. So you can still pump alot of CP into a unit if you really want it to be revived, but if it is back, its done and you can't use it that phase anymore. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by DerZauberer

[Malakree]

22 minutes ago, Planar said:

Oversimplifing, it looks a bit like this:

5 boyz unit --> you pay (120+50=) 170  points for a 50% chance to gain 90 points (clearly a very bad bet )

10 boyz unit--> you pay 170  for a 50% chance to gain 180 points (still a bad bet )

15 boyz unit--> you pay 170  for a 50% chance to gain 270 points (an ok/ fair bet )

20 boyz unit--> you pay 170  for a 50% chance to gain 360 points (from thsi point upwards it starts looking good...)

This is of course an oversimplification since the above analysis does not factor for the fact that you can use the ability more than once per game (once per phase) thus increasing the probability of gain (but also increasing the cost of opportiunity). Also it does not factor the side benefit of free movement gained by the unit appearing at the edge you want it to.

But its an indication on where the ability stands...

The first CP is free remember because it comes with the Ardfist, so running it with blocks of 10 is more like

• 120 for a 50% chance to at least break even on your investment.
• 170 for a 75% chance.
• 220 for a 50% chance.
• 270 for ~68% chance
• 320 for ~84% chance

So 2 notes attached to these numbers.
I'm tired right now and my brain is wrong so the numbers might be incorrect, I don't think they are.
By "at least break even" I mean the following. If you pay 220 points, 3 CP's, then a single success only nets you 180 points which is NOT a return on investment. This means that at 220 points one "success" is actually a failure for the battalion. Hence the odds for the battalion to return at least it's investment are now 2 successes and 3 successes ie. a 50% chance.

Assuming you don't lose them all in the same PHASE.  so you have a 75% odds to return your investment in units of 10 before you are hitting "negative" even with a success. 

Spoiler

 

For units of 15 it's 270 points back so we get.

• 120 for a 50% chance on return.
• 170 for a 75% 
• 220 for ~87%
• 270 for ~93%
• 320 for ~81%

Lastly at units of 20+ we get.

• 120 for a 50% chance on return.
• 170 for a 75%
• 220 for ~87%
• 270 for ~93%
• 320 for ~96%

This actually then leads to interesting questions with regards to setups of multiple different unit sizes.

For example with 2 units of 10 and a unit of 15 we break even with 3 attempts (220 points) if at least the unit of 15 returns (270) OR both units of 10(. Thus the chances of regaining our investment is

1. 50% of our attempts will fail because the unit of 15 fail.
2. Of the remaining 
3. So the chance of Success is 4/8 on the unit of 15 and 1/8 on the units of 10.
4. This goes to 1/2+1/8 = 5/8 = 62.5% chance of return on investment.

If we flip it to 2 units of 15 and a unit of 10. Either of the 15s has to come back, just the unit of 10 won't return the investment.

1. Chance of success. 6/8 on the units of 15.
2. 0/8 from the unit of 10.
3. So 6/8+0/8 = 75% chance of return on investment. 

I could do a bit more math but it's starting to get very lengthy and tedius, not complicated just time consuming number crunching wise. In addition it's not relevant for me, see below.

It then depends on what odds you think are worth the gamble. Personally I would put the bar at ~75% to be "breaking even" and 80% to be a "positive gain". Which means for me the ardfist is running.

• Exactly 2 units of 10+ to break even.
• 5 units of 10+ to be a net positive.
• 3+ units of 15+ to be a net positive.

Interesting result actually.

[DestructionFranz]

5 hours ago, Gibs said:

Made the plunge and purchased the Orruk Warclans book and was talked into some Gore-Gruntas to paint over summer (2 boxes). What configuration is recommend for weapons and units size? I already own 3 but haven't played the army in awhile. 

I think Jagged Gore Hacka if you play Ironjawz and Pig-Iron choppa if you play Big-Waaagh. 

[DestructionFranz]

2 hours ago, Planar said:

Oversimplifing, it looks a bit like this:

5 boyz unit --> you pay (120+50=) 170  points for a 50% chance to gain 90 points (clearly a very bad bet )

10 boyz unit--> you pay 170  for a 50% chance to gain 180 points (still a bad bet )

15 boyz unit--> you pay 170  for a 50% chance to gain 270 points (an ok/ fair bet )

20 boyz unit--> you pay 170  for a 50% chance to gain 360 points (from thsi point upwards it starts looking good...)

This is of course an oversimplification since the above analysis does not factor for the fact that you can use the ability more than once per game (once per phase) thus increasing the probability of gain (but also increasing the cost of opportiunity). Also it does not factor the side benefit of free movement gained by the unit appearing at the edge you want it to.

But its an indication on where the ability stands...

In my opinion at the moment Ardfist is still usefull, but just if you run unit of 15/20 in a Big Waaagh Army. (because Ardboyz are much more better if played with +1 to HR and +1 to WR (of course 🙂 ), and moreover if played to support a unit of Savage Arrowboyz).

