AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Skumbaagh]

57 minutes ago, Malakree said:

It's why I was pretty sure my Gordrakktoofs list beat them hard. I had the engagement range, damage and way to get round their LoD to blow them out of the water in a single turn.

But slaanesh will let your fight last on a 2+ or 4+ with a lot of stuff. 

[Malakree]

11 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

But slaanesh will let your fight last on a 2+ or 4+ with a lot of stuff. 

Yes, then you wipe out a unit of 10 Demonetes with a random extra unit you positioned so it wouldn't get locus of distraction to fight last.

• Smashing and Bashing.
• Activate my Maw-krusha who is "fighting last". Kill the Keeper of Secrets.
• Smashing and Bashing.
• Activate that Brute unit with +6 attacks and watch as the boss minces KoS number 2.
• Smashing and Bashing.

etc.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Malakree

[LLuck]

DAMAGETABLE against 4+ Save	0 Waaaghpoints	16 Waaaghpoints	20 Waaaghpoints	24 Waaaghpoints	Per Point
10 Ardboys	6,52	8,15	12,73	18,52	0,10
10 Ardboys + Warchanter	13,04	16,30	25,46	37,04	0,13
5 Brutes	6,67	8,44	10,56	13,61	0,10
5 Brutes + Warchanter	11,78	14,89	18,61	23,89	0,10
3 Gore Gruntas	5,35	6,81	8,69	10,74	0,07
3 Gore Gruntas + Warchanter	10,70	13,63	17,37	21,48	0,08
2 Big Stabbaz	4,44	5,56	6,94	9,26	0,09
3 Gore Gruntas charg., Hackas	8,80	9,46	10,30	12,73	0,08
3 Gore Gruntas charg., Choppa	8,02	9,65	11,69	14,12	0,09

 

Inspired by a post in the CoS thread, I made a table with the damage output against a 4+ save (no other modifiers) Unit for all IJ Units and Stabbaz. The columns are in order:
No buffs; +1 to Hit; +1 to Hit and +1 to Wound; +1 H/W and +1 Attack.
I didn't include the Gore Grunta buff on charge or Stabbaz extra damage against Monsters, if anybody is interested in any other unit/constellation let me know and I'll add it when I get to it. Feedback is appreciated!

Edited October 4, 2019 by LLuck

[Arkahn]

3 minutes ago, LLuck said:

 

 

DAMAGETABLE against 4+ Save	0 Waaaghpoints	16 Waaaghpoints	20 Waaaghpoints	24 Waaaghpoints	Per Point
10 Ardboys	6,52	8,15	12,73	18,52	0,10
10 Ardboys + Warchanter	13,04	16,30	25,46	37,04	0,13
5 Brutes	6,67	8,44	10,56	13,61	0,10
5 Brutes + Warchanter	11,78	14,89	18,61	23,89	0,10
3 Gore Gruntas	5,06	6,44	8,22	10,28	0,06
3 Gore Gruntas + Warchanter	10,11	12,89	16,44	20,56	0,08
2 Big Stabbaz	4,44	5,56	6,94	9,26	0,

Inspired by a post in the CoS thread, I made a table with the damage output against a 4+ save (no other modifiers) Unit for all IJ Units and Stabbaz. The columns are in order:
No buffs; +1 to Hit; +1 to Hit and +1 to Wound; +1 H/W and +1 Attack.
I didn't include the Gore Grunta buff on charge or Stabbaz extra damage against Monsters, if anybody is interested in any other unit/constellation let me know and I'll add it when I get to it. Feedback is appreciated!

Really good dude ! 

Which weapons on gruntas ? And brutes ? 

On gruntas it should be interesting with their buff on charge 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Arkahn

[broche]

I've tried to make a list a bit different focused more about some range attack and dishing mortal:

Spoiler

maw krusha    460    big'un, ironclad
weidnob    110    wrath of gork, +1 cast
scragnot    220    
warchanter    110    healing beat
        
10 ardboys    180    
5 ardboys    90    
5 brutes    140    
5 brutes    140    
3 gruntas    160    
3 gruntas    160    
3 gruntas    160    
        
geminid    60    

Goal would basically pin (and hopefully kill) stuff with Maw krusha early, while put some range pressure with geminid and Scragnot. Then mid game try to pass a wrath of gork and maybe trigger a MK double charge. Note i'm not convinced it's a good list, i'm just trying to find if Wrath of gork is somewhat usable cause the spell is cool

edit: list was actually illegal and need rework

Edited October 5, 2019 by broche

[Malakree]

Just got my Book and I'm going through stuff which I've spotted which hasn't really come up or which I got wrong previously or even just clarifying.

