AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

That's some amazing stuff @Malakree. Thanks a lot for pulling that out. Excuse my noobitude while trying to understand these stats but all-in-all, what you're saying is that gore-hackas are superior by 1.5 damage (and about more if the pigs are included) and it also has more consistency?

So I change all my swords for spears?

Not quite. Basically the way it works is that you have the "average" damage for which the spears are about 1.5 damage in units of 3 on the charge with no buffs.

The choppas are more variable but that's on both the top and bottom end. It's also ONLY on the charge in the presence of no other hit buffs. The raw damage difference should also decrease without the +1 damage even if the %damage doesnt.

End result is that in 3s with the new book it's personal preference more than anything. If you get charged, use smashing and bashing in the hero phase or are stuck in combat the choppas are better. As in 3s they tend to function as medium/heavy cav chopped will be better I suspect (tho marginally).

In a vacuum with 6s as shock cav the spears will probably be better. However with the amount of +1 to hit floating around the spears are more CP efficient not more damage efficient. If you have +1 to hit and damage on them choppas become exactly the same as spears without it, if not slightly better.

[Jabbuk]

1 minute ago, Malakree said:

Not quite. Basically the way it works is that you have the "average" damage for which the spears are about 1.5 damage in units of 3 on the charge with no buffs.

The choppas are more variable but that's on both the top and bottom end. It's also ONLY on the charge in the presence of no other hit buffs. The raw damage difference should also decrease without the +1 damage even if the %damage doesnt.

End result is that in 3s with the new book it's personal preference more than anything. If you get charged, use smashing and bashing in the hero phase or are stuck in combat the choppas are better. As in 3s they tend to function as medium/heavy cav chopped will be better I suspect (tho marginally).

In a vacuum with 6s as shock cav the spears will probably be better. However with the amount of +1 to hit floating around the spears are more CP efficient not more damage efficient. If you have +1 to hit and damage on them choppas become exactly the same as spears without it, if not slightly better.

Wow, thank you so much for clarifying that. Makes so much more sense now.

[DestructionFranz]

21 hours ago, Arkahn said:

2D6 on a 6, do not abuse ! 😂

A really tanky MBMK can be Ironclad + Ignax scale, +1 save and 4+ save vs MW

EDIT : Scurvydog faster 😅

I think that the Purple Sun of Shyish does 2D6 automatically if  a model had more than 6 wounds. 

[broche]

59 minutes ago, DestructionFranz said:

I think that the Purple Sun of Shyish does 2D6 automatically if  a model had more than 6 wounds. 

I tought it was 2d6 on a 6+, but i guess the warscroll could use some more clarity:

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG_Malign_Sorcery_Purple_sun_of_shyish.pdf

 

 

[Malakree]

@DestructionFranz @broche there is an FAQ which states you have to roll the 6+ before it does the mortals.

[Superninja]

So far, overall, I am not as happy with the changes as I'd hoped I would be.  I'm hopeful that after trying stuff out that I will change my mind.

Why are there only 3 clans to choose from? (Ironsunz, Bloodtoof, Choppa)

Losing -2 rend on the brute boss and the Footboss sucks.  I know it was clunky...but I loved the grab and bash from the Brute boss.  People were scared of him.

The wierdnob shaman seems overpriced to me.  I see the utility of green puke to move our units...but we still have to hurt our own units to get the benefit. 

Love the new warchanter and the violent fury warbeat.  The fact that it lasts till your next hero phase is great!  However, the other warbeats going off on 4+ seems weak. 

SOOOOO happy about the goregrunta changes.   They are really good in my opinion.   I hated the long charge BS they had before.

 

 

 

 

[Gothmaug]

19 minutes ago, broche said:

I tought it was 2d6 on a 6+, but i guess the warscroll could use some more clarity:

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG_Malign_Sorcery_Purple_sun_of_shyish.pdf

 

 

There’s a mount trait for mawcrusha (wierd-something or other) that allows you to ignore the Effects of a spell on a 4+.  Combine that with the 3+ command save trait and the Ignax scales for a 4+ MW denial and your about a tanky  as you can get. 12 MW’s with the purple sun? No big deal,  Ignore it on a 4+. 

[EMMachine]

7 minutes ago, Superninja said:

So far, overall, I am not as happy with the changes as I'd hoped I would be.  I'm hopeful that after trying stuff out that I will change my mind.

