AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Kasper]

Apparently the "Mad as Hell" rule specifices that the movement you get is at the end of the phase. So you could stand in a far corner with your Weirdnob and a unit, puke on your unit, teleport it with Green Hand (it only says you cant move in the following movement phase) 9" away from the enemy and then at the end of the hero phase move D6 towards the enemy.

I'm really excited about upcoming updated warscroll for the Rogue Idol. I hope it isn't just adding the "Orruk" to the tags. As it is though, 10 attacks at 3s/3s/-2/2 damage with rerolling 1s to hit on the charge. Could be fun to buff it up with +1 damage, teleport it to the other side and then have it charge some key unit or tie up other units. I haven't really looked into the math, but a unit of Ardboyz is probably more damage come to think of it. I just love that model! Please give it some love GW! 😋

Edit: Thought of something funky while browsing the warscrolls for a potential Big Waaagh army roster - Savage Big Boss can make another friendly Bonesplitterz unit attack immediately after he has fought. He can also use a CP and give a friendly Bonesplitterz unit exploding 6s. If the Rogue Idol gets Bonesplitterz and Ironjawz specific tags, you could give the Rogue Idol some mean buffs. 10 attacks exploding 6s, 2/s/2s with the Big Waaagh alligiance bonuses, 2 rend and 3 damage a pop (+1 from Warchanter). Dudes at 16 wounds with a 4+ save, halving damage. Might be worth a try.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Kasper

[Unter]

14 hours ago, broche said:

I don't think there's a huge difference between 5-6 drops, but 7 you might start doing some coin flip. FEC gouhl patrol is currently 4 drop, otherwise i think most top list can't really go below 7 from what I remember.

All of the top armies apart from Skaven are around a 4 drop. 

DoK Hag'Narr are 4-5, Slaanesh can get down to 2, and are only rarely above 5, FEC as you say are 4, Changehost are I think 2 drop, Idoneth battalion list (currently doing well in UK, especially vs current meta) is 5.

 

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Unter said:

All of the top armies apart from Skaven are around a 4 drop. 

DoK Hag'Narr are 4-5, Slaanesh can get down to 2, and are only rarely above 5, FEC as you say are 4, Changehost are I think 2 drop, Idoneth battalion list (currently doing well in UK, especially vs current meta) is 5.

 

Yeah that's what irritates me about the new book I think. I can get down to 3 drops if I go all in on the ardboys but I think I end up on 5 with no real way to get below it. 😥

One advantage is that the battalions are cheap enough you could potentially run 2 to tank the drops. Again I think you're hitting 3 tho.

EDIT: that would actually be a reason to grab even a cheap Gorefist. You threaten that if they give you first turn you will be up in their face pinning them down.

EDIT2: The cheapest Gorefist is 610. Add onto that the 680 ardfist and you're at 1290 so 710 points. Cabbage at 460 is 250 points. A hillarious list for 1750pt tournaments!

 

Cabbage (460)

Ardfist: 1 Warchanter 5x5Ardboys (680)

Gorefist: 3x3Goregruntas (610)

250 points and 1 artefact spare.

 

Options: Brutes+110 hero. Fungoid/ardboys (90) + Footboss 150) or wurrgog (160) or ggs (160)

Or a footboss + 80 points to upgrade to Big G!

Edited October 2, 2019 by Malakree

[broche]

3 hours ago, Unter said:

DoK Hag'Narr are 4-5, Slaanesh can get down to 2, and are only rarely above 5, FEC as you say are 4, Changehost are I think 2 drop, Idoneth battalion list (currently doing well in UK, especially vs current meta) is 5.

Ok I'm curious, how Hag'Narr are 4-5 drop . From what I remember slauther troupe and cauldron guard were the most played bataillion (and lot of DoK are going bataillion less). Troupe and cauldron include 5 units, and they generally have at least 2 units of fury and 3 more character, which make at leas 6 drop. I never saw 2 drop slanness...

[Unter]

3 minutes ago, broche said:

Ok I'm curious, how Hag'Narr are 4-5 drop . From what I remember slauther troupe and cauldron guard were the most played bataillion (and lot of DoK are going bataillion less). Troupe and cauldron include 5 units, and they generally have at least 2 units of fury and 3 more character, which make at leas 6 drop. I never saw 2 drop slanness...

You can get Slaanesh to 2 drop with double battalion. Usually they sit around 4-5 drops.