1. Gordrakk gets the Ironjawz Warclan (Ironsunz etc) keyword if you choose a Warclan
2. Warchanters have no Traits or Artefacts in the book outside Bloodtoofs/Choppas Traits.
3. Live to Fight Command Trait lets you reroll wound rolls for the General and his mount.
4. Bestial Charisma is once per Battleround so if you use it in your turn (and you have priority) you can't use it in your opponents turn.
5. Weirdnob command traits are actually really good.
6. Master of the Weird Command Trait gives +1 to dispell making it possibly the only one in the entire game atm.
7. Armour of Gork is Melee weapons only. The Riptooth Fist is not!
8. Weirdnob artefacts are actually really good.
9. Get 'Em Beat is wholly within 12".
10. Fixin' Beat and Killa Beat are not wholly within. (Great for healing Cabbages)
11. Fixin' Beat says pick a model. So if the Unit is within 12" but the Model is not you can't heal that Unit.
12. Brain-bursta and Mighty 'Eadbutt are strictly better versions of Arcane Bolt
13. Da Blazin' Eyes could potentially hose down hordes if you do it right.
14. Bash 'Em Ladz is +1 to wound not reroll wounds.
15. Wrath of Gork is 2 dice per unit with 2 or more models. So 3 units will net you 5 MW on average.
16. The Lore of the Weird is ordered by ascending casting value. (Random Observation)
17. Ironsunz, Bloodtoofs and Da Choppas Artefacts are all "The first Warclan Keyword must take". If you don't put an artefact on a Keyword you don't have to take it. (ie. you can take your artefact on a Megaboss in a Da Choppas army and not be forced to take the Megaskull Staff)
18. The Ironsunz Command Trait is Megaboss only. So a Weirdnob General can freely pick a Weirdnob Command Trait.
19. Ironsunz and Bloodtoofs Command Abilities are any Hero not just the General.
20. Ardfist summon is on anywhere on any board edge.
21. Brutefist mortals are pick an enemy unit per model not per unit. This means you can split the Impact hits over multiple different enemy units.
22. Ironfist Mighty Destroyers isn't Ironfist units only. So you could throw it on a Megaboss instead if you wanted.
23. Weirdfist is Ardboys and Brute units only and Wholly Within 18" making it quite restrictive.
24. All the Ironjawz Battalions unit requirements are not in Keyword Bold. So Ironskullz Boyz still don't go in a Battalion.
25. Gordrakk gets an extra dice on his Destructive Bulk. He is just better in every way than a standard Megaboss.
26. As stated above the Rip-toof Fist is any save roll, so it reflects wounds against Ranged attacks aswell. Expect this to be Errata'd.
27. Cabbage Fists are now the only source of -2 Rend in the army.
28. Everything wounds on a 3+ except the Tusks and Hooves from GG's. (Or their spears if they charge.)
29. Warchanter is up to 6 attacks and now explodes on a 6 instead of an extra attack.
30. Weirdnob is a flat 3 attacks. Actually pretty scary in melee now.
31. Almost all the random damage is gone.
32. Gore-grunta Charge is all enemy units within 3" of a model. So if you get 3 enemy units within 1" of a single GG model you roll a dice for each.
33. Ardboys are only battleline in Ironjawz if they have 10 or more models. So a unit of 5 is NEVER battleline.
34. Gordrakk and a Megaboss on Mawkrusha are exactly 1000 points together. 

Pretty long list. Some interesting things.

There is a really Gruesome Weirdfist list if you tank up the weirdnob and have him as your general. Bursting with Power to make him 2 casts then  take both Hand of Gork and Wrath of Gork. Throw in Shamanic Skullcape for +1 to cast, combine with a Balewind Vortex for the +6" casting range and second spell. Your Weirdnob can now Teleport then cast Wrath of Gork and THREE Green Puke spells at 6+2d6". That's a ton of potential mortal wounds and makes him functionally a 5 cast wizard with +1. SUCK IT ARKHAN!

