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33 minutes ago, AdamR said:

Am I the only person who thought she's got a really annoying voice?

I couldn't even get all the way through the video!

I couldn’t get on with her accent either 

13 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

Actually only Space Marines/Chaos Space Marines have no female members. Imperial Guard had Female Members in the First and only Tanith Regiment and there was a blister with a female catachan with Granade Launcher.

The Guard and Imperial Army before it has always been depicted as mixed there have been couple more female models than that over the years but the model line hasn’t really represented the background on that respect. 

I get the feeling that initially female and Male Stormcast were just going to look the same after all they are just covered in armour but it became apparent there was a market for more anatomically different models. 

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12 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

I also adore your citing of Skaven females (who are used as nothing except breeding machines!) as proof that GW does not have a sexism problem. Or Amazons, who never existed in models in any meaningful form outside of Blood Bowl. And you can call greenskins non-binary all you like (technically they're all fungus I guess), but they call themselves "lads" and "boys" and are always referred to as "he", so... I don't know who you're trying to kid there.

I could be coming out of left field with this opinion: I thought everything the Skaven do is EVIL. Sometimes for the sake of being evil too.

Amazons went the way of Bretonnia, Cathay, and most of the Old World. Something I would have liked to see.

It’s funny you focus on the term “Boyz”. They’re fungus, that identify as males. Or is that too close to mainstream? Why won’t you give them the courtesy of addressing them as such?

38 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Well, that's the baffling thing, isn't it? Why is a woman presenting a "how to play" video series for a tabletop game even remotely worth talking about? Answer: because "diversity" is a terrifying word to some people.

Thanks for painting everyone with the brush of anti-whateverism. Do you want to know the community doesn’t need? More people telling other people that we’re a bunch of racist, bigot, homophobes. 

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12 hours ago, Infeston said:

I wouldn't have thought that such a small thing like the underrepresentation of female players or female models could be such a huge thing for some people.

I think that it is because for people, unless they live in litteral basments never going out, it never stoped at the small things in other parts of daily life. Something starts with something small like a code of conduct between employees, and 15 years later you are made to attend an obligatory anti subcouncious -ism seminar. The thing with the books  and the over the top reaction to them was the same, a lot of people are drawing paralels to other mediums or hobbies, see a product not for them, but with a w40k that "hates guns", and they go insane. And what ever one likes it or not, it is understandable .

I mean if GW suddenly made an all blond only male SC chamber that spec in siege warfare aka building walls, a lot of other people would go crazy. I mean when I started my adventure with AoS, which wasn't that long ago, the talk on the net was something combo of GW games, animal furs and racism/sexism. Blew my mind, considering furs are like the iconic part of any fantasy setting.

 

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On that note, and to address something mentioned earlier.  the reason G A Y is caught by the censorship is nothing to do with a slight against LGBT.  As soon as people online stop using it as an insult I will take it out of the filter.  

Ah ok, doubt that is going to happen any time soon. Some insults are older can be traced in to XII century before christ, and they are still still insulting today.The censoring does make sense though considering all the legal issues and all.

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Who do you believe might be attempting to artificially warp the experience?

Well anyone who can make money out of it. So a company may not want to get a well orgenised protest targeting them. And large or small those things always hurt, specially if your a traded company.   Then there is people working in the companies, who may one day want to get a different job, and with media being mostly left, trying to be anti left lowers the chance of employment. Then there is people that makes a living out of outraged  culture.

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By censoring a word, you are essentially implicitly agreeing that word is negative and giving credance to the opinions of people who think being G A Y is actually a bad thing. 

yeah. I think it was Bill Burr that said that saying "then N word" is worse then actually saying the actual word, because it makes the people "say" the word in the their mind, and gives actual racists a-holes a blue print how to avoid problems etc Plus in the end this is ends up being untter confusing, there are ****** walks for "proud ******" and call a girl on the campus that and your out, saying bye to your scholership.

 

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11 hours ago, Urauloth said:

GW's working relationship with New Line wasn't a terrific experience from what I understand

Ever heard the tale of the first Arwen model? That one's a hoot and supports your thought.

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On topic: I don't think there were implications behind the video other than the marketing aspect... I assume that GW were probably only looking at the marketing impact it might have (= using geek & sundry), yet I suppose we all see things through self-perception lens which may bring up things that were not even the point initially... hence different interpretations.... 

