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AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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42 minutes ago, Malakree said:

If it wasn't a 4+ the only armies atm would be ardfists summoning walls of Ardboys.

At 1250 for example I could run this list

  1. Deploy defensively to bubble and protect the Warchanter+Weirdnob, use the Brutes and 1 unit of Ardboys.
  2. 3 Drops so should get to pick first or second.
  3. Roll for your Waaagh! points, get 2+d6 and can burn a CP for +2.
  4. Hand of Gork the unit of 5 Ardboys.
  5. Make a 7" charge.
  6. Ardboys die.
  7. Summon 40 Ardboys.

This is your WORST case scenario. Things which can make it better. Commanding, Deadly, Damned, Arcane, Volcanic,  rolling a 4+ on your Waaagh! dice, Aetherquartz Broach, rolling more than 1 CP from the trait, rolling an extra CP from the artefact.

Conservatively you're pulling 50 Ardboys on your turn 1 as a 3 drop army. That's 900 points of Ardboys, so I get to start the game with 2100 points in a 1250 points game. At 2k it gets even worse.

That's why it's on a 4+.

That's actually really cool, man. Another idea I didn't think of. I'm clearly still a noob. I was stuck on the idea that my leader should be the Megaboss but having the shaman with the right artefacts, I can further boost the probability of generating CPs. Thank you for the ideas :)

Any reason why you went Big Waaagh and not Ironjawz?

Edited by Jabbuk
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I've been theorycrafting some Bloodtoofs lists recently. My Ironjawz are painted red so I really want to make this clan work, even though I realize that it's most likely not the most optimal way to play them - especially with their trash command trait. I'm also interested in the Ardfist since it should synergize well with the Bloodtoofs +1 to run and charge rolls, totaling in your Ardboyz getting +4 to charge rolls (+1 for Ironjawz, +1 for Bloodtoofs, +2 for the drum). This is what I came up with:

 

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Warclan: Bloodtoofs

Mortal Realm: Hysh

 

Leaders:

Megaboss on Maw-krusha

- General

- Quickduff Amulet

- Get Da Realmgate

Orruk Warchanter

- Atherquartz Brooch

Orruk Warchanter

Orruk Weirdnob Shaman

- Shamanic Skullcape

- Wrath of Gork

 

Battleline

3 x Orruk Gore_Gruntas

5 x  Orruk Brutes

5 x  Orruk Brutes

15 x Orruk Ardboyz

 

Other Units

5 x Orruk Ardboyz

5 x Orruk Ardboyz

 

Battalions

Ardfist

Ironfist

 

Endless Spells

Balewind Vortex

 

2000 points in total.

 

There are 3 simple ideas at play here:

  • Keep your units close to the Shaman to nuke the opponent with the Wrath of Gork.
  • Suicide your two 5-man Ardboy units to get more Ardboyz.
  • Buff up and teleport the 15-man Ardboy unit with the Quickduff Amulet to take out high-threat targets.

I haven't played any games with the new battletome yet so I have no idea how the list would do in practice. What do you think? Is the concept feasible at all? What would you do to improve it?

 

Edited by DanteeChaos
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39 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

That's actually really cool, man. Another idea I didn't think of. I'm clearly still a noob. I was stuck on the idea that my leader should be the Megaboss but having the shaman with the right artefacts, I can further boost the probability of generating CPs. Thank you for the ideas :)

Any reason why you went Big Waaagh and not Ironjawz?

At 2k it's so that you can put 4 Wurrgog prophets in.

At less than that it's not quite as relevant but you gain and stack up Waaagh! points by charging or having units of 10 in combat, given that the Ardfist puts units of 10 on the board it generates a lot of Waaagh! points.

You're also going to generally have Ardboys operating outside the range of heroes so MD drops in value while SnB is basically irrelevant since you're not running the units to blow things up.

On the otherside of it you can use WP early in the game to add +2 to your casts, which makes the initial HoG more likely, later on it means your recycling Ardboy units have a 6++ and +1/+1 on attacks. Essentially the stacking bonuses are general army buffs unlike the IJ ones which are really geared to a different playstyle, a unit of 10 ardboys  with all the Waaagh! buffs is one of the most terrifying things in the game.