Edited October 5, 2019 by Malakree

[Kizkull]

The point Nº33 broke my heart

[Scurvydog]

So thinking about a 2k list using the Great Whaagh allegiance while running pure Ironjawz:

Gordrakk - Mean un mount trait

2x warchanters - 1 with the aetherquartz brooch. Get em beat and Fixem beat

Weirdnob Shaman - general, 2 spells/2 casts trait, skullcape +1 to cast artefact

Ironfist battalion

10 x brutes - boss of the ironfist

15 x ardboyz

5 x ardboyz (sit on obj)

3 x Gore gruntas - choppas

3 X Gore gruntas - choppas

This is a 5 drop army, the idea is to let the opponent go first if possible. With Gordrakk and 2 warchanters you should be able to stack up 20 points minimum by turn 2, so everything has +1 hit and wound, 6++ and so on. Battalion help especially the Brute unit be much more dangerous and when they get +1 to everything, all hell is lose. In a great Whaagh you also need a battalion to take more than 1 warbeat for a warchanter.

Merging the Gore Gruntas is an option as well, to make them easier to buff with a warchanter. Great hand and wrath of gork on the warchanter, with +1 to cast it is much more likely to get them of. Teleporting the 15 ardboyz for an offensive play with a warchanter buff is good, but placing the 5 guys on an objective right away can also be the right play.

A lot of brute force here and I look forward to see if the 6++ save and +1 to hit and wound is better than having warclan command abilities and mighty destroyers + smashing and bashing. It is quite some handy tools being lost in favor of pure dice power, although the ironfist helps a little bit here.

 

[Lanoss]

Is it common understanding that Smashing & Bashing gets around fight priorities?

I had 2 games yesterday where the two rules impacted one another and even though i (of course) argues the case for S&B - and tbh I think I was winning the discussion - we simply rolled a 4+ for which took precedence 

Thoughts?

[Malakree]

Just now, Lanoss said:

Is it common understanding that Smashing & Bashing gets around fight priorities?

I had 2 games yesterday where the two rules impacted one another and even though i (of course) argues the case for S&B - and tbh I think I was winning the discussion - we simply rolled a 4+ for which took precedence 

Thoughts?

Ok so different points.

1. Locus of Diversion says a unit fights at the end of the phase. 
2. The Core Rules say "In the combat phase, the players take it in turn to pick units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place."
3. The FAQ states "...and lastly you pile in and make attacks with units that make attacks at the end of the combat phase."
4. It doesn't say you can't pick the unit to fight. It explicitly states it fights at the end of the phase after all other units have been picked to fight.

From this we can see that "Pick" specifically refers to the action of alternating attacks. The Locus of Diversion expliitly DOES NOT say you cannot pick a unit to fight. Then we get to Smashing and Bashing.

1. It says "...you can pick 1 friendly which has not yet fought in that combat phase and is within 3" of an enemy unit."
2. Note the full stop here.
3. "That unit fights immediately."
4. It does not say "You may pick another unit to fight..."

This is quite a bit of semantics but it's really important as it means that the picking a unit with S&B has nothing to do with the combat phase. Rather it's an ability Voice of Gork or Violent Fury, You choose a target, then that target gains an effect granted by the ability.

Hence S&B acts completely independently to the rest of the combat phase and combat phase sequencing.  

That's logic chain 1. Now for Logic chain 2.

1. From the Core rules Commentary. 
   Q: Can a model that has an ability that allows it to pile in and attack when it dies still use the ability if the unit it is part of has to fight at the end of the combat phase?
   A: Yes.
2. This establishes that an ability or rule which allows a unit to fight outside of the normal combat phase order can be used irrelevant of whether it has to fight at the end of the combat phase or not.

Finally logic chain 3

1. Effect A says you can't fight till the end of the combat phase.
2. Effect B says you fight immediately.
3. I'm pretty sure that somewhere it says if two abilities directly contradict the one which was applied last takes priority. Can't find it atm though.

Hence S&B is applied after Locus of Depravity so overrules it.

[Lanoss]

What about the logic behind Itchy Nuisance which states “the unit fights at the end of the combat phase.”

Slightly difference wording. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Lanoss

[broche]

same things. Smashing bash overcome that as well. It does not overcome Doppleganger cloak however for exemple.

So goint thru the book, for bloodtooth it seem nowhere to mention you get a free realmgate, so i guess it's basicly a dead ability...

Am gonna start testing some classic ironfist variant. I think i'm gonna use Footboss with Brutish cunning as a default. He is more likely to stay with the army main body than the Krusha, and I like splitting the egg in the eventuality of a dead Krusha. I'm still unsure if I want to play weirnob + hand of gork. I might as well not take any wizard and use Bloodtooth for the quickdeath amulet.