[Gibs]

11 minutes ago, DestructionFranz said:

I think Jagged Gore Hacka if you play Ironjawz and Pig-Iron choppa if you play Big-Waaagh. 

What is that? 

[DestructionFranz]

1 hour ago, DerZauberer said:

While i'm glad the old ardfist was fixed, i think they made a mistake in fixing the battalion.

The 4+ was great when allowing players to spam CP on it, as you could trade one ressource (CP) to have a higher probability if you really needed that unit. Now it makes the battalion such an random and high stake mechanic . When 30 Ardboyz get destroyed, you either get a incredible advantage by a lucky roll and the enemy is super salty or you loose the roll and your "list strategy" crumbles. 

I'd love the limit of this battalion being on the unit being revived, not the CA. So you can still pump alot of CP into a unit if you really want it to be revived, but if it is back, its done and you can't use it that phase anymore. 

Totally agree with you. Let me the chance to spend  more Command Point to trigger the Command Ability!

[DestructionFranz]

2 minutes ago, Gibs said:

What is that? 

Gore-Gruntas can chose between two kind of weapons.  Right? 

So one of them is preferable playing Ironjawz, especially in unit of 6, (Jagged Gore-hacka) due the fact that you gain +1 to hit and +1 to wound if you charge in the same turn.

The other one is preferable playing Big Waaagh, because with that army you already have +1 to Hit and +1 to Wound (with 20 waaaagh point) but with Pig-Iron Choppa you have one more attack.

[DestructionFranz]

52 minutes ago, Malakree said:

t then depends on what odds you think are worth the gamble. Personally I would put the bar at ~75% to be "breaking even" and 80% to be a "positive gain". Which means for me the ardfist is running.

• Exactly 2 units of 10+ to break even.
• 5 units of 10+ to be a net positive.
• 3+ units of 15+ to be a net positive.

Interesting result actually.

Maybe I don't undestand one thing. Is it possible to use more than 1 command point to spawn the unit in the same phase if you fail an attempt?

[Kasper]

13 minutes ago, DestructionFranz said:

Maybe I don't undestand one thing. Is it possible to use more than 1 command point to spawn the unit in the same phase if you fail an attempt?

In the phase your unit is destroyed (in your opponents hero phase as an example) you can use 1 CP max to try and bring the unit back. If he wipes multiple units from his spells, too bad, you can only use it once. At least that's how I read it now.

[DerZauberer]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

In the phase your unit is destroyed (in your opponents hero phase as an example) you can use 1 CP max to try and bring the unit back. If he wipes multiple units from his spells, too bad, you can only use it once. At least that's how I read it now.

Same, this would invalidate @Malakree's math, does it?

If i understand your math correctly you calculate 120+X*50(CP) for the pointcosts to look how your success rate alters with X (+1 for the ardfist) CP? Afterwards you check when your above 80% and look if your net in points is positive? 

But its always 50% as you can't have more then one attempt a phase. If you don't make that 4+ your unit is gone. And thats in a vacuum where you only loose one unit a phase. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by DerZauberer

[Martijn de Bruin]

I guess everyone saw the change to Ardfist coming. Didn't think they would neuter it this much though.. ugh.

Was hoping they would change the points for Brutes from 140 tot 120 to make them viable, guess we'll have to wait until next summer 😴

 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, DerZauberer said:

Same, this would invalidate @Malakree's math, does it?

If i understand your math correctly you calculate 120+X*50(CP) for the pointcosts to look how your success rate alters with X (+1 for the ardfist) CP? Afterwards you check when your above 80% and look if your net in points is positive? 

But its always 50% as you can't have more then one attempt a phase. If you don't make that 4+ your unit is gone. And thats in a vacuum where you only loose one unit a phase. 

Actually if you look at my math it specifically stops at 5 because you can only have that many units in an ardfist now as the new ones aren't added back in.

It also only measures number of attempts at unit size to cost in relation to the ardfist and CP investment. 

If you have 3 units of 15 and only get to attempt to bring back 1 then it's 120 for the ardfist and no extra CP investment. Thus you have a 50% chance of return.

[Floom]

15 hours ago, Kasper said:

So it can no longer be spammed. Small units is being discouraged since a unit of 5 boyz can't suddenly turn into a 10 man unit. Also can't recycle infinitely since the new unit isn't added to the batallion, but to the army instead.

I think "identical" would cover adding it to the battalion, no? I know the Destruction Firestorm allegiance had something similar and the "identical" part covered any traits/artefacts it had. 
Still... This is the worst possible edit. It's not even once per unit. I would have much rather had the GSG terrain rules but requiring a cp. If only Greenskinz returned, they'd have the best fit for Orruk summoning like the original second Ardfist. I still think it's useful, but definitely less engaging both to play and list build for (beyond like 1x30, 2x5 Ardboy lists and hoping you get really lucky on the 4+ roll for the 30 man unit).