  • 2 wounds each, 20 total.
  • 8 wounds with a 6++ vs normal wounds.
  • a generic 6++.
  • ~26 effective wounds per unit.
  • 2 attacks each with 2 extra for the boss is 22 total.
  • +1 to hit and +1 to wound.
  • 22 attacks at 2+/2+/-1/1.
  • You can Waaagh! at 24 WP for 1 cp and it's MAP WIDE with no restrictions.
  • You're now at 32 attacks 2+/2+/-1/1
  • If you have 40 Ardboys in combat that's 128 attacks.

Which is ridonclous...

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So after all the discussions and suggestions, I'm trying to learn as much as possible here and these are a few takeaways for the final list:

- If I build around Ardfist and want it to work, I better commit and build around it properly with traits and artefacts that will generate as many CPs as possible.

- Since I'm playing on a scenario where I need to camp the objectives, I can focus on durability and resiliency.

- Drop brutes in units of 5, only take them in units of 10 if you want them to make a difference

My list: 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General
- Trait: Dead Kunnin'
- Artefact: Great Green Visions
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
Orruk Warchanter (110)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)

Battalions
Ardfist (120)

Total: 1250 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 97
 

  • I figured that I didn't need to have my Megaboss as my general because I need a lot of CPs and I don't need him to be a killing machine. I need him to stay put on the objective and live as long as possible. 
  • I'm Ironsunz + Ardfist batallion, so I start with 3CPs turn one + Dead Kunnin' roll + GGV. This should provide me enough CPs to at least summon 1 or 2 units of ardboys.
  • For my second artefact, I'm taking Ethereal Amulet to make my MB as durable as possible.
  • My hammer is the 6GGs buffed which, I'm hoping to strike a weak spot in his deployment, hopefully his goats that allow him to summon and/or heroes.
  • I play the screening game like @Malakree taught me.
  • I am using units I own in this list. I have a group of 5 Brutes but in this scenario they wouldn't help me much.
  • I'm using Ironsunz because I want to be able to use Mighty Destroyers in my game. My units will surround my heroes, I think MD will play a key role.

I hope this makes sense and isn't too far-fetched. We don't often see Weirdnob as general but since I know the scenario already (Places of Arcane Power), I think this will work well. Will post some thoughts on the list when I'm done. Thanks a lot for the feedback and if you see something that doesn't quite work in there, do let me know please. 

 

 

Edited by Jabbuk
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13 hours ago, Jabbuk said:
  • I'm Ironsunz + Ardfist batallion, so I start with 3CPs turn one + Dead Kunnin' roll + GGV. This should provide me enough CPs to at least summon 1 or 2 units of ardboys.
  • For my second artefact, I'm taking Ethereal Amulet to make my MB as durable as possible.

The Ironsunz +1 CP is from a command trait and your megaboss has to have sunblessed armour ;) 

EDIT: The artefact change doesn't matter to much since it's basically Ethereal Lite anyway. Personally I'd take Aetherquartz over GGV, since you no longer need to take ethereal amulet, but that's a preference rather than a rule.

So it would be 2+D3 CP +1 (and 4+ GGV or aetherquartz) :D

Edited by Malakree
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22 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

I figured that I didn't need to have my Megaboss as my general because I need a lot of CPs and I don't need him to be a killing machine. I need him to stay put on the objective and live as long as possible. 

You can't use the Waaagh without a Megaboss general though, which is a big hit. If you really want CP you could always take an allied Madcap.

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5 hours ago, umpac said:

You can't use the Waaagh without a Megaboss general though, which is a big hit. If you really want CP you could always take an allied Madcap.

Fungoid Cave Shaman, actually, but yes... they're absolutely stellar allies, and give access to Skuttletide which is just incredible.

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I actually went back to the drawing board and remembered that I have another Warchanter that's primed. I figured I could just drop the MB and focus on a good casty Weirdnob Shaman and over buffing units on both sides.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General
- Trait: Dead Kunnin'
- Artefact: Shamanic Skullcape
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (110)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Units
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)

Total: 1230 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 111
 

I dropped the Ardfist to get something a bit more reliable. Thoughts?

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1 hour ago, Neomaxim said:

Fungoid Cave Shaman, actually, but yes... they're absolutely stellar allies, and give access to Skuttletide which is just incredible.

