AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Planar]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

So I view Ironjawz as ridiculously CP intensive and you're only getting 1 extra with no engine behind it (Mass CP generation or aetherquartz).

Compare what you're getting from Mighty Destroyers to a 6++ with +1 hit/wound AND your 20 arrowboys become battleline. Plus you get access to the casting buffed Wurrgog Prophet who is arguably the best model in the entire book. +4 to cast on his fist of gork is disgusting.

They just announced that Sheffield Slaughter isn't running realm artefacts so I almost instantly dropped IJ for big waaagh!

Yeah i see your point. My cp engine is supposed to be the fungoid and i am toying with the idea of x2 fungoids for even more cps. 

My concerns with big waagh is that it kicks off at round 2 and tournament play very often ends by round 3 due to time (at least in my club). In any case big waagh it needs a very different approach to play than the yolo pure IJ style. More "wait and hit back" rather than charge head on. And this seems a bit counter intuitive with 2 angry cabbages .

[Planar]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

+4 to cast on his fist of gork is disgusting

Where the +4 comes from?

[Warmill]

30 minutes ago, Planar said:

Yeah i see your point. My cp engine is supposed to be the fungoid and i am toying with the idea of x2 fungoids for even more cps. 

My concerns with big waagh is that it kicks off at round 2 and tournament play very often ends by round 3 due to time (at least in my club). In any case big waagh it needs a very different approach to play than the yolo pure IJ style. More "wait and hit back" rather than charge head on. And this seems a bit counter intuitive with 2 angry cabbages .

I've been running big waagh and 2 cabbages and been absolutely loving it, punting them in to combat turn 1. Unless I roll a 1 for the general points I've got the 6++ by the combat phase and I rely on that plus the cps I don't need for buffs to rr1s to save, to keep them alive until turn 2 hits to give me the +1+1. Admittedly I plan to try them as pure IJ after our tourney this weekend but right now the 2+2+ is really hard to pass up on, turn 1 I generally whiff most of the attacks even on a 3+3+ because my dice hate me.

[broche]

1 hour ago, Planar said:

My concerns with big waagh is that it kicks off at round 2 and tournament play very often ends by round 3 due to time

I agree with your thinking. It's rare to get get the 6++ in round 1, and the +1 to wound would usually happen in round 3 (considering a 2 krusha build). You would get much more value from a -1 to hit in first round. I also agree with your reasoning on being flexible on mighty destroyer (something you loose going big waaagh).

If you engage in round 1 and the Krusha's survive until your next hero phase, you'll likely win the game right there. About CP I would say you need between 4 and 6 CP in the first 2 round (0-2 for MD in turn 1, 2 for potential MD in turn 2, 1-2 spare for charge reroll/battleshock). With Ironsunz + ironfist you would get 4, so i think your should probably keep 50 pts to buy one. Getting triumph would also be important i would bet at least 20pts for it, 30 if you can, as you'll benefit from every roll save maybe a 4.

[TALegion]

5 hours ago, Planar said:

Where the +4 comes from?

Wurrgogs are able to get a +1 to cast artefact as well as a +1 to cast command trait. Additionally, you're able to pay d6 Waaagh Points to give the Wurrgog +2 to cast that turn. Even farther, wardokks are able to give +1 to cast on a 3+, and Rogue Idols have an aura for +1 to cast. So, with no additional models, you can get +4.

[Malakree]

5 hours ago, Planar said:

Where the +4 comes from?

+1 from Master of the Weird, +1 from Morks Boney Bits, +2 from Zap Em.

5 hours ago, Planar said:

My concerns with big waagh is that it kicks off at round 2 and tournament play very often ends by round 3 due to time (at least in my club).

Ahhh, tbh I find it rare that I don't go to round 5 and it drives me up the wall when the game doesn't play out. It is definitely more about developing the board turn 1.

3 hours ago, broche said:

I agree with your thinking. It's rare to get get the 6++ in round 1, and the +1 to wound would usually happen in round 3 (considering a 2 krusha build). You would get much more value from a -1 to hit in first round. I also agree with your reasoning on being flexible on mighty destroyer (something you loose going big waaagh).

