AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Rivener]

2 hours ago, Nogginnocker said:

Yes. Page 4 of the designer’s commentary for the AoS core rules addresses this. It would extend both ranges of the spell because they both originate from the caster.

 

Q: Sometimes a spell will have an area of effect (e.g. all models from a unit that are within 18" of the caster, or all models within 3" of a point on the battlefield that is within 24" of the caster). If an ability increases the range of the spell, is the size of this area of effect increased by the same amount as the range is increased?

A: If the area of effect is measured from the caster, yes. If the area of effect is measured from a point on the battlefield, no – the ability will increase the range to
the point on the battlefield instead. To carry on your example, if an ability increased the range of a spell by 6", then in the first case the spell would affect all the models from the unit that were within 24" of the caster instead of 18", while in the second case the range of the point on the battlefield would be 30" instead of 24" but the spell would still only affect models within 3" of that point. Note that if area of effect is measured from a point on the battlefield, and that point is ‘anywhere on the battlefield’, then an ability that increases the range will have no effect on that spell.

Thanks for this- I had been looking for precisely this clarification for CoS spells too! The Wrath of Gork/balewind is a powerhouse then, though you’ll want to run the +1 to cast artifact and command traits to pull it off reliably, and run MSU. Or perhaps go Big Waagh and burn points for the casting bonuses...hmm..

[Wazzuli]

Hand of Gork with Blazin eyes could be interesting too. If they are in a line teleport to one side of it and roll the 4d6 and hope for the best lol. Wouldn't try it in a serious game but could be fun.

[Wazzuli]

Rogue Idol has Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz keywords! 

[ShaneHobbes]

Has anyone been using the Footboss? I usually like to run two MBMK but it's getting expensive especially with 30+ Ardboyz. Thinking of using a MB on foot with Thermalrider cloak for more bodies on the ground.

[Skumbaagh]

18 minutes ago, Wazzuli said:

Rogue Idol has Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz keywords! 

The warscroll also changed! No more halving damage and 5+ to negate both wounds and mortal wounds. Points on warscroll builder are still the same but they may have not yet been updated. Will it get cheaper or more expensive or stay?

Edited October 11, 2019 by Skumbaagh

[ShaneHobbes]

4 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

The warscroll also changed!

Looks like they nerfed/buffed Da Big 'Un. Used to be a 4+ shrug but only against MWs. And he doesn't halve damage anymore?

[Skumbaagh]

I had so much wanted it to have the hero keyword for an artefact!

[DestructionFranz]

13 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

The warscroll also changed! No more halving damage and 5+ to negate both wounds and mortal wounds. Points on warscroll builder are still the same but they may have not yet been updated. Will it get cheaper or more expensive or stay?

Cheaper, of course. This is a big Nerf! 

[Malakree]

10 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Has anyone been using the Footboss? I usually like to run two MBMK but it's getting expensive especially with 30+ Ardboyz. Thinking of using a MB on foot with Thermalrider cloak for more bodies on the ground.

Personally I don't like him. You're wasting artefacts for a meh statline and a mediocre CA.

Only time I've ever thought he was a good idea is when @Dudvig said about using HoG on him turn 1 in order to start stacking SfV straight away. This gave an efficient use of HoG early game opening without teleporting a massive unit unsupported and hoping your opponent doesn't kill it.

If you're going to drop to one cabbage take more support heroes rather than a Footboss. A Warchanter is 40 points cheaper, way more useful and doesn't require an artefact to work.

2 minutes ago, DestructionFranz said:

Cheaper, of course. This is a big Nerf! 

Wait it got a points drop aswell?

[PlayerJ]

51 minutes ago, DestructionFranz said:

Cheaper, of course. This is a big Nerf! 

Don't know how it can be a nerf with all the bonuses it now gets with keywords

[broche]

44 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Has anyone been using the Footboss? I usually like to run two MBMK but it's getting expensive especially with 30+ Ardboyz. Thinking of using a MB on foot with Thermalrider cloak for more bodies on the ground.

You can evaluate is effectivess compare with 5 brutes as it's around the same cost:

5 Brutes: 30 effective life, 10 base damage scaling down, sensible to battleshock, 5 potential model for objective

Footboss: 21 effective life (but benefit from look out sir and easy to put in cover) 5.33 base damage scaling up (and potential mortal bouncing), give you a character for command ability but only 1 model for objective.

21 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Only time I've ever thought he was a good idea is when @Dudvig said about using HoG on him turn 1 in order to start stacking SfV straight away. This gave an efficient use of HoG early game opening without teleporting a massive unit unsupported and hoping your opponent doesn't kill it.

If you're going to drop to one cabbage take more support heroes rather than a Footboss. A Warchanter is 40 points cheaper, way more useful and doesn't require an artefact to work.