Off topic: I think a lot of people lack the perspective on what the different factions and races represent. Orcs/Greenskin were based on hooligans, probably explaining why a bunch of fungus call themselves "boyz" and behave the way they do. The Empire/Free Guild is probably based on your average XVIth century Landsknechts, which were not reputed for having many females in their ranks... Just like Bretonnia is Arthurian in essence, were peasants and knights are males and damsels are females (they are present as exactly that). Or Skaven organization is reminiscent of many insects(?) types (tunnelling, "mother/queen/matriarch" breeding, warrior class/worker class, etc... = like ants). Or the Undead calling upon various horror myths (ghouls, vampires, banshees, ...). Or in w40, SoB being an extension of the Jeanne d'Arc concept. Or Eldar/Elves being very androgynous making the distinction difficult and very gender/mixed (in many kits, the only thing that differentiates them are the "torsos with/without developped b.r.e.a.st.s", or the WE 6th ed. line being 50/50). Not to mention that gender is simply not a thing in many cases (Tyranids, Necrons, etc...). These are all representing archetypes, and are supposed to reflect that.

I could got on but the point is that I highly doubt that GW's preocupation when designing a faction/race or miniature line was centered around males/females, not because sexism/gender inequality or whatever,  but simply due to the factions/race representing archetypes, independent of the social IRL reality.  This doesn't mean there shouldn't be more female miniatures or anything like that, but rather a pretty reasonable explanation on why it is what it is: Fantasy/Sci-Fi referencing real groups/myths/stories in an over-the-top way. If this is supposed to be avoided and teared-down in the future because of certain opinions is another question... 

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Orks don’t actually call themselves “Boyz” as we understand it they don’t speak English for a start. It’s just used to represent the straightforward way they think and talk. They don’t have genders they wouldn’t even consider them a thing (there’s a quote from an Eldar Farseer on why they wouldn’t do that amough other things) they don’t present as anything other than Orks. 

I do find the whole thing a bit paradoxical really and one hand you’ve got the criticism of boob plates and chain mail bikinis but coupled with a refusal to acknowledge that anything  not modelled with very obvious female anatomy could be female*. KO for example are covered in armour and boiler suits surely they could be female.   

* and it always has to be Human female anatomy regardless of the species it seems 

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5 hours ago, fredster4050 said:

Great discussion, mostly very polite. Cleary a range of views that are not going to be reconciled here or today, time to shut it down for now?

I'm pretty much always surprised when I see forum users (other than a topic OP or a mod) suggesting a lock. Why? What's the point of cutting off a discussion in a discussion forum?

Then we have this topic which you even say is great and polite ... But still want it locked.

Real head scratcher, that.

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7 hours ago, HollowHills said:

You only have to look at the Facebook group Feminist 40k to see examples of extremism in our hobby.

you look at some of the stuff that gets posted on 4chan, spikeybits, etc in the form of screenshots from the group and you can see they hold some views that many would disagree with. Views which for some would be damaging to the hobby in general.

 

Do you think maybe stuff posted to spikeybitz or 4chan(lol!) Has been cherrypicked at all?

Do you think maybe it's even easier to find extremism in the form of people claiming sjw conspiracies here, and on BoLS where people are writing ten page rants about why Stormcast shouldn't be female?

 

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Someone mentioned Marvel,

I don't read comics

Do you think maybe that's where a lot of the outrage comes from? People who just hear things and pass it on?

 

I see the headlines about female Thor and black Iron Man and it's no surprise people are upset. It comes across as the company saying to their long term audience "this isn't for you anymore"

Why would something not be for someone anymore because a hero changed?

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4 minutes ago, muggins said:

Do you think maybe stuff posted to spikeybitz or 4chan(lol!) Has been cherrypicked at all?

Do you think maybe it's even easier to find extremism in the form of people claiming sjw conspiracies here, and on BoLS where people are writing ten page rants about why Stormcast shouldn't be female?

 

I'm sure that to some extent people are selecting comments that reinforce their already held views. On the other hand said FB requires you to pass an entrance screening where you have to state your understanding and supporting of feminism before you can even join the group. Furthermore, the very existence of a pressure group designed to encourage left wing social justice values in the hobby is something potentially problematic in itself. 

As for the comics if a character changes radically from someone you can identify with to someone completely different and the company starts talking about diversity you can put two and two together.

Im not saying I don't want women involved with the hobby or female representation in models. What I am saying is I don't want a general trend where if you don't agree with a certain left wing world view then you are relentlessly censored and attacked as a bigot to have a place in Warhammer. I think you only have to look around the web to see there are plenty of people who would agree. 