4 from WC, 1 from Wurrgog and burn a CP on 40 Orruks for 4 Waaagh! points.
Puts you at 9 before you roll the d6 so you get the 6++ on a roll of a 3+

[TALegion]

How have people been dealing OBR armies since their release? I've gotten crushed in each game that I've played against them, all vs. Petrifex Elite. Mortek guard seem too tough for us to take down, the -1 rend command ability is devastating, and that catapult can kill our WCs and Weirdnobs, plus it can disrupt unit coherency if you're not careful.

They may just be a soft counter to our entire army, but I predict that they'll be a common army at tournaments. It would be great to get some tips and tricks.

 

Edit: The only common solution I can think of is hitting them in the hero phase with Mighty Destroyers, but that's risky( since you need to have survived the previous turn's combat with them) and costly, since you'll be paying 1 CP per fighting unit. Past that, Wurrgogs can help wipe units with a 10+ cast, but that's only if you specifically bring a BW army based around him.

Edited December 11, 2019 by TALegion

[broche]

1 hour ago, TALegion said:

How have people been dealing OBR armies since their release

Won the only game I played on duality of death. I took first turn to sit on objective. Pig took Arkham and holded Guard on his turn. His Kavalos on the right killed 7 ardboys, and I won turn 2 so I was able to save them and score a second time. Guard engage Krusha (screened by 5 brutes who died to catapult after I failed all 3 save ...), but he could not kill it thanks to etheral amulet (even after winning R3 priority). I was probably rolling above average in that game tough.  However my army was subobtimal ( i was trying double cast with wrath of gork with Ironjawz instead of big waaagh, that was awful in the end).

Still, my conclusion is your  strategy is  to kill what can die (avoid Mortek guard especially block of 40), and play the objective. I also think Etheral amulet is a must in the matchup (acutally i think it's currently the most important item in the meta) as rend 2 is gonna shred a mawkrusha without it.

OBR look like a good army, but i think it's easier to handle than Fyreslayer. They do have some flaw (like they can't use generic CP to reroll charge let say). They are an elite army, once you start killing model they can start to struggle quickly on board coverage.

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

+1 from Master of the Weird, +1 from Morks Boney Bits, +2 from Zap Em.

Master of the weird look a bit subotimal in Big waagh... a mere +1 to cast compare to gain Mighty destroyer seem odd.  At the moment I consider Brutish cunning to be  auto pick in Big waagh (unless there is a variant mainly with BS).

 

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

4 from WC, 1 from Wurrgog and burn a CP on 40 Orruks for 4 Waaagh! points.
Puts you at 9 before you roll the d6 so you get the 6++ on a roll of a 3+

That assuming you can keep 40 orruck in a 18'' radius. In a 2 krusha list i doubt this will be possible every scenario. Leave you with a 50/50 of missing  of getting the 6++ (assuming you don't use the cast bonus). Which can be fine, but if you plan to go aggressive in t1 most of the game i doubt this is as good as Ironsunz buff.

You seem to really like the Wurgog, i must admit i've hard time fitting it in Ironjawz - heavy list (unless I drop the Krusha). Sure his spell is good at horde control, but by the time you get to trigger it, most model would already got eated by the Krusha? He seem better to me in those ardboys flood army.

[Planar]

Lots of good insight. Thanks folks.

I am thinking if I end up with a list similar to one proposed my @Malakree (1cabbage+1 goddrak+ 2 warchanter+wurgog+big waagh) then if I deploy tightly I can reach 14 Waagh points round 1. (6 from big G, 4 from warchanter  and 4 from waagh comand ability). It this case I will need to hold back first round and hope the hell I will unleash in turn 2 where everything will be hitting on 2+ (big G on1+) will be sufficient to clear the table.  Most probably by the start of my second turn my oppoent will have moved and captured objectives so the queston is: will the hitting back be hard enough?. Its a matter of catching-up on objectives .  In this case I see one problem. Alpha strikes bringing the game on my table side and locking me away from objectives from too far. I am thinkging that it might worth it to trade Wurgog for Weidnob with teleport (just for the possibility /threat of catapulting one cabbage anywhere needed). Wurgog =Weirnob+1 CP for defence during first turn alpha

If I go for Ironsunz as per @broche I loose both Ironclad and Ignax scales. I am struggling to trade these for -1 to hit first round of combat plus the -1 rend item. I might be wrong but i like the idea of the super tanky cabbage and my list philosophy revolves behind that. The coutner charge looks great on paper. I have never tired Ironsuz though. Has it made a big difference for you?