Hand of gork him still require to succed a 9'' charge with only +1 bonus no? I don't think Footboss and Warchanter can be put in the same categories, as they both fill different role. Warchanter is really a support character having no board presence by itself. Footboss can keep/claim an objective by itself against many units 150 pts or less, even without an artefact.

[Requizen]

59 minutes ago, PlayerJ said:

Don't know how it can be a nerf with all the bonuses it now gets with keywords

That's the big change. A nerf to baseline durability but now can be affected by Allegiance Abilities (all of which are good) and spells. 

The Monstrous Arcanum file in the Downloads section has the updated Warscroll and still lists it at 400, so it likely will stay those points.

[Malakree]

59 minutes ago, broche said:

Hand of gork him still require to succed a 9'' charge with only +1 bonus no? I don't think Footboss and Warchanter can be put in the same categories, as they both fill different role. Warchanter is really a support character having no board presence by itself. Footboss can keep/claim an objective by itself against many units 150 pts or less, even without an artefact.

There are plenty of ways to get round that using the d6" move. Not least because you can CP reroll.

On the other point, a Footboss is being considered in one of two rolls. Either as a hero or as a combat threat, it doesn't have the speed or flexibility to do both, unlike the cabbage which can use it's mobility to switch between the two roles easily.

A Footboss protecting an objective is not a hero and doesn't perform the hero function. A Footboss performing a hero function is going to be body blocked and out of position to fight.

If you want a hero to replace the cabbage, take a Warchanter. You get the same CA platform with the same speed just for 40 points less, with a +1 dmg ability and a warchant.

If you want something to be a combat threat, push out and told objectives then take a unit of brutes instead. They are far harder to shift off an objective than an unstacked Footboss. 

That's really where the issue is. Your Footboss needs to stack hard and fast to become a threat or key player. That precludes them from being used as a support for your front OR point defence. It's why I liked @Dudvig use so much, the Footboss starts stacking fast and performs the same function as throwing 5 brutes into the opponents face. Difference is that the Footboss will get stronger as the fight goes on and isn't going to battle shock off the board. Not to mention that horde killers do literally nothing to a Footboss.

If you get in on your turn 1 and then double your opponent is now facing a 9 wound Footboss with 8 attacks who can fight in your hero phase.

So no, I don't consider the Footboss a hero, I view him the same way I would a dankhold troggoth. Big, tanky and hits hard. As a hero the Warchanter is strictly better.

[Jabbuk]

I've been looking at the Ironskull's models and think they look really good. I wanted to include them in my army and was wondering if you guys have found any use for them. They seem to be worse than a group of 5 ardboys. Especially since ardboys are now 3+/3+ -1 1. I'm just trying to figure out an interesting way of justifying them. Has anyone used them effectively in an AoS game and could give some advice?

[Malakree]

3 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

I've been looking at the Ironskull's models and think they look really good. I wanted to include them in my army and was wondering if you guys have found any use for them. They seem to be worse than a group of 5 ardboys. Especially since ardboys are now 3+/3+ -1 1. I'm just trying to figure out an interesting way of justifying them. Has anyone used them effectively in an AoS game and could give some advice?

Ironskull's are actually really good, it's just they have a slightly different role than Ardboys.

1. 10 points cheaper. This may seem irrelevant but it's really not, if you have 150 points spare and can free up that extra 10 points it's entire unit of GG's.
2. 6++ over the whole unit that also stops mortals. This makes them a lot tankier than it looks, Gurzag himself has a 5++
3. 7 Choppa attacks, instead of 12, on the same profile as Ardboys BUT they reroll 1 to hit unlike normal Ardboys.
4. Ardboy Big Choppa, 4+/3+/-1/2 seems meh. Except that's a Brute Gore-Choppa just with 2 attacks not 3!
5. Random extra d3 damage attack just because.

So when you work it out, the biggest downside is that they can't go in an Ironfist or Ardfist. Except being in the Ironfist isn't that important anymore, it provides absolutely no bonuses to the 4 extra units, just the boss.

So yeah, totally worth it and if you start list building you will quickly find that the phrase "If only I had 10 more points" is so true with our current points setup. Look at the points list ordered below and notice how small the steps between the different units are.

• 50 points - Command Point
• 80 points - Ironskull's
• 90 points - Ardboys
• 110 points - Warchanter/Weirdnob
• 120 points - Brutefist
• 130 points - Gorefist
• 140 points - Brutes
• 150 points - Footboss
• 160 points - GG's/Ironfist

Hopefully this shows you just how much 10 points can matter to us now. Given that Ironskull's are very comparable with Ardboys they definitely aren't useless. I'm just sad that my Gurzag's front Axe Hand has gone missing  

[Jabbuk]

2 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Ironskull's are actually really good, it's just they have a slightly different role than Ardboys.