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3 hours ago, SuperHappyTime said:

I could be coming out of left field with this opinion: I thought everything the Skaven do is EVIL. Sometimes for the sake of being evil too.

Amazons went the way of Bretonnia, Cathay, and most of the Old World. Something I would have liked to see.

It’s funny you focus on the term “Boyz”. They’re fungus, that identify as males. Or is that too close to mainstream? Why won’t you give them the courtesy of addressing them as such?

Thanks for painting everyone with the brush of anti-whateverism. Do you want to know the community doesn’t need? More people telling other people that we’re a bunch of racist, bigot, homophobes. 

What is anti-whateverism, and when did you I paint you with its brush? I also didn't call anyone racist, or bigoted, or a homophobe. That said, consider how absolutely minor the changes GW are making are (books for children! Marketing with a woman! Some female models! People who aren't white men in a comic!), and consider how appalling the reaction has been to these small changes. Why has it been so over the top? I cannot think of many reasons that don't boil down to something very unpleasant indeed. 

I personally have no problem with Skaven females being breeding machines- as you say, the Skaven are evil, and this is an evil thing to do.  I have no problem with them not having had a miniature line for Amazons. I have no problem with Orcs/Orks/Orruks clearly being basically dudes in spite of anyone's attempts to say that they're mushrooms. I don't think anyone does! But none of those things demonstrate that GW has a lack of diversity when it comes to its model range. That's not the end of the world either- what they are doing is the right way to go about it, which is to quietly ensure, without fanfare or announcement, that various models in various units are women (like in the new Idoneth or Stormcast). As long as you have a bit of everything , the extremes of the spectrum (like the clichéd sex fantasy that is the Witch Aelves) are ok. If the extremes are all that exists, that's when we have a problem.

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+++ Mod Hat On +++

Very friendly reminder for all of you (especially @SuperHappyTime & @Kirjava13) - Can I ask you to think about what you are writing and how you are responding to this thread. This topic has been bringing up some points that I think you need to discuss but I think some of you may be getting a bit over zealous with your replies. Can you please knock it back a notch

Cheers

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8 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Very friendly reminder for all of you (especially @SuperHappyTime & @Kirjava13) - Can I ask you to think about what you are writing and how you are responding to this thread. This topic has been bringing up some points that I think you need to discuss but I think some of you may be getting a bit over zealous with your replies. Can you please knock it back a notch

Cheers

Yessir! /salute

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29 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Orks don’t actually call themselves “Boyz” as we understand it they don’t speak English for a start. It’s just used to represent the straightforward way they think and talk. They don’t have genders they wouldn’t even consider them a thing (there’s a quote from an Eldar Farseer on why they wouldn’t do that amough other things) they don’t present as anything other than Orks. 

I do find the whole thing a bit paradoxical really and one hand you’ve got the criticism of boob plates and chain mail bikinis but coupled with a refusal to acknowledge that anything  not modelled with very obvious female anatomy could be female*. KO for example are covered in armour and boiler suits surely they could be female.   

* and it always has to be Human female anatomy regardless of the species it seems 

Assuming your post is referred to mine, I think it is pretty clear that Orcs don't enter in the male/female dichotomy as they are supposed to be fungus. However, I mentioned "boyz" just as I could have mentioned "ladz" or any other similar word used in the fluff as a reference to the hooligan aspect,  since they are based on that archetype, whom (I think) use those kind of terms. Nothing to do with gender, just an explanation on how Orcs are represented in their context.

I don't find it paradoxical at all. I simply mention that GW has different torso designs on many elf/eldar kits, some of which seem to have developped b.reasts while others don't. If these are supposed to represent females or not, I do not judge. Anything is fine for me. They can be intersexual as far as I'm concerned.

 So I do not have any "refusal to aknowledge anything", you just assumed that for some reason that eludes me..... Obviously anyone can say their KO covered in armour are female. Or that their Stormcast Judicators are all female too because when covered in a full thick armour, the physical differences between male/female are not necessarily visible on the model. If people are happy believing so, sounds great to me.

But if this is fine, and we shouldn't make assumptions on gender representation through physical aspect.... why would people ask for "more female SCE models" like Naeve? Can't SCE be female without their armour resembling certain female attributes? Are they actually asking for more of the dreaded boob plate??!!! Maaaaybe?? But... but... women need no boob plaaaates to feel represented!!!11!!1!!!!*

 

 

 

 

*Disclaimer: last part is a light hearted joke pointing out certain lack of argument consistency that often show up in these discussions. No ill intentions nor directed to anyone in particular. I'm ok with everyone as long as they don't make false accusations, as it's been the case. Let people have/think whatever they want.