Why are there only 3 clans to choose from? (Ironsunz, Bloodtoof, Choppa)

Losing -2 rend on the brute boss and the Footboss sucks.  I know it was clunky...but I loved the grab and bash from the Brute boss.  People were scared of him.

The wierdnob shaman seems overpriced to me.  I see the utility of green puke to move our units...but we still have to hurt our own units to get the benefit. 

Love the new warchanter and the violent fury warbeat.  The fact that it lasts till your next hero phase is great!  However, the other warbeats going off on 4+ seems weak. 

SOOOOO happy about the goregrunta changes.   They are really good in my opinion.   I hated the long charge BS they had before.

They are basicly trying to bring the factions on a kind of similar level.

The unit I'm a little unsure of are the ardboys (there weapons to be specific).

It's nice that they now basicly have the "Big Choppa profile", while hitting better and it helps much with the situation of the weaponary of Standardbearer and Musician, but it took all the thinking about advantages/disadventages of weaponchoice.

Before the new warscroll we had to decide if we want 2 Attacks with 4+/3+/-1/1 with the Big Choppa or 2 Attacks with 3+/4+/-/1 and a 6++ Aftersave with Choppa + Shield or 3 Attacks with 4+/3+/-/1 with 2 Weapons.

Now we have 2 Attacks 3+/3+/-1/1 on all models and every Shield you give adds another model with the Aftersave but there is no advantage not to take the shield (what was the 3rd Attack or the Rend before)

[Malakree]

@EMMachine that's the difference that 3 years has made in warscroll design.

It also doesn't work with the new ardfist because I'd be bringing on the exact unit with the exact loadout required for that situation.

[broche]

So I've tried to come with benchmark list, and this is my take. Basically, it's should be a good list able to compete with the majority of the field, without being the best in class, and have room for some customization. I also tried to avoid single units list (like 18 gruntas or 100 ardboys list) because most poeple don't own those anyway.

Spoiler

Maw Krusha	460
Warchanter	110
Warchanter	110
Weirnob Shaman with hand of gork	110
10 ardboys	180
10 ardboys	180
5 brutes	140
5 brutes	140
3 Gore gruntas	160
3 Gore gruntas	160
ironskull boyz	80
ironfist	160

Come at 1990, so leave 10 pts for triumph. In term of units it's mostly the same composition of pre-battletome list, but much more competitive thanks overall upgrade to our units (Ironfist being much better, warchanter, mount trait)

Note that tribe/trait/aretefact choice can have a huge impact on how it play. Do you try to hold MK in reserve, or do you equip it with destroyer for suicide bomb? Do you play more around hand of gork (maybe using the +1 cast artefact) or you don't rely to much on it and use it more like an extra? I think I would probably avoid Bloodthooth in that list, and go either vanilla tribe or Ironsunz. Da choppa could also be interesting. Artefact on weirnob suck, but puting frenzy of violence on all your units and the reroll charge have some value.

[TALegion]

@broche I'm going to run nearly the same thing, but +5 Ardboyz and -Ironskull's Boyz. I'm also leaning toward taking the max-size units to make spreading warchanter buffs easier, making it look like:

Mawcrusha w/ Gore-Hacka (General w/ Brutal Cunning, Destroyer, Mean Un')
2x WC
Weirdnob w/ Hand of Gork (Shamanistic Skullcape)
15x Ardboyz
10x Ardboyz
10x Brutes w/ Choppas
6x Goregruntas w/ Choppas
Ironfist
Total: 2000

Eventually, I want to try an Ironsunz list and a Da Choppas list, but Brutal Cunning sounds like a useful/interesting trait. I feel like 2 free Mighty Destroyers per turn will let me save command points and make the list pretty versatile and consistent.

In essence, the idea is to get to turn 2, buff the ardboyz and GG (unless brutes will get more attacks in), get everyone in an optimal position to charge, and just wipe stuff out. The mawcrusha is a suicide version, but if he can 1-shot a whole unit, he'll let you Smashin and Bashin into another unit. Best defense is a good offense, here.

[broche]

@TALegion I like it, but i think you should break at least 1 units to increase your board coverage!

[Malakree]

36 minutes ago, broche said:

So I've tried to come with benchmark list, and this is my take. Basically, it's should be a good list able to compete with the majority of the field, without being the best in class, and have room for some customization. I also tried to avoid single units list (like 18 gruntas or 100 ardboys list) because most poeple don't own those anyway.