1. 10 points cheaper. This may seem irrelevant but it's really not, if you have 150 points spare and can free up that extra 10 points it's entire unit of GG's.
2. 6++ over the whole unit that also stops mortals. This makes them a lot tankier than it looks, Gurzag himself has a 5++
3. 7 Choppa attacks, instead of 12, on the same profile as Ardboys BUT they reroll 1 to hit unlike normal Ardboys.
4. Ardboy Big Choppa, 4+/3+/-1/2 seems meh. Except that's a Brute Gore-Choppa just with 2 attacks not 3!
5. Random extra d3 damage attack just because.

So when you work it out, the biggest downside is that they can't go in an Ironfist or Ardfist. Except being in the Ironfist isn't that important anymore, it provides absolutely no bonuses to the 4 extra units, just the boss.

So yeah, totally worth it and if you start list building you will quickly find that the phrase "If only I had 10 more points" is so true with our current points setup. Look at the points list ordered below and notice how small the steps between the different units are.

• 50 points - Command Point
• 80 points - Ironskull's
• 90 points - Ardboys
• 110 points - Warchanter/Weirdnob
• 120 points - Brutefist
• 130 points - Gorefist
• 140 points - Brutes
• 150 points - Footboss
• 160 points - GG's/Ironfist

Hopefully this shows you just how much 10 points can matter to us now. Given that Ironskull's are very comparable with Ardboys they definitely aren't useless. I'm just sad that my Gurzag's front Axe Hand has gone missing  

That's so cool man! That hypes me up to buy em and include them in the army as kind of a bodyguard unit to go with Footboss (have yet to paint my MK still :)) or just objective holders, or perhaps even a strategic unit to pin down a chaff or something. Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer. You're the best.

[Tezia99]

Could the answer to the mighty Destroyers grey area be answered on page 77 of the book?  
Under “Other Big Waaagh! Allegiance Abilities it states, 

“ Units in a Big Waaagh! army can have the following allegiance abilities in addition to the Big Waaagh! battle traits. Except where modified below, the normal rules for taking alleigance abilities applies. ”

Then goes on to say IJ can choose IJ battle trait and so on. Allowing you to use those alleigance abilities since there is no modification for them “below”

[broche]

45 minutes ago, Malakree said:

A Footboss protecting an objective is not a hero and doesn't perform the hero function. A Footboss performing a hero function is going to be body blocked and out of position to fight.

Not sure I really get what you mean. How do you define hero function exactly? He can use command ability in a 12/18'' radius in a different board area. He still move slow, but with mad as hell and controlled mighty destroyer, it's less an issue than before.

[Malakree]

56 minutes ago, broche said:

Not sure I really get what you mean. How do you define hero function exactly? He can use command ability in a 12/18'' radius in a different board area. He still move slow, but with mad as hell and controlled mighty destroyer, it's less an issue than before.

The +1 to hit is wholly within 12" while Mighty Destroyers is only 18" if the Footboss is the General. In this case he specified that he's going from 2 cabbages down to 1. Since the Cabbage is obviously the general that means the Footboss auras are wholly within 12" or within 6".

So no he doesn't have the ability to use it in a different area of the board, the unit is in a very limited area around him. So if the Footboss could be supporting another unit...why wouldn't you just want a Warchanter instead. Put the +1 to hit chant on the enemy and get +1 damage on your own unit. If you don't need another unit to guard the point, well then why is that just a unit of Ardboys or Ironskullz for 2/3rds of the points cost. Hell a unit of Brutes is 10 points cheaper.

A footboss needs to be hitting combat early to really be worth it, otherwise just go 10 points either side to get Brutes or GG's.

EDIT:

A "Hero" is a support platform which functions as the origin of Command Abilities.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Malakree

[broche]

37 minutes ago, Malakree said:

A "Hero" is a support platform which functions as the origin of Command Abilities.

I consider Hero as unit with the added capacity triggering command ability and/or supporting other units.

Warchanter is obviously the better support, but is board presence is null. He have no value on his own. Megaboss have limited supporting value, but have board presence. If you need to defend a far objective from 5 deep striking liberator or sequitor, or threaten an area defended by 10 dryad warchanter have 0 value in this situation. Maybe it doesn't happen in your game, but it happen quite often in mine.

a 12'' bubble for Mighty destroyer is also not negligeable. There is also 5 other command ability you ommit, including charge reroll and IP. 

I'm not infering it's an auto-pick, but it's certainly not a bad choice. I think he is to consider as the fourth hero. I think most list should include at least 2 warchanter if able, but a third Warchanter is questionnable, as is a weirnob, so a 40 pts investment for a Megaboss you can acutally kill real stuff is certainly not that bad.