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10 minutes ago, VBS said:

Assuming your post is referred to mine, I think it is pretty clear that Orcs don't enter in the male/female dichotomy as they are supposed to be fungus. However, I mentioned "boyz" just as I could have mentioned "ladz" or any other similar word used in the fluff as a reference to the hooligan aspect,  since they are based on that archetype, whom (I think) use those kind of terms. Nothing to do with gender, just an explanation on how Orcs are represented in their context.

I don't find it paradoxical at all. I simply mention that GW has different torso designs on many elf/eldar kits, some of which seem to have developped b.reasts while others don't. If these are supposed to represent females or not, I do not judge. Anything is fine for me. They can be intersexual as far as I'm concerned.

 So I do not have any "refusal to aknowledge anything", you just assumed that for some reason that eludes me..... Obviously anyone can say their KO covered in armour are female. Or that their Stormcast Judicators are all female too because when covered in a full thick armour, the physical differences between male/female are not necessarily visible on the model. If people are happy believing so, sounds great to me.

But if this is fine, and we shouldn't make assumptions on gender representation through physical aspect.... why would people ask for "more female SCE models" like Naeve? Can't SCE be female without their armour resembling certain female attributes? Are they actually asking for more of the dreaded boob plate??!!! Maaaaybe?? But... but... women need no boob plaaaates to feel represented!!!11!!1!!!!*

 

 

 

 

*Disclaimer: last part is a light hearted joke pointing out certain lack of argument consistency that often show up in these discussions. No ill intentions nor directed to anyone in particular. I'm ok with everyone as long as they don't make false accusations, as it's been the case. Let people have/think whatever they want.

I wasn’t referring to you I’d have had the decency to tag you in had that been the case. I haven’t read the post you refer to and haven’t accused you of anything just made an observation. 

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53 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I'm sure that to some extent people are selecting comments that reinforce their already held views. On the other hand said FB requires you to pass an entrance screening where you have to state your understanding and supporting of feminism before you can even join the group.

I don't really see how "you need to be a feminist to join this FB group for feminists" is unreasonable or sinister, a lot of political and philosophical groups have similar policies to keep trolls out of their internal discussion and organizing spaces. Seems like a non-issue tbh.

Besides, if the content that bothers you is walled off in a small FB group you can't even gain access to without duplicity, you could just... ignore it? They'd never do that on BoLS or 4chan though, because cherry-picking fringe comments to stir up alarmism and outrage is a well that never runs dry.

I mean, if we really want a discussion about political interests affecting hobby circles, it might be worst shedding some light on the extremists on sites like 4chan prodice guides to framing far-right ideas so they can be watered down and pitched to "normies", and the fact that "geek culture" genuinely is seen as a serious political battlefield in an ongoing "culture war" by the likes of Andrew Anglin, but nobody wants that.

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5 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I wasn’t referring to you I’d have had the decency to tag you in had that been the case. I haven’t read the post you refer to and haven’t accused you of anything just made an observation. 

My apologies. Since it was posted right after my post (which is often used as answer without quote on certain forums) and structured in a way that somewhat mirrored the points I brought up, it really gave the impression. Sorry again. 

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1 hour ago, HollowHills said:

I'm sure that to some extent people are selecting comments that reinforce their already held views. On the other hand said FB requires you to pass an entrance screening where you have to state your understanding and supporting of feminism before you can even join the group. Furthermore, the very existence of a pressure group designed to encourage left wing social justice values in the hobby is something potentially problematic in itself. 

As for the comics if a character changes radically from someone you can identify with to someone completely different and the company starts talking about diversity you can put two and two together.

Im not saying I don't want women involved with the hobby or female representation in models. What I am saying is I don't want a general trend where if you don't agree with a certain left wing world view then you are relentlessly censored and attacked as a bigot to have a place in Warhammer. I think you only have to look around the web to see there are plenty of people who would agree. 

I wouldn't say feminism in 40k or whatever it is is problematic at all. It's a tiny group used by people on 4chan, comments sections, and Twitter to say "See! The hobby is under attack on a large scale!" and Ree about SJW conspiracies.

Probably best for me to drop the whole comics thing because it doesn't relate to Age of Sigmar and there's a lot of bluster from people who don't even read comic books and want to be outraged.

Regarding people agreeing with the conspiracy theories, I don't really see many people agreeing at all.

