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1 minute ago, Vasshpit said:

Could be interesting but I do hope they differentiate the two settings some. 

Yeah, of course seeing what we’ve had so  far I might be dreaming small 

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4 hours ago, VBS said:

The Empire/Free Guild is probably based on your average XVIth century Landsknechts, which were not reputed for having many females in their ranks..

The thing is those women that were traveling with the armies, just like kids, were never considered line troops. Till XX century all armies were being followed by a bund mishmash of tatoo artists, women of the free trade, dudes that were buying loot, people who were in the hostage trade etc. There were no female crossbowman or pike man in the XVI century. Closest thing to it were stuff like netherlands militia durning sieges, but durning those more or less everyone had to fight.

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Not to get bogged down in specific examples, but for made up armies in a made up world based on real armies (or even a romanticized version of such) from the real world, there is always a choice of what elements to include and what elements to ignore/change.  Something like old school Empire is inspired by historical European armies, but is not (and never was) an attempt to duplicate those armies.  To make a trivial example - I doubt that XVIth century Landsknechts had functioning Battlemages.  If Battlemages maintain your immersion but female troopers break it, that says more about you than it does about Warhammer.

(No specific person is being referred to here as "you".)

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2 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Not to get bogged down in specific examples, but for made up armies in a made up world based on real armies (or even a romanticized version of such) from the real world, there is always a choice of what elements to include and what elements to ignore/change.  Something like old school Empire is inspired by historical European armies, but is not (and never was) an attempt to duplicate those armies.  To make a trivial example - I doubt that XVIth century Landsknechts had functioning Battlemages.  If Battlemages maintain your immersion but female troopers break it, that says more about you than it does about Warhammer.

(No specific person is being referred to here as "you".)

Why can’t you just say “if battlemages don’t break immersion then female troopers shouldn’t either.” Or any number of other comments that don’t take passive aggressive swipes at people? 

I think the presentations by Becca Scott are fine, whether her nerd cred is legit or she’s just on there to have someone different.   I have a seven year old daughter who is super excited for “girl power” armies in AoS (went to the store with me and looooved Morathi), and I know for a fact that seeing another girl involved makes her want to play more.  So I am all for it. Bring more people into the hobby, it won’t change a thing other than give GW more money to make more awesome products. 

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3 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I'm pretty much always surprised when I see forum users (other than a topic OP or a mod) suggesting a lock. Why? What's the point of cutting off a discussion in a discussion forum?

Then we have this topic which you even say is great and polite ... But still want it locked.

Real head scratcher, that.

My 2 eurocents: Even if the TGA community is probably the most reasonable community I have ever encountered, the fact that we need to discuss the subject of an « internet host » being a woman over 8 pages (still counting) talks a lot on the  « problem » (I guess I could switch hobby and video games it won’t change anything).

I am not judging, just stating that it is a pity that we need to discuss it. Her gender should be a non-topic. I hope the next generation will more intelligent because when I read some screenshot from BOLS, I started to pray for a certain star alignment.

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32 minutes ago, pseudonyme said:

My 2 eurocents: Even if the TGA community is probably the most reasonable community I have ever encountered, the fact that we need to discuss the subject of an « internet host » being a woman over 8 pages (still counting) talks a lot on the  « problem » (I guess I could switch hobby and video games it won’t change anything).

I am not judging, just stating that it is a pity that we need to discuss it. Her gender should be a non-topic. I hope the next generation will more intelligent because when I read some screenshot from BOLS, I started to pray for a certain star alignment.

It kind of changed into something else in this discussion.

Regardless where are the rest of the videos? I can only find like two of the site.

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1 minute ago, Riavan said:

It kind of changed into something else in this discussion.

Exactly. A good something else at that.

For my part, as I've stated earlier, my critique of the choice is not based on her gender, but her seeming lack of genuine interest in the topic she's presenting.

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9 minutes ago, Riavan said:

It kind of changed into something else in this discussion.

Regardless where are the rest of the videos? I can only find like two of the site.

Was trying to answer to the « why people want the topic to be closed ». But at some point, you could also wonder why therenis not a new topic on the digression.  Mainly because the topic title is someone’s name.

Not that I care that much. Guess I am bored ?