In the end it boils down on how I will decide to play. Hold back a bit or go full yolo first round. For sure it feels 2 cabbage is not the most rational list (compared to lots and lots of bodies) but its something I wanted to play for so long and I want to make it as much fun as possible...

[broche]

8 hours ago, Planar said:

If I go for Ironsunz as per @broche I loose both Ironclad and Ignax scales. I am struggling to trade these for -1 to hit first round of combat plus the -1 rend item.

I understand. Of course it really depend on your meta. Personnaly i don't value Ironclad too much. Rend 2 is still gonna shred you, and a lot 
of current top army (Bone reaper, Cities, Skaven, Fyreslayer) can saturate rend 2+ damage. Saturation of mortal wound is quite less frequent (on top of my head there is Terrorgheist and Berserker with polearm). Part of those MW can also be mitigated with Weird'un and/or good placement (as a lot of MW happen in the hero phase).So bottom line Ironclad function as the ironsunz armour (unfortunatly both are much worse than etheral amulet)
and I find ignax scale to be somewhat overkill.

But more important, in you current list you actually lose the trait all together by making Gordrack the general which is not a great idea. As i said Brutish cunning is the most important trait in Big Waaagh (especially with 2 maw krusha as you want at least 1 of them to attack every hero phase).
So if you go big waaagh, i would definitly go with Krusha 1 (general): Brutish Cunning + Etheral amulet , and wathever fit your play style on Krusha 2  

[Malakree]

Just as a note, I wasn't suggesting to use big g as your general in the Big WAAAGH! List...

[Planar]

15 hours ago, Malakree said:

Just as a note, I wasn't suggesting to use big g as your general in the Big WAAAGH! List...

but if you decide to include him and accept all the downsides of the decision (higher cost, lowere survivability, no command trait artifact) why loose one of his biggest benefits, the guaranteed 6 Waagh points?

do you base that on the risk of loosing him too early due to lower survavibility?

Edit: I realise now you probably suggest this because you loose the trait as well...

Edited December 12, 2019 by Planar

[Malakree]

54 minutes ago, Planar said:

but if you decide to include him and accept all the downsides of the decision (higher cost, lowere survivability, no command trait artifact) why loose one of his biggest benefits, the guaranteed 6 Waagh points?

do you base that on the risk of loosing him too early due to lower survavibility?

Edit: I realise now you probably suggest this because you loose the trait as well...

Losing the trait is a large factor. You're also running him with mean un which with the WC buff makes him really nasty.

Also if you look at the list I posted there's no battalion. That means your second cabbage won't have a trait or artefact so you're not losing those for running gordrakk.

There's also the fact that gordrakk is a little less dependent on the Big WAAAGH! Buffs. The +1 to hit doesn't effect his own weapons, he does mortal wounds with some of his weapons on 4+ unmod wounds. So him not being the general means you can play more aggressively with him early. Remember that charging with a hero is +1 WP as is being in combat on your turn.

If you can start stacking his sfv gordrakk scales so hard and so fast it can quickly get away from your opponent.

So Gordrakk essentially makes your second cabbage the early game aggressive piece big WAAAGH! Normally struggles with.

[broche]

7 hours ago, Malakree said:

If you can start stacking his sfv gordrakk scales so hard and so fast it can quickly get away from your opponent.

I'm wondering how you define get away here. The most important part from SFV is the extra wound. The way I see it playing Gordrack really aggresive will see him dead after 2 combat phase. The extra damage is like 3.5 after 3 iteration (and negligeable if you have a +1 to hit on regular Krusha). 

Personnaly I'm not finding the mortal output to be quite significant in the current meta. I do like the fact that he does always 6 shots, the extra wound and extra hitting power, but SFV between him and Regular Caabbage is irrelevant to me.

[Malakree]

8 minutes ago, broche said:

Personnaly I'm not finding the mortal output to be quite significant in the current meta. I do like the fact that he does always 6 shots, the extra wound and extra hitting power, but SFV between him and Regular Caabbage is irrelevant to me.

An extra dice on his cabbage is really nice. Especially with mean Un putting it up to 3 damage.

There's a few things which make his scaling better than the standard boss. Most obvious one being that he gets 2 extra attacks instead of one. This is important if your putting the WC +1 damage on him. With 2 SfV stacks that's 14 attacks from just him. 

Smasha is basically equivalent to the standard MK attack. It's d3 instead of 2 but it hits on 2s not 3s.