I will definitely include this combo in my list in the future. Thanks to Leo for enlightening us :)

Edited by Jabbuk
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59 minutes ago, Waaaaaaght? said:

I'm just now getting into ironjawz/big waaagh!. I currently have:

Megaboss on foot

Warchanter 

Weirdnob

3 GG's

10 Ardboys.

Can anyone create a future 2k point list? I am open to big waaagh! Or ironjawz, but I prefer against brutes.

Thanks in advance.

Buy and build 3 other GGs because 6 of em is an excellent hammer. Just buy more ardboys, at least 20 more. Another Warchanter for sure because he's the best as well. Throw in a mawkrusha and then you can. Build and at around configurations on warscrolls Builder :)

buy brutes if you love the models (I do) and try to play them in groups of 10. 

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@Jabbuk at this point all you really need to do is play some games. There's only so much that theory crafting can get you until you need in game experience to either prove/disprove your instincts.

A lot of it will also be subjective choices over your own playstyle. The best example is that Leo is a famously conservative player while I'm ridiculously aggressive as a player. How he plays, the armies he runs and the units he includes are all going to be strange and unwieldy for me. Equally I tried playing Big Waaagh! and it's completely alien to me yet apparently it has a higher win rather than IJ does atm.

It feels to me like you need to play 5/6 games messing about with all the different units before you'll get much more from this thread. I've already played 13 tournament games with the new book, the opinions I have now are wildly different from when the book was first released.

Edited by Malakree
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9 minutes ago, Malakree said:

@Jabbuk at this point all you really need to do is play some games. There's only so much that theory crafting can get you until you need in game experience to either prove/disprove your instincts.

A lot of it will also be subjective choices over your own playstyle. The best example is that Leo is a famously conservative player while I'm ridiculously aggressive as a player. How he plays, the armies he runs and the units he includes are all going to be strange and unwieldy for me. Equally I tried playing Big Waaagh! and it's completely alien to me yet apparently it has a higher win rather than IJ does atm.

It feels to me like you need to play 5/6 games messing about with all the different units before you'll get much more from this thread. I've already played 13 tournament games with the new book, the opinions I have now are wildly different from when the book was first released.

Thanks man, really useful advice. I wish I could play more but my league is very casual. I guess I'll try to join some club around here to get more mileage :)

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12 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

Buy and build 3 other GGs because 6 of em is an excellent hammer. Just buy more ardboys, at least 20 more. Another Warchanter for sure because he's the best as well. Throw in a mawkrusha and then you can. Build and at around configurations on warscrolls Builder :)

buy brutes if you love the models (I do) and try to play them in groups of 10. 

So would basicly getting start collecting boxes be sufficient. That was my current plan, along with maybe getting some allies as orruk arowboys. Or should those be normal if I play a big waaagh! army.

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7 hours ago, Waaaaaaght? said:

So would basicly getting start collecting boxes be sufficient. That was my current plan, along with maybe getting some allies as orruk arowboys. Or should those be normal if I play a big waaagh! army.

2 start collecting boxes are a safe bet, 20 ardboyz, 2 warchanters and 6 gruntas is a very solid start to 2000pts. 1-2 extra boxes of ardboyz (or brutes if you like the models and don't care too much about min/maxing) and a shaman + foot boss and you're at 2000. Or skip the extra boyz and the foot boss and get a maw-crusha.

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1 minute ago, umpac said:

2 start collecting boxes are a safe bet, 20 ardboyz, 2 warchanters and 6 gruntas is a very solid start to 2000pts. 1-2 extra boxes of ardboyz (or brutes if you like the models and don't care too much about min/maxing) and a shaman + foot boss and you're at 2000. Or skip the extra boyz and the foot boss and get a maw-crusha.

Also on a maw-crusha, should I build it as Gordrakk or a regular maw-crusha? I know that regular is the only one that can hold artifacts, traits ect, but Gordrakk has a few great abilities, like it generates 6 waaagh! points guaranteed instead of D6 if he is the general.

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8 hours ago, Waaaaaaght? said:

Also on a maw-crusha, should I build it as Gordrakk or a regular maw-crusha? I know that regular is the only one that can hold artifacts, traits ect, but Gordrakk has a few great abilities, like it generates 6 waaagh! points guaranteed instead of D6 if he is the general.