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15 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

For my part, as I've stated earlier, my critique of the choice is not based on her gender, but her seeming lack of genuine interest in the topic she's presenting.

Why is it that women have to prove they are genuine fans of things? Real sports fans, real gamers? Besides, these videos are meant to be concise tutorials, I'm not sure what you want from her exactly?

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1 hour ago, Walrustaco said:

Why is it that women have to prove they are genuine fans of things? Real sports fans, real gamers? Besides, these videos are meant to be concise tutorials, I'm not sure what you want from her exactly?

You're adding something to what I'm saying. "Women" don't have to prove it at all. Reviewers/hosts/professionals do, regardless of gender. 

I encourage you to read my earlier comment showing a male example as well. Nowhere, at all, have I said or implied that a female host bears an extra burden, so please don't paint me that way.

Edited by Sleboda
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Going back to the idea that wargamming is a more male appealing hobby and pushes females away, I would like to make the case that its in no way the case. When you compare wargamming to other hobbies, especially the painting element, it is not something that is very masculine in the way a sport like football(referring to the American version)or wrestling boxing ect.  It's something that isn't going to make people look at a guy who does it and make them think "he's so manly and tough". It is a social hobby which should appeal to everyone.

I think the problem is that the current demographics of the players are not diverse, and that wargamming is not well advertised and as a result is passed on through personal connection. Obviously better advertising and a  wider range of characters could help. GW doesn't do much to reach out to the younger audience, like myself, either.  While adding a female presenter may help expand the player base,  its only a  small step, and  mostly just affects the current player base.

Also, I don't understand why anyone is opposed to a wider range of armies with a larger amount of ethnicities, cultures  and gender diversity. It's not like your current armies are gonna stop being playable. It's not like AoS is medieval times, their are demons, demigods, space lizards, orks, robo-dwarfs, fire dwarfs, soul sucking sea elves, delusional cannibals who think they're knights in shinning armor, and all kinds cultists, blood cults or followers of chaos. And thats just the ones who have battletomes. The setting is 8 realms which are multiple times the size of earth, made of pure magic. And yet people are get upset over giving everyone characters who are relateable. And while the topic of inclusitivity is up, can GW add some lgbtq characters? And some younger ones? Some eastern influence maybe? 

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They should have gone full 50/50 female/male stormcasts for the sacrosanct chamber. With a female general. The easy to build female stormcast is, in my eyes, one of the best model of the range. She should have been part of the core box.

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36 minutes ago, Pariah said:

It is a social hobby which should appeal to everyone

Don't see why?

 

36 minutes ago, Pariah said:

And while the topic of inclusitivity is up, can GW add some lgbtq characters? And some younger ones? Some eastern influence maybe? 

Is this meant to be ironic?

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As an aside, the term SJW is only ever used as an insult to a nebulous group of people who are vaguely to the left of the person using the term. Any discussion that someone raises the specter of the SJW is one where you won't find pretty much any factual backing or research, just gut think and an echo chamber somewhere.

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We'll, there's another Becca video up and some cross promotion with Geek and Somethingorother. Makes sense, and I bet having both her and their site work together gets some interest from potential new fans.

(Better check this Ian character's geek credentials. He isn't that attractive, so he may be safe...)

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46 minutes ago, fredster4050 said:

Don't see why?

 

Is this meant to be ironic?

Social hobbies like wargaming are largely about interacting with friends, at least from my experience. What I'm trying to say is that even with gender norms and expectations, nothing should stop women from feeling welcome in a gaming environment. It's not like football, wrestling or such which caters  toward one gender and actively works to discourage the other. I guess what im saying is that, fundamentally, wargaming should be a medium for interaction, which any group of friends can enjoy. Not to say that it's just a game, just that when I interact with my peers at school, it seems like something that nerds, guys and girls, would both be able to enjoy. Very much like roleplaying games or board games, which tend to pull a larger female audience. Sorry if I rambled on there. 

 

No. I believe that even on lgbtq character could go a long way.  Also, Asian influence could make for a great army.  Maybe dwarfs, but do too the bad steel they use bamboo which comes from their native realm of ghyran to make weapons and armor. They would be close allies of the sylvanath. And some younger characters, obviously teens as about the youngest you could go, but they would appeal to teens and kids. If you get kids interested young, they will stick with the game. I've been playing since 7th grade, having started with Hordes and Warmachine. 