[Malakree]

51 minutes ago, broche said:

I consider Hero as unit with the added capacity triggering command ability and/or supporting other units.

What's the difference between a Dankhold Troggoth and a Troggboss. A Mangler Squig and a ManglerBoss?  That's my point.

51 minutes ago, broche said:

If you need to defend a far objective from 5 deep striking liberator or sequitor, or threaten an area defended by 10 dryad warchanter have 0 value in this situation. Maybe it doesn't happen in your game, but it happen quite often in mine.

I would never use a hero for this kind of defence. I'd rather have 5 Ardboys, 5 Brutes or 3 GG's all for equivalent points cost. Also the WC is actually not a terrible combat hero anymore. 6 attacks with 6s exploding on 4+/3+/-/1 but he has his own +1 damage ability which he can do to take it up to 2 damage. It's only once the Footboss start's stacking that he gets significantly better than the WC.

51 minutes ago, broche said:

a 12'' bubble for Mighty destroyer is also not negligeable. There is also 5 other command ability you ommit, including charge reroll and IP. 

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

or within 6".

They are 6" of a hero or 12" of your general. It means that a none general CA support range is functionally 6-12" at which point the hero is now in a supporting role.

51 minutes ago, broche said:

I'm not infering it's an auto-pick, but it's certainly not a bad choice. I think he is to consider as the fourth hero. I think most list should include at least 2 warchanter if able, but a third Warchanter is questionnable, as is a weirnob, so a 40 pts investment for a Megaboss you can acutally kill real stuff is certainly not that bad.

Assume you have a cabbage. You have 2 Warchanters, I would rather have a weirdnob with Hand of Gork. You have 2 weirdnobs, I'd take a warchanter. 

I'd have to have a really damn good reason to consider taking a Footboss over any other hero or unit we have access to. There's only two I can think of right now, throw him across the board with a HoG turn 1 and force my opponent to deal with him or if I'm not running any Cabbages at all in order to have a tanky general.

He's mediocre in a book where the warchanter exists.

 

EDIT: Not saying don't run a Footboss if you want. Just arguing I would consider him suboptimal.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Malakree

[Fuggorf]

What about a world where you're Bloodtoofs and you want your cabbage to have a real artefact?

In my mind he serves the same role as the weirdnob (using a clutch hand of gork) and is also handy in a scrap.

[Jabbuk]

9 hours ago, Malakree said:

Ironskull's are actually really good, it's just they have a slightly different role than Ardboys.

1. 10 points cheaper. This may seem irrelevant but it's really not, if you have 150 points spare and can free up that extra 10 points it's entire unit of GG's.
2. 6++ over the whole unit that also stops mortals. This makes them a lot tankier than it looks, Gurzag himself has a 5++
3. 7 Choppa attacks, instead of 12, on the same profile as Ardboys BUT they reroll 1 to hit unlike normal Ardboys.
4. Ardboy Big Choppa, 4+/3+/-1/2 seems meh. Except that's a Brute Gore-Choppa just with 2 attacks not 3!
5. Random extra d3 damage attack just because.

So when you work it out, the biggest downside is that they can't go in an Ironfist or Ardfist. Except being in the Ironfist isn't that important anymore, it provides absolutely no bonuses to the 4 extra units, just the boss.

So yeah, totally worth it and if you start list building you will quickly find that the phrase "If only I had 10 more points" is so true with our current points setup. Look at the points list ordered below and notice how small the steps between the different units are.

• 50 points - Command Point
• 80 points - Ironskull's
• 90 points - Ardboys
• 110 points - Warchanter/Weirdnob
• 120 points - Brutefist
• 130 points - Gorefist
• 140 points - Brutes
• 150 points - Footboss
• 160 points - GG's/Ironfist

Hopefully this shows you just how much 10 points can matter to us now. Given that Ironskull's are very comparable with Ardboys they definitely aren't useless. I'm just sad that my Gurzag's front Axe Hand has gone missing  

I actually checked the Ironskull's Warscroll and the ability Paired Choppas on their profile says that they add 1 to hit rolls for attacks with a pair of ardboys Choppas. That's actually really good, they have a 2+/3+/-1/1. That's freaking good. 

What I don't understand however is why they didn't just put the +1 to hit rolls directly in their weapon profile. Is it to standardize the Pair of Ardboys Choppas weapon profile to every ardboys? I guess that would be why. And since they're more elite, they get this ability.

[Jabbuk]

9 hours ago, Malakree said:

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Jabbuk
Double post. I don't know why this happened.

[Malakithe]

People on FB are saying the Idol is staying at 400pts but the change in the keywords means it can be fully and properly buffed by IJ and Bonesplitterz abilities. That combined with its potential crazy damage output is huge