Kunnin looks mediocre but again the +1 damage makes it a slightly better version of the unbuffed MK weapon. More importantly there are so many wizards floating around at the moment that a lot of the time it's just going to be throwing out d3 MW instead.

He has the +1 wound MK trait just baked into his warscroll and can also destroy terrain cover bonus which is equivalent to +1 rend in some situations. Also in big waaagh! The 6++ really helps his survivability.

The way I look at it, you're paying 80 points to get a unique trait and artefact on a cabbage. Given that without a battalion the second cabbage has neither it's not a bad option if you can afford the points.

[broche]

Yeah good point that the warchanter scale a bit better on him (unless attacking a character). I think I would tend to use him more in Ironjawz tough (since his command is very good, but not quite usefull with already a +1 to hit army wide), and take weird un to save some mortal from spells.

[Gdead909]

What is the general thought on running the rogue idol in BW? Do you run it in place of a mawkrusha? Working on a interesting rogue idol so I wanted an idea on how everyone was using the big guy

[Planar]

Played a bit with the fantastic new tool posted by used @NoMaDhOoK (thanks dude - its awesome) in relation to the discussion above about Gordrakk vs  MBoMK

Here is the damage output for unbuffed version vs buffed version of the two (buffed = full waagh 2+ 2+ plus warchanter damage buff). Gordrakk performs better in terms of damage but not so much better. 

x access is save characteristic of opponent. Y axis is damage output

This is only from combat damage output (not taking into accout MW from charge, shooting attack or SfV stacking)

This certainly does not resolve the arguments for or against but its a nice insight

 

 

[Malakree]

@Planar How did you get the bar graph out? Screen shot+paint or...?

EDIT: I SS'd it like a grandpa.

This is the damage comparision for a single SfV stack. The difference between the two is pretty massive with gordrakk without the WC buff being the same as the MK with.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Malakree

[Planar]

14 minutes ago, Malakree said:

@Planar How did you get the bar graph out? Screen shot+paint or...?

EDIT: I SS'd it like a grandpa.

This is the damage comparision for a single SfV stack. The difference between the two is pretty massive with gordrakk without the WC buff being the same as the MK with.

Wait what is in the Y axis? these dmg outputs  (0,9-3,6) seem pretty low. 

[Planar]

11 hours ago, Gdead909 said:

What is the general thought on running the rogue idol in BW? Do you run it in place of a mawkrusha? Working on a interesting rogue idol so I wanted an idea on how everyone was using the big guy

he is great in big waagh. You can use both mighty destroyers and bonesplitterz spell on him to give him crazy movement 

10" basic move--> with spell goes to 20" (or 30") + fly -->then use mighty destroyers (one extra move)

Means you can move him up to 60in in a single turn

[Gdead909]

1 hour ago, Planar said:

he is great in big waagh. You can use both mighty destroyers and bonesplitterz spell on him to give him crazy movement 

10" basic move--> with spell goes to 20" (or 30") + fly -->then use mighty destroyers (one extra move)

Means you can move him up to 60in in a single turn

Ya it looked like you can get him down to silly armor levels and with all of his attacks the warchanter buff seemed really good

[NoMaDhOoK]

5 hours ago, Malakree said:

EDIT: I SS'd it like a grandpa.

Yeah, sorry, I am going to work on an export as PDF option soon so hopefully it shouldn't be too long (just have some other low hanging fruit to get out first) 

Edited December 13, 2019 by NoMaDhOoK
Spelling

[broche]

2 hours ago, Planar said:

10" basic move--> with spell goes to 20" (or 30") + fly -->then use mighty destroyers (one extra move)

I'm pretty sure you don't get the extra move in Hero phase (unless they change the spell wording but if I remember correctly it's state next movement phase)

 

3 hours ago, Planar said:

This is only from combat damage output (not taking into accout MW from charge, shooting attack or SfV stacking)

I think the extra dice and 6 shot are probably one of his best upgrade. It's an extra 1.4 damage average, but with much reduced variance (you will constistently hit between 2 and 4 damages).  I think what I would miss the more from Gordrack is the 2'' reach from Megaboss weapon

[Malakree]

4 hours ago, Planar said:

Wait what is in the Y axis? these dmg outputs  (0,9-3,6) seem pretty low. 

It's JUST the single SfV stack.

So 1 attack with Smasha/Kunnin, 1 attack from the MK weapon.

It's to show how much harder gordrakk scales with each SfV stack than the standard MK.