 

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1 hour ago, Pariah said:

No. I believe that even on lgbtq character could go a long way.  Also, Asian influence could make for a great army.  

I'm not the most well read of hobbyists, but I was under the impression there isn't a lot of mention of anyone's sexual orientation in the lore. I can't see how you'd introduce a character meeting those criteria without it feeling a bit... forced?

The new female Stormcast model may well be a fan of women, for example, but such information seems largely irrelevant in a game about fantasy warfare.

How would you envisage such communities being represented in model form?

Edited by AlphaKennyThing
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The fact that this thread is over 8 pages long and counting makes me really uncomfortable, and after the first couple posts on page 1 I refuse to read anything in here. 

Ms Scott is a professional, and she presents the material in a fantastic manner. I love watching the ‘how to’ videos and can’t wait for more. 

If you find yourself questioning her ability to teach people how to play AoS because she’s a girl or she’s not nerd enough (?), then nothing you say should ever be taken seriously again. 

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1 hour ago, Pariah said:

Social hobbies like wargaming are largely about interacting with friends...

More specifically, it's about waging war against your friends within the context of a miniature game.

There is the hobby, painting and lore side to it as well, but those particular itches can just as well be scratched by other hobbies and are not at the core of wargaming.

You'll find that the concept and act of waging war, even if it's just fictional, are more appealing to men in general - by a huge margin. The reason why the wargaming communities mostly consist of men is that the very nature of the product is more appealing to the tastes of men, not because the people within those communities are non-inclusive. It may very well be a real contributing  factor, but in the grand scheme of things it's probably a minor one. Of course, there are girls and women who do enjoy wargaming, but I' talking about the average person here, just to be clear.

Now, you can attempt to reel in new demographics by altering your product and I do believe that GW has done so quite effectively with some of their recent strategies (femcast, the upcoming comics series for children, hiring Becca), but they know full well what their core customer base is and they will not risk alienate it, which something like a focus on teen characters or LGBT content might very well do.

Also, Ogres have a distinct mongolian vibe to them, so asian themes are not without precedent ;)

Edited by CaptainNippon
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4 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

Not to get bogged down in specific examples, but for made up armies in a made up world based on real armies (or even a romanticized version of such) from the real world, there is always a choice of what elements to include and what elements to ignore/change.  Something like old school Empire is inspired by historical European armies, but is not (and never was) an attempt to duplicate those armies.  To make a trivial example - I doubt that XVIth century Landsknechts had functioning Battlemages.  If Battlemages maintain your immersion but female troopers break it, that says more about you than it does about Warhammer.

(No specific person is being referred to here as "you".)

But it is not a question of specific examples. There were no female landsknecht, no female viking warriors etc Not everything can be explained with "its our setting". Unless WFB/AoS humans have a totally different bone and muscle structure, and all their weapons or at least the majority only look like weapons from our world, but are made in a different way from magical materials we have a problem. SCE, chaos stuff, non humans races, I get. It is magic, is a the easy mode explanation, but free humans should at least work within some frame that makes it realistic within the setting.

 

10 minutes ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

I'm not the most well read of hobbyists, but I was under the impression there isn't a lot of mention of anyone's sexual orientation in the lore. I can't see how you'd introduce a character meeting those criteria without it feeling a bit... forced?

True, I don't think people care much about such stuff, any non battle traits in a battle focused setting is going to be less important. But I think you are partly wrong here. There are no problem with having a character of any kind in the lore or the game itself. There are great stories in the 80s and 90s comics that inspired WFB lore, about all kinds of people. I think people fear, and I think this is both true for people coming from minority and majority groups, that any "new" things is going to be done the way Iceman was done by marvel. ****** for sake of being ******, made so unlikable that people wondered who is the book for.

I remember reading my dads comic books from the 80s, and in it was a story about a group of people that were trying to raid a tomb or some city. Among the people in the party were two barbarians that kept to each other. In like the middle of the book we got to know they come from a warrior sociaty that was a bit like sparta, warriors kept harems of males&females etc Standard fantasy stuff. And then a twist, the two dudes were banished from their tribe, because they loved each other and did want to have harems . Awesome story telling. The dudes were cool characters without the readers knowing they are ******, when their characters had their own story arcs it only added to their depth and how awesome they were.    Non of the forced thing you worry about, good writing and good story.