  Hide contents

Maw Krusha	460
Warchanter	110
Warchanter	110
Weirnob Shaman with hand of gork	110
10 ardboys	180
10 ardboys	180
5 brutes	140
5 brutes	140
3 Gore gruntas	160
3 Gore gruntas	160
ironskull boyz	80
ironfist	160

Come at 1990, so leave 10 pts for triumph. In term of units it's mostly the same composition of pre-battletome list, but much more competitive thanks overall upgrade to our units (Ironfist being much better, warchanter, mount trait)

Note that tribe/trait/aretefact choice can have a huge impact on how it play. Do you try to hold MK in reserve, or do you equip it with destroyer for suicide bomb? Do you play more around hand of gork (maybe using the +1 cast artefact) or you don't rely to much on it and use it more like an extra? I think I would probably avoid Bloodthooth in that list, and go either vanilla tribe or Ironsunz. Da choppa could also be interesting. Artefact on weirnob suck, but puting frenzy of violence on all your units and the reroll charge have some value.

My problem with Da Choppas is that the +1 to 3 units requires a CP isn't just base.

• Units of 10 Ardboys now feel weird for me. Either take them as 5s for cheap objective grabbers/screen etc. or take them as bigger units to function as a buff receiver and power unit.
• Only reason I would take a unit of 10 now is to fill a battleline (if 5s don't count in IJ).
• I really don't like the 6 units and Ironfist, it's a random extra drop for no reason I can see.
• Ironskullz are cool, not sure how I feel about them. I think if you have the 10pts spare just take another 5 ardboys to make the block bigger.

End result I'd favour something like this as a base/standard/generic list.

Quote

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)

Battleline

Units
25 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (160)

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 153

2k dead on the nose and has an obviously good target for the WC buff/HoG. Also only 5 drops rather than 7.

Functions perfectly well with any of the Clans or without. Even works perfectly well as a Great Waaagh! so is much more generic.

[TALegion]

1 minute ago, broche said:

@TALegion I like it, but i think you should break at least 1 units to increase your board coverage!

That's probably a good idea. I'd be fine splitting the 10-man Ardboy unit in two 5-man units, as they're probably the most efficient objective holders. Also, more total units = more units for the Waaagh count.

With my current list, if I get everyone in the 18" bubble (and I'm not sure how realistic that is), it's a 3+ to get 2 attacks vs. 1 attack. Idk how much people are factoring the Waaagh into their lists, but I have gut feeling that increasing your odds to get the 12+ could be worth it in some circumstances.

[ShaneHobbes]

How do you guys feel about the Wurrgog Prophet over taking a Weirdknob? You lose the spell lore but he does cast/unbind twice a turn and has a nifty warscroll spell. More importantly he has the Fungoids 4+ for a CP.

[Arkahn]

11 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

How do you guys feel about the Wurrgog Prophet over taking a Weirdknob? You lose the spell lore but he does cast/unbind twice a turn and has a nifty warscroll spell. More importantly he has the Fungoids 4+ for a CP.

And if you play it in the Great Waaagh ! You can get one spell from the BS lore, maybe the one like Itchy Nuisance with D3 MW

[TALegion]

17 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:

How do you guys feel about the Wurrgog Prophet over taking a Weirdknob? You lose the spell lore but he does cast/unbind twice a turn and has a nifty warscroll spell. More importantly he has the Fungoids 4+ for a CP.

He may have a place in IJ, but I think he would be more useful in a Big Waaagh. Maybe it's a little cheesy, but if you make him the general, he can get +1 to cast from the command trait, +1  from the artefact, and +2 to cast  if you spend d6 Waaagh Points. With +4 to cast, Foot of Gork is going to be a 10+ cast roll 72% of the time, letting you deal a mortal wound to each model in a unit on a 4+. Use that on a skeleton or daemon blob, and you'll wipe half them out before movement even starts. Unless your opponent has an auto-unbind effect (which stormcast can do, but I'm not sure who else), it's also fairly safe from that.

And, as a bonus, he gives +1 Waaagh point per turn just for existing.

[broche]

@Malakree those are all valid point, especially on the number of drop. However on my experience I often fell short on the board coverage with only 5 units. As I said, everyone will tweak based on play style and personnal preference, and meta they face. 

I don't think there's a huge difference between 5-6 drops, but 7 you might start doing some coin flip. FEC gouhl patrol is currently 4 drop, otherwise i think most top list can't really go below 7 from what I remember.

3 hours ago, ShaneHobbes said:

How do you guys feel about the Wurrgog Prophet over taking a Weirdknob? You lose the spell lore but he does cast/unbind twice a turn and has a nifty warscroll spell. More importantly he has the Fungoids 4+ for a CP.