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1 hour ago, Kirjava13 said:

What is anti-whateverism, and when did you I paint you with its brush? I also didn't call anyone racist, or bigoted, or a homophobe. That said, consider how absolutely minor the changes GW are making are (books for children! Marketing with a woman! Some female models! People who aren't white men in a comic!), and consider how appalling the reaction has been to these small changes. Why has it been so over the top? I cannot think of many reasons that don't boil down to something very unpleasant indeed. 

I personally have no problem with Skaven females being breeding machines- as you say, the Skaven are evil, and this is an evil thing to do.  I have no problem with them not having had a miniature line for Amazons. I have no problem with Orcs/Orks/Orruks clearly being basically dudes in spite of anyone's attempts to say that they're mushrooms. I don't think anyone does! But none of those things demonstrate that GW has a lack of diversity when it comes to its model range. That's not the end of the world either- what they are doing is the right way to go about it, which is to quietly ensure, without fanfare or announcement, that various models in various units are women (like in the new Idoneth or Stormcast). As long as you have a bit of everything , the extremes of the spectrum (like the clichéd sex fantasy that is the Witch Aelves) are ok. If the extremes are all that exists, that's when we have a problem.

It’s an overreaction, when not a counterreaction. And this isn’t just Marvel, but it has been going on since Gamergate (including the most recent inductee Star Wars), they’re just the worst offenders. I didn’t want to bring this up on the AoS forums, because it’s not the right place. It’s beyond race/gender swaps though, it’s one sided political ideals being pushed. 

Regarding women in media, I want a boss to choose the best person for the job first. Race/Gender/-uality shouldn’t matter, ever. Personality, sure, don’t hire jerks. That’s part of the job. Building the Miniatures, the same rules applIf they want 8/10 SCE to be female, if they look great, I don’t care.

I also take issue with is the idea that “AoS/40K/GW products aren’t diverse.” The range of products currently tells me that it is. And they aren’t done creating new races with new ideas.

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19 minutes ago, Urauloth said:

I mean, if we really want a discussion about political interests affecting hobby circles, it might be worst shedding some light on the extremists on sites like 4chan prodice guides to framing far-right ideas so they can be watered down and pitched to "normies", and the fact that "geek culture" genuinely is seen as a serious political battlefield in an ongoing "culture war" by the likes of Andrew Anglin, but nobody wants that.

It's certainly a problem. I've had a laugh at your classic "x is an incel/cuck and y is a chad meme" with regard to AoS and I do check 4chan because they often get leaked images faster than anywhere else on the web. However there are clearly people on there who think it's totally acceptable to hold extreme right wing views such as open racism, homophobia and sexism. I'm not advocating that at all and it's excellent that we can have a discussion here without those kind of views being tolerated. 

That said I personally spent a lot of time in an academic environment which had a heavy bias towards a specific ideology of what diversity, feminism and racism meant which went beyond what many more politically moderate people would consider standard. Advancing or indicating views outside that paradigm often lead to personal attacks i.e. "you're a bigot" rather than any actual reasoned discussion. 

I do believe I've seen those left wing based pressure groups exert influence on media such as video gaming and I don't want to see it happen in Warhammer. I hope that makes a position clear and explains certain concerns.

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Theres a lot of greenskins equal fungi talk going on. Is it official that AoS greenskins are the same as their 40k, Mad Max counterparts or is it possible to one day see some green jubblees st some point, running around, slaying sons and daughters of Sigmar?

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Just now, Vasshpit said:

Theres a lot of greenskins equal fungi talk going on. Is it official that AoS greenskins are the same as their 40k, Mad Max counterparts or is it possible to one day see some green jubblees st some point, running around, slaying sons and daughters of Sigmar?

It was never official for Warhammer Fantasy, and it still isn't official for AoS.

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5 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

Theres a lot of greenskins equal fungi talk going on. Is it official that AoS greenskins are the same as their 40k, Mad Max counterparts or is it possible to one day see some green jubblees st some point, running around, slaying sons and daughters of Sigmar?

Nope Orks only at this stage. I live in hope for an interesting Moonclan tending the Orruk fungi nurseries narrative however. 

(Bloodbowl Orc cheerleaders may provide you wish) 

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5 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Nope Orks only at this stage. I live in hope for an interesting Moonclan tending the Orruk fungi nurseries narrative however. 

(Bloodbowl Orc cheerleaders may provide you wish) 

Could be interesting but I do hope they differentiate the two settings some. 

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