Last Hag'Narr I played was the following, which I believe is a 5 drop and is fairly standard:
 

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine

- Temple: Hagg Nar

Mortal Realm: Aqshy

 

Leaders

Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (330)

- General

- Trait: Devoted Desciples

- Artefact: Ignax's Scales

- Prayer: Catechism of Murder

Hag Queen (90)

- Artefact: Iron Circlet

- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine

Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)

- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor

 

Battleline

30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)

- Barbed Whips and Sacrificial Knives

30 x Sisters of Slaughter (300)

- Barbed Whips and Blade Bucklers

10 x Witch Aelves (120)

- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

 

Units

5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)

5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (90)

 

Battalions

Slaughter Troupe (130)

 

Total: 1980 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 2

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 104

 

[TALegion]

8 hours ago, Kasper said:

Apparently the "Mad as Hell" rule specifices that the movement you get is at the end of the phase. So you could stand in a far corner with your Weirdnob and a unit, puke on your unit, teleport it with Green Hand (it only says you cant move in the following movement phase) 9" away from the enemy and then at the end of the hero phase move D6 towards the enemy.

Wow, good call. That's a hilarious combo. The difference between an 8 inch charge (factoring in +1 charge) and 8 minus d6 is huge. Just the threat of having a near-guaranteed charge after deepstrike could be powerful - your opponents could never leave a valuable or weak unit vulnerable.

 

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

Cabbage (460)

Ardfist: 1 Warchanter 5x5Ardboys (680)

Gorefist: 3x3Goregruntas (610)

250 points and 1 artefact spare.

 

Options: Brutes+110 hero. Fungoid/ardboys (90) + Footboss 150) or wurrgog (160) or ggs (160)

Or a footboss + 80 points to upgrade to Big G!

That sounds like a really tempting 1750 list - I definitely want to try it.

I think the 2000pt version with Gordrakk and the Boss  (or a warchanter, which also gives you 60 pts for 1 CP) could be very usable in a Big Waaagh, too. If you take the WC, it's nearly guaranteed that you get 12 Waaagh pts for the 6+ fnp. Next turn, it's a guaranteed +1 hit, +1 wound, and +1 attack with Waaagh. All of this is at 4 drops, too.

[broche]

@Unter So based on your list I would more say that 5 drop is the bare minimum, average would be more between 6-8 depending of built depending if they use Morathi or not. Interesting fact is that with their point increase they just have room for 1 hag queen, wich make DoK much less scary.

In all honesty i'm pretty confident the new ironjawz would roll on that list going first or second.

[Jabbuk]

So I was checking out the clans again for the Ironjawz and I am wondering why there isn't more hype around Da Choppas?

I think the idea and versatility of this clan is really, really cool. You basically take a Weirdnob shaman as your general, he acts as a megaboss so he can call a Waagh, you get his spells, the warchanters prayers are now 3per cast, you get tons of brutes and ardboys as ground forces, you get +2 Bravery (so +4 for ardboys with banners and it's a nice bonus for brutes too).

What am I missing here? It seems really good. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Jabbuk
Typos

[TALegion]

53 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

So I was checking out the clans again for the Ironjawz and I am wondering why there isn't more hype around Da Choppas?

I think the idea and versatility of this clan is really, really cool. You basically take a Weirdnob shaman as your general, he acts as a megaboss so he can call a Waagh, you get his spells, the warchanters prayers are now 3per cast, you get tons of brutes and ardboys as ground forces, you get +2 Bravery (so +4 for ardboys with banners and it's a nice bonus for brutes too).

What am I missing here? It seems really good. 

I think Da Choppas are looking for army lists that are slightly different than traditional IJ ones. I think, since you want to lean into infantry-heavy lists, you probably are discouraged from bringing a Mawcrusha, as well. Also, the command ability doesn't affect gore-gruntas, which is unfortunate.  And, from a competitive standpoint, Da Choppas have to contend with Ironsunz, who might just outclass them. 

Don't get me wrong - I fully intend on trying some Da Choppas lists. It seems like the best way to make an Ardboyz-spam army, which could be super entertaining. It might be the most consistent clan, too, since the army trait basically says "reroll all charges" in most battleplans, which is always going to be useful. This is especially true with a Weirdnob using Hand of Gork and giving the unit +d6 movement with green puke. That's a nearly-guaranteed charge out of deepstrike.

 

Edit: Tbh, I think the summary is: If you bring a mawkrusha, Ironsunz is probably better. If you choose not to bring a mawkrusha and instead invest those 460 points into infantry, I think there's a legitimate argument for Da Choppas.