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3 minutes ago, CaptainNippon said:

You'll find that the concept and act of waging war, even if it's just fictional, are more appealing to men in general - by a huge margin. The reason why the wargaming communities mostly consist of men is that the very nature of the product is more appealing to the tastes of men, not because the people within those communities are non-inclusive. It may very well be a real contributing  factor, but in the grand scheme of things it's probably a minor one. Of course, there are girls and women who do enjoy wargaming, but I' talking about the average person here, just to be clear.

So true. I also think that the more a group is in to the gaming, the harder it is to find a group of females to join it. The less painting, or self made lore is important to the group, the fewer female members there are going to be there. This doesn't of course mean there are no female tournament players, but that the number of such people is a lot smaller. I don't know about other countries, but in Poland there are few tournament players that are female, but if you check how many paint models, and I mean actual competition level of painting, not the stuff people like me do with their models. The female to male ratio is much better.

 

7 minutes ago, Paladin of Khorne said:

The fact that this thread is over 8 pages long and counting makes me really uncomfortable, and after the first couple posts on page 1 I refuse to read anything in here. 

Well I think it is good to know what one is uncomfortable about, before judging. Most of the post here aren't even about ms Becca.

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1 hour ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

I'm not the most well read of hobbyists, but I was under the impression there isn't a lot of mention of anyone's sexual orientation in the lore.

Yeah, you're only going to come across this one of two ways - occasional backstory about tragic lost love in descriptive text, and (more likely) reading Black Library fiction. Even then, it doesn't come up much. Like you say, it's not very relevant. LGBT characters aren't unheard of, though.

I was impressed with the way Gav Thorpe handled this topic in The Emperor Expects, where we learn this about a couple of characters almost incidentally through sections written from one of their perspectives and there isn't any big deal made out of it. It isn't just thrown in, either, because it adds depth and context to character scenes in the preceeding book and a small layer to a character arc later. It's all just part of the natural fibre of the story, which means he got it exactly right.

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1 hour ago, Paladin of Khorne said:

The fact that this thread is over 8 pages long and counting makes me really uncomfortable, and after the first couple posts on page 1 I refuse to read anything in here. 

Ms Scott is a professional, and she presents the material in a fantastic manner. I love watching the ‘how to’ videos and can’t wait for more. 

If you find yourself questioning her ability to teach people how to play AoS because she’s a girl or she’s not nerd enough (?), then nothing you say should ever be taken seriously again. 

If you read the thread instead of deliberately choosing to deny yourself the information it presents, you would see that nobody here had adopted the stance you suggest they have.

But that's ok. Don't let knowledge get in the way of a good rant.

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1 hour ago, CaptainNippon said:

GW has done so quite effectively with some of their recent strategies (femcast, the upcoming comics series for children, hiring Becca), but they know full well what their core customer base is

Again going back to my GW sales days, we used to be told that they target GW customer was a 14 year old boy. When questioned about why they wouldn't go after girls also, the overlords told us "when we run out of 14 year old boys to sell to, then we'll see who else there is."

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2 hours ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

I'm not the most well read of hobbyists, but I was under the impression there isn't a lot of mention of anyone's sexual orientation in the lore. I can't see how you'd introduce a character meeting those criteria without it feeling a bit... forced?

The new female Stormcast model may well be a fan of women, for example, but such information seems largely irrelevant in a game about fantasy warfare.

How would you envisage such communities being represented in model form?

Not in model form, it would have to be lore. And it doesn't have to be the defining thing about the character, just drop hints or reference it once and leave it at that.  Honestly, its not a top concern and will almost definitely be a while, I just partially wanted to see how people would react to idea, as amoungst some communities there would be a lot of pushback. 

The point CaptainNippon made  about alienating groups of players is a fair one, as GW would unfortunately most likely face a lot of angry gamers. However, I don't think a game about war is necessarily less appealing to females naturally, but more through societies teachings. Video games are getting more diverse, which mostly focus entirely on war. 

And while I agree with blueshirtman about old world armies for the most part, we are dealing with a setting that has so much potential, and there is no reason why human factions is AoS should have to match historical ones.  keep freeguild the same, but GW could release a new, creative take, which allows for better representation.

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