He is 50 points more expensive and can't take the hand of gork, but he's worth considering. In BS or Big Waaagh is auto pick cause he can have casting bonus.

[Malakree]

@broche

My thought was more that as an intro or base list for people to use as an entry point condensing the ardboys into a big block of 25 makes the list way more user friendly than yours. That single big block gives a very good "If in doubt" place for buffs etc. and reduces the overall complexity of the list for by a lot for a minor potential performance drop.

I'm not suggesting that either of our lists is going to be "the best" but the goal was to create a base list for people to springboard off and for me that should be as simple as possible.

[Keilerei]

Played today a pretty similar list to the one used on Warhammer TV last week.1, 5k Ironsunz, brutefist. That 2 warchanters where totally worth their points, buffing up the damage against a pretty elite skryre stormfiends list, I really felt bad for my opponent. Creeping on him with our mad as hell ability and totally deleting him, maybe it was poorly played by him and the match up was strongly in my favor. All in all it was a great start into the new era for my ladz. 

[broche]

Really the sucky thing is really the Weirdfist and the Weirnob. I loved the weirdfist before, now it's just really sucky they only real utility is try to spam your own unit from 9'' with puke to make them move foward, and the fact it's one of the way to acheive 5 drop or below.

Since the Weirnob loose it's casting bonus, the spell now seem pretty bad. Hand of gork and  Bash them lad are, strong but 8 to cast. In fact I'm wondering if they are not better used as take brain busta and head butt and rush them foward to threaten backline heroes...

[Warmill]

Just played my first game with the new rules, 2K against a footslogging khorne meat list with skarbrand on Starstrike. Obviously first game caveats apply but I really enjoyed it, the new rules just gave the army such a different feel and so many more options than just line up and hope for a waagh. The amount of movement options available really opened the battlefield up, and the army was way less dependent on staying in one big blob. I've always struggled with wide battleplans as anything out of the bubble felt so squishy, but this felt way freer.

My list was:

MBMK, mean'un mount trait

2 x warchanter, get em beat and fixing beat

Shaman w/ hand of gork and great green visions

20 x ardboyz

2 x 5 brutes

2 x 3 GG

Geminids

Ironfist

Ironsunz

 

His list was 2 x slaughterpriest, bloodsecrator, skarbrand, skullgrinder and then 2 blobs of bloodwarriors with accompanying wrathmongers. End result was a foregone conclusion in turn 4 at 20-5 to me. I didn't have any luck with spells besides casting geminids but his luck with the slaughterpriest abilities was equally awful, but get em beat was amazing. Helped by a piece of commanding terrain I was drowning in CPs and the free ironfist use meant I could get my stuff exactly where it needed to be with CPs left for rerolling 1s. I did forget about the megaboss +1 to hit all game which was a shame. I'd probably drop geminids to either make the krusha gordrakk or squeeze in another 5 ardboyz, CP or even a fungoid. I didn't get much use out of Ironsunz due to the battleplan, but I sent my krusha against skarbrand with +1 damage, +1 to hit, RR 1s to hit and +1 attack with the waagh and one-shotted him with the hacka

Downside for me is brutes feel very whiffy, the boss and choppa should really be 3+/3+.  2 units failed to kill a daemon prince in one combat phase, although his armour saves were on point. GGs felt way more useful, and having a GG ironfist boss was awesome for getting the free might destroyer where I needed it.

Altogether obviously it's only the first game against an army I've faced a few times, but man I'm in love with my orks again!

[PlasticCraic]

6 hours ago, Malakree said:

My thought was more that as an intro or base list for people to use as an entry point condensing the ardboys into a big block of 25 makes the list way more user friendly than yours.

Isn't the max unit size 20 now? 

[broche]

4 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Isn't the max unit size 20 now? 

I put my face on the screen trying to see, and I think I saw 20 as max size with about maybe 60% confidence  

I guess that would make sense

Anyone else noticed that Rip tooth fist work against range attack as well? make it much better but it's a bit stupid. It look like armour of gork is the same wording as well. I think a maw krusha with ironclad, rip tooth fist  + armour of gork could be interesting. Dish 2 mortal per 6, considering the number of hit it take to kill it he can dish out between 20 and 30 mortal. Army like stormcast are not gonna like it.

Edited October 2, 2019 by broche

[Scurvydog]

4 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Isn't the max unit size 20 now? 

It is 30, no discounts though.