Edited October 2, 2019 by TALegion

[Malakree]

36 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

So I was checking out the clans again for the Ironjawz and I am wondering why there isn't more hype around Da Choppas?

I think the idea and versatility of this clan is really, really cool. You basically take a Weirdnob shaman as your general, he acts as a megaboss so he can call a Waagh, you get his spells, the warchanters prayers are now 3per cast, you get tons of brutes and ardboys as ground forces, you get +2 Bravery (so +4 for ardboys with banners and it's a nice bonus for brutes too).

What am I missing here? It seems really good. 

• At 2k most of us want a Cabbage. That makes having the weirdnob as the general a bit mediocre. 
• It does mean you can ignore the mandatory Artefact of Power if your general isn't a weirdnob which is a point in it's favour.
• The 3 target +1 damage is a Command Ability meaning you spend a CP everytime you want to triple buff, that's very prohibitive.
• It's competing with the Ironsunz which is frankly, IMO, so disgustingly good it's unreal.

So as I said previously, it's "Alright" but the issue is that Ironsunz is a level of gross that you are going to have to justify taking anything else REALLY hard.

For lower points games I think Da Choppas could be quite useful.

[Wazzuli]

I wanna make sure I'm picking up on the puke-port! Is this with one or 2 Weirdnobs? Or taking the trait or relic (forgot which it is) to cast 2 spells??

[TALegion]

6 minutes ago, Wazzuli said:

I wanna make sure I'm picking up on the puke-port! Is this with one or 2 Weirdnobs? Or taking the trait or relic (forgot which it is) to cast 2 spells??

Weirdnobs get a free use of green puke, in addition to their other spell, if they're within 18" of a unit with 10 or more models, so you only need 1 to do a puke-port. It's still a 7 to cast and can be unbound, though, so it may be worth taking a +1 cast artefact if you want to make it more reliable.

[Lanoss]

Ironsunz. 

Not being negative or anything. I’m just having a hard time seeing what makes this Clan the absolute bees knees. 

-1 to hit is only first battle round

CA seems good only for MBMK and Jagged Gruntas

CT there is the generic one you can take that imo is waaaaay better

Artefact is good; Ironclad is pretty similar. 

 

Help me out on Ironsunz here. I feel the BT and DC clans just do something more and more consistently 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Lanoss

[broche]

17 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

So I was checking out the clans again for the Ironjawz and I am wondering why there isn't more hype around Da Choppas?

Personnaly i really like da Choppa, it will probably be my first list. spending a CP for triple use of warchanter is  really good IMHO, and rerun charge and +2 bravery are never bad

[broche]

6 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

Ironsunz. 

Not being negative or anything. I’m just having a hard time seeing what makes this Clan the absolute bees knees. 

-1 to hit is only first battle round

CA seems good only for MBMK and Jagged Gruntas

CT there is the generic one you can take that imo is waaaaay better

Artefact is good; Ironclad is pretty similar. 

 

Help me out on Ironsunz here. I feel the BT and DC clans just do something more and more consistently 

I think it's really good, but i'm not sure it's godly as @Malakree seem to infer. However the CA ability is really better than you think. Spending a CA to charge first is good with anything it can really mess up oposing positionning. 

I also think you need to spend a warbeat for the -1 to hit, not sure of the exact wording. Other that that I don't care much for the +1 CP and artefact. I mean they are good. 

However I aggree that Ironsunz is probably the standard you want to compare: It's super solid.  I forecast that Bloodtooth will revolve more about a deepstriking strategy, and Da choppa a defensive strategy.

[Jabbuk]

I have a 1000pts game next week and I was planning to go with Ironsunz but I don't have a MK yet. 

Initially my list was supposed to be:

Megaboss
Warchanter

10 ardboyz
5 ardboyz (for objective)
5 brutes
2x3 GGs
 

That's 990 points. Scenario is going to be Total Commitment. 

However I'm actually thinking about going for Da Choppa with a similar list but include my Weirdnob Shaman in it. 
I'm just wondering if it'll be as effective though as I have 2 groups of GGs and they won't benefit from the buff from the clan. 

What do you guys think?

[Malakree]

22 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

Ironsunz. 

Not being negative or anything. I’m just having a hard time seeing what makes this Clan the absolute bees knees. 

-1 to hit is only first battle round

CA seems good only for MBMK and Jagged Gruntas

CT there is the generic one you can take that imo is waaaaay better

Artefact is good; Ironclad is pretty similar. 

 

Help me out on Ironsunz here. I feel the BT and DC clans just do something more and more consistently 

The CA is unbelievably good.