All the subfaction have advantage, it's really hard to choose... they are honestly really well rounded. I like Ironsunz because there will be some new pesky shooting list with Cities of Sigmar, and nowday there is almost always a fight in round 1. I also like the Bloodtooth for the option to deepstrike with a pack of Ardboys. And da choppa with the option to use triple warchanter, + reroll charge, and +2 bravery to save some CP is really cool.

Edited October 6, 2019 by broche

[Kasper]

I know the book just came out, but while reading it I think we should keep in mind and make a compilation of stuff we would like to see a FAQ/Errata on

[Sigmark]

On 10/3/2019 at 7:28 PM, Jabbuk said:

I got a question about the Weirdnob Green Puke + Teleport combo you guys were talking about before. 

The Brutal Power ability reads like this: If this model is wholly within 18" of a friendly Ironjawz unit with 10 or more models at the end of its hero phase, it can attempt to cast the Green Puke spell in addition to any other spells it can cast, and even if a Wizard has already attempted to cast the Green Puke spell in that hero phase.

Doesn't that imply that you can't puke on the unit and teleport it after? Because the ability triggers at the end of the Hero Phase and is cast at the end of all other spells. So you would have casted the teleport spell and couldn't Puke on your own Ardboys before the teleport. Is this how you guys interpret this rule?

Planning on using the luminary rod on a warchanter to give units a  cheeky "poke" in the right direction.

My current thinking is a bloodtoof ironfist. "Poke a unit of 6 gruntas (ironfist boss in here) and big unit of ardboys. Teleport the ardboys 9.5" away and Mighty destroyers the gruntas. With the ironfist ability. 

This means your gruntas effectively move twice and add d6 and your ardboys teleport, move d6 and then have +4 to charge

[Jabbuk]

11 hours ago, broche said:

for bloodtooth it seem nowhere to mention you get a free realmgate, so i guess it's basicly a dead ability...

Hey @broche why would you say that? Don't you take turns choosing terrain pieces before every game? When it's your turn, you could just pick it. At least that's how we do it in my circle.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Jabbuk
Typo

[Malakree]

7 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

Hey @broche why would you say that? Don't you take turns choosing terrain pieces before every game? When it's your turn, you could just pick it. At least that's how we do it in my circle.

In the vast majority of tournaments we don't use those rules instead either having terrain setup before hand either with the dice table rolled by the TO or by the players upon reaching the table. End result being that in the past year I've played 2 tournaments (of about 10-15) which actually had a realmgate on the board which wasn't placed by my opponent or I.

@broche I raised the issue on twitter last night and was advised, by Trogg, to send it via FAQ to Ben Johnson. Given that he then liked that post I decided it was a good idea and just sent one now. I suspect there will be an Errata or Commentary on both that and what happens if you're general isn't a Megaboss.

[Jabbuk]

59 minutes ago, Malakree said:

In the vast majority of tournaments we don't use those rules instead either having terrain setup before hand either with the dice table rolled by the TO or by the players upon reaching the table. End result being that in the past year I've played 2 tournaments (of about 10-15) which actually had a realmgate on the board which wasn't placed by my opponent or I.

Wow that sucks. Then it's true that it can't be sure we have one on the table. That's so strange. Why would they put a rule like that?

Also, when do you think the FAQs are usually out after the books, traditionally?

[Malakree]

13 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

Wow that sucks. Then it's true that it can't be sure we have one on the table. That's so strange. Why would they put a rule like that?

Also, when do you think the FAQs are usually out after the books, traditionally?

2 weeks afterwards. so around the 19th

[broche]

Yeah I reread the section in pitched battle / FAQ yesterday, and you're right @Jabbuk in theory you alternate choosing terrain piece so you could always put a realmgates. But as @Malakree tournament usually use  pre-setted table to save time.  I'm guessing they will do something like allow player to swap a terrain piece if they want (anyway you already have to move terrain arround sometime so objective fit).

Back to army list, I always forget you can't use generic command trait with Clan which is sad  So much tough choice! 

And another tricky question: Can you use Mighty destroyer from ironfist when playing big waaaagh? (If it's the case it's realllllyyy gooooddd)

Edited October 6, 2019 by broche

[TALegion]

One thing I just noticed when it comes to clans: the Azyr app is saying that the Clan armies must use the command trait and artefact from their clan. The wording in the book (e.g. "An Ironsunz Megaboss general must have..." and "The first Ironsunz Megaboss to receive an artefact...") implied to me that you could avoid taking them if you used a different general type (i.e. Taking a Weirdnob general in an ironsunz list, thus avoiding the "Megaboss" part), but the app is saying that you need to take the trait/artefact in all cases.