I've seen Big Waaagh do well both with and without Gordrakk. If you play Jawz I'd take the normal MGoMK or no MK at all. Unless you play in very strict tournaments I don't think anyone will have a problem with you playing MK model as either Gordrakk or a regular megaboss. You could always just magnetize the weapons if you really want to keep your options open.

Edited by umpac
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2 hours ago, Waaaaaaght? said:

Also on a maw-crusha, should I build it as Gordrakk or a regular maw-crusha? I know that regular is the only one that can hold artifacts, traits ect, but Gordrakk has a few great abilities, like it generates 6 waaagh! points guaranteed instead of D6 if he is the general.

To be honest I've never had a tournament call me on WISIWG with the cabbage. The difference between Big G and a normal MK is so small relative to the model it's not noticeable.

This is especially true since so many people use the axes as alternative weapon looks for the MK's. My second one has Big G's axe and a rip tooth because I didn't want to use the sword again. My advice would be get some 2mm magnets, put one into the hole ontop of his armour where the banner normally goes, put the same magnet on the bottom of both the normal banner and BIg G's banner before you spray/paint them. Then paint them both and switch between them depending on whether you're using the normal one or Big G.

On the SC, it's such phenomenal value that I'd say you can go up to 4 before it starts to tank. At 4 you have 12 GG's which is 2 units of 6 or 1 unit of 6 and 2 units of 3s for a small gorefist. 4 Warchanters is a little excessive but you can easily run 3 depending on your list and 40 Ardboys is the other base unit atm.

As an equivalence.

  • 2 Start Collecting £120
  • 15 Ardboys £32
  • 6 Goregruntas £96

So 30 Ardboys and 6 GG's is £144. 2 start collecting + 15 Ardboys (taking you to 35 Ardboys) is £152.

For £8 you get an extra 5 Ardboys and 2 warchanters.

As long as you want the GG's the start collecting is easily better value. It's only if you don't want them that you should buy the units individually.

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On 11/15/2019 at 6:09 PM, DanteeChaos said:

I've been theorycrafting some Bloodtoofs lists recently. My Ironjawz are painted red so I really want to make this clan work, even though I realize that it's most likely not the most optimal way to play them - especially with their trash command trait.

Bloodooth is unfortunatly strictly inferior to Ironsunz in my opinion, but it's still not bad. Quickduff amulet is a powerfull artefact, and the extra +1 charge is never bad. You're list is good, so at the end of the day Bloodtooth is not gonna make it bad. It's just Ironsunz would better :) 

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29 minutes ago, broche said:

Bloodooth is unfortunatly strictly inferior to Ironsunz in my opinion, but it's still not bad. Quickduff amulet is a powerfull artefact, and the extra +1 charge is never bad. You're list is good, so at the end of the day Bloodtooth is not gonna make it bad. It's just Ironsunz would better :) 

Thanks for the reply. Although I agree that Ironsunz are superior to Bloodtoofs I fail to see how this applies to my list in particular. This isn't an alphastrike list so the -1 to hit during the first battle round is no big deal.

Also, I'm afraid that my MBMK can die easily without an Ethereal Amulet or a defensive command trait. Would it be a good idea to fit a Megaboss on foot into the list? It could be accomplished with removing one Warchanter and reducing the Ardboy blob to 10 models. That gives us 200 points = enough for a MB and a CP.

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-1 to hit is not only good in alpha strike. Most game see combat in round 1. Ironsunz is also more flexible on your trait (you could make a weirnob general). Command ability is also arguably better (especially if you plan to play defensive).

Personnaly in my bloodtooth i use a MB on foot for amulet, and use grypgh feather charm on Krusha. Obviously this is all personnal preference, and I would have no issue dropping the Footboss and play quickduff on MK like you do.

I've never use the double bataillion too. That would be the main concern with your list is that you're using 320 (counting balewind) pts of non troop  I think that's a lot...

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I was looking at the warchanter ability, and the way its worded, it sounds like the extra damage is added at the end instead of changing the damage characteristic. 

Would this let me do more than 1 damage to Goterk? I know someone that has him in a fyreslayers army. This could be a major weakness to him.🤩

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