It's spend 1 command point to stop your opponent from charging. Or spend a CP to charge something your opponent doesn't want charged. Or charge onto an objective.

As an example. You use your CA to get +1 damage on the cabbage, GGs and a big block of ardboys.

I spend 1 cp to charge a unit of ardboys tagging all 3 units with the 3" so none of them can charge. You activate 1 and kill 5 ardboys as nothing charged that's all you can do.

You the double turn me, burn another CP to buff up. I spend 1 to throw another unit of ardboys under the bus.

With 2 cps I've completely neutered you even with a double turn, I'm now on the turn and can pick what I want to engage where and how. I get the fights which are favourable to me AND I might get the double.

That CA is unreal with how good it is. Everything else is just pretty window dressing.

[Jabbuk]

9 minutes ago, Malakree said:

The CA is unbelievably good.

It's spend 1 command point to stop your opponent from charging. Or spend a CP to charge something your opponent doesn't want charged. Or charge onto an objective.

As an example. You use your CA to get +1 damage on the cabbage, GGs and a big block of ardboys.

I spend 1 cp to charge a unit of ardboys tagging all 3 units with the 3" so none of them can charge. You activate 1 and kill 5 ardboys as nothing charged that's all you can do.

You the double turn me, burn another CP to buff up. I spend 1 to throw another unit of ardboys under the bus.

With 2 cps I've completely neutered you even with a double turn, I'm now on the turn and can pick what I want to engage where and how. I get the fights which are favourable to me AND I might get the double.

That CA is unreal with how good it is. Everything else is just pretty window dressing.

That sounds like next level stuff.

Just so that I understand your statement about tagging the 3 units together, you mean that you assume all three of them are next to each other and then you charge a unit of 5 ardboys in making sure you are within 1/2 inch of each unit so they are all engaged in combat, correct?

Edited October 2, 2019 by Jabbuk

[TALegion]

The Ironsunz CA is "at the end of the enemy charge phase," which means after all of their units have already charged, correct? It can't interrupt charges as much as respond to them, I think.

[Scurvydog]

I agree with @Malakree that the Ironsunz CA is useful, but it does not prevent anything, it states in the rules that you use it at the END of the opponents charge phase. Basically it allows you to make your opponent think twice about engaging elements of your army, such as charging in a blob of witch aelves on your mawkrusha, but that Grunta unit nearby can suddenly join in, not only taking part in the combat, but also dividing the forces.

So yea it is good, but it does not interfere with the opponents charges during the phase at all. Of course it also costs a CP to use, so that is one CP less for mighty destroyers, whaagh, +1 to hit or whatever.

As one of the only abilities that allows us more movement and ability to manipulate the battlefield, I am happy we have it as an option.

[broche]

4 minutes ago, TALegion said:

The Ironsunz CA is "at the end of the enemy charge phase," which means after all of their units have already charged, correct? It can't interrupt charges as much as respond to them, I think.

that will need confirmation, so far info we have is start of charge phase. However end of the charge would be even better as it would allow you to counter charge with unengaged units

[Lanoss]

Yeah it’s at the end of the charge phase. And the -1 is just an ability not a Warbeat I thought 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Lanoss

[Jabbuk]

5 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

I agree with @Malakree that the Ironsunz CA is useful, but it does not prevent anything, it states in the rules that you use it at the END of the opponents charge phase. Basically it allows you to make your opponent think twice about engaging elements of your army, such as charging in a blob of witch aelves on your mawkrusha, but that Grunta unit nearby can suddenly join in, not only taking part in the combat, but also dividing the forces.

So yea it is good, but it does not interfere with the opponents charges during the phase at all. Of course it also costs a CP to use, so that is one CP less for mighty destroyers, whaagh, +1 to hit or whatever.

As one of the only abilities that allows us more movement and ability to manipulate the battlefield, I am happy we have it as an option.

How about using the Warchanter beat that gives 3D6 charge for extra maneuverability? Is the +1 to hit just too good to not consider the others as well when you only have 1 warchanter?

[Superninja]

Reading Rip tooth fist, it says:

  "If the unmodified save roll for an attack that targets a model with a Rip-toof Fist is 6, the attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after all of its attacks have been resolved."

"An attack" is ranged as well I assume.

 

[broche]

@Scurvydog that's good to know because in the recap thread it state before. Actually i'm gonna take back my word, it would have been much much stronger at the start of the phase. You could have sacrifice 5 ardboys to pin 2 big hitter, like good old fanatics. Would have been totally insane. Now it allow you to support, which is good as well but now as game breaking