18 minutes ago, broche said:

And another tricky question: Can you use Mighty destroyer from ironfist when playing big waaaagh? (If it's the case it's realllllyyy gooooddd)

I need to know this, too. I tried some lists yesterday and I had the most success with the Big Waaagh. If ironfist works in a Big Waaagh, it's going to be even better.

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, TALegion said:

One thing I just noticed when it comes to clans: the Azyr app is saying that the Clan armies must use the command trait and artefact from their clan. The wording in the book (e.g. "An Ironsunz Megaboss general must have..." and "The first Ironsunz Megaboss to receive an artefact...") implied to me that you could avoid taking them if you used a different general type (i.e. Taking a Weirdnob general in an ironsunz list, thus avoiding the "Megaboss" part), but the app is saying that you need to take the trait/artefact in all cases

Personally I find azyr to be bad and incorrect.

So yes if you had a weirdnob general for ironsunz you could pick the trait of your choice. However WAAAGH! Can only be used by an megaboss general so it has its own downside. The key example is Da Choppas where the artrfact can't even be taken in the vast majority of cases meaning it's the best "neutral" clan to take since it only forces your command trait.

42 minutes ago, broche said:

And another tricky question: Can you use Mighty destroyer from ironfist when playing big waaaagh? (If it's the case it's realllllyyy gooooddd)

Honestly, I can argue both points from a RaW.

I "think" both the command trait and ironfist can be used without the ironjawz allegiance abilities. Both explicitly say "...can use the Mighty Destroyers command ability..."

Under the allegiance abilities it says.

"Command Abilities: If you have an Ironjawz army you can use the following Command Abilities."

Importantly this is SEPERATE from the command abilities themselves. So Ironfist says "use this ability" you then look up the ability. At no point in the Mighty Destroyers command ability itself say that you must have the Ironjawz allegiance.

It is really tenuous though with a slight edge to yes so we will need an FAQ.

[broche]

Artefact are easier to play around because you can just avoid giving the hero an artefact, but trait are much harder to avoid  (unless it's specify the kind of heros like ironsunz). Bloodtooth and da Choppa is any kind so you have no choice.

@TALegion I agree with you, big waaagh seem more appealing to me. The only drawback is loosing smash and bash and mighty destroyer. So if you can get back mighty destroyer from ironfist, that is nuts

[broche]

Could a rule guru confirm me that cover bonus is still Wholly within? a friend is arguing that is now just within cause it say Wholly on or within. In my interpretation this mean wholly within, if not i had totally miss that ( and nobody never pointed that to me)

[TALegion]

 

If Azyr is known to be incorrect, then that's good. RaW still says that you can avoid the traits and artefacts by choosing the right general and artefact holders.

3 minutes ago, broche said:

Could a rule guru confirm me that cover bonus is still Wholly within? a friend is arguing that is now just within cause it say Wholly on or within. In my interpretation this mean wholly within, if not i had totally miss that ( and nobody never pointed that to me)

I can tell you that the book says "wholly on or within a terrain feature." I've interpreted that to mean that "wholly" is applied to both "on" and "within." 

38 minutes ago, broche said:

@TALegion I agree with you, big waaagh seem more appealing to me. The only drawback is loosing smash and bash and mighty destroyer. So if you can get back mighty destroyer from ironfist, that is nuts

My thoughts exactly. You lose S+B, access to the clans, and the IJ Waaagh (though you get the Big Waaagh's version). I haven't played with the clans yet, so I'm not sure how they match up to the Waaagh points table, but the table is very, very useful.

I'm going to test Ironsunz and Da Choppaz when I get a chance. I'm getting the feeling that Sunz are better with Mawkrushas and Choppaz are preferable if you bring no Mawkrushas.

[Kizkull]

I have two questions:

1. If you go with Big Waaagh army and you got a ironjawz hero (warchanter, for example), can you use the comand ability "mighty destroyers"?

2. In that case that I would like to play with a Big waaagh army, can I pick a bonnesplitterz hero as my general (giving him the trait and artefact from bonesplitterz) and the rest of my army can be ironjawz units only?

Thanks in advance!