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Let's talk about Endless Spells


Aginor

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I never even really thought about the utility of jamming movement with these yet.   I think the palisade might be amazing if it ends up working out that they need to walk around and happen to not be able to dispel it if they want to stick to their plan.

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It is hard to tell how big it is. But it looks like it is 160-180mm long or so, and even if it is only 1" high (and if there are no rules that say you can walk through it) then it already blocks movement of slow units well enough to be annoying for the enemy.

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2 minutes ago, Barkanaut said:

I don't like how SCE look. A very boring army and while the wizards improved the SCE look they still do nothing for me. 

Same here to be honest, which is why I am a bit sad that my Seraphon can only ally with SCE and nobody else. :(

But at least Seraphon have units for all rules (except long ranged artillery that is)

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4 minutes ago, Aginor said:

Same here to be honest, which is why I am a bit sad that my Seraphon can only ally with SCE and nobody else. :(

But at least Seraphon have units for all rules (except long ranged artillery that is)

My poor KO got hit by the nerf bat. I hope GW starts listening to feedback better in AoS like 40k.  Of the brand new AoS armies KO are easily just not what I envisioned. For most of their existence their ships have been basically useless. They just aren't good enough. We need a dedicated combat ship. We also need melee troops too and access to more anti-magic. The ships got points decreases but it might not be enough to make up for the warden nerfs. 

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1 hour ago, Aginor said:

Same here to be honest, which is why I am a bit sad that my Seraphon can only ally with SCE and nobody else. :(

But at least Seraphon have units for all rules (except long ranged artillery that is)

To be fair a lot of the alliances are basically just the old armies before they were broken up into fragments. Seraphon avoided that and remained a single army, so they've got all their functional parts. Elves have loads of allies, but most of them just let you ally with former parts of the once big HE or DE armies. Only difference being the new Deepkin army.

 

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Yes please not let's focus again on the non-uses of the spells (i.e. for kharadron) but on the uses for the spells or else we will get bogged down.

All I know is that I'm looking forward to planting the prismatic pallisade in front if my friend's warp lightning cannon that always kills my general. 

Take that Luke!

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I personally favor the Gimnids and the Spell portals. The Double balls do great damage and have really nice range as mentioned earlier. They throw out great force reducing effects that make them pretty hard to ignore.  Deepkin with these double trouble balls can get some pretty high levels of -1 to hit covering multiple units, nuturer armies for 2 or 3 turns. 

The spell portals have a great early use of extending the range of pretty much all of your wizards, and allow you to hide your wizards in the corner away from enemy dispelling models. On top of that it's really hard for your opponent to use these against you right away outside of a predatory spell.  You have to be within 1" in your hero phasing. meaning as along as you don't go out of your way to let the enemy wizard start his turn in range of the mirrors you are setting up. You'll get a turn of free casting threw the mirrors. Turning some  rather lack luster turn 1s from wizard heavy list, into something that can really start firing all all cylinders out of the gate. 
 

The spell portal currently has a loop hole that lets you just threw it ontop of a balewind. Since you can set up the balewind on the otherside of the portal and throw your wizard on top. Also on the topic of the balewinds they don't give you cover any more, but outside cover effects can stack with the balewind's save bonus meaning you can get some durable wizards up there if need be, maybe makes a case for applying mystic shield onto that said wizard if they also ahve a decent ranged attack or damage spell. A slann or kroak up there can really generate a good number of extra summoning pts that will quickly pay for the vortex. 

The Coggs get an honorable mention here as well. They are alittle more expensive than i'd like for what they do, but.... it lets you effectively donate  the spell of one wizard over to another, and any editional turns the cogs and the wizard stay up it starts to bank some pretty decent interest. That said it breaks some of my rules for what makes for a good endless spell. 

The other endless spells don't really wow me, As they each need alittle something else that either exist and i dont see it yet, it doesn't it exist, or the combos that do just arn't strong enough. Most of the other endlesspells are just abit too slow, and scream at the top of thier lungs to be played turn 2 or 3 play, being cast in ackward ways.

You need a strong right away use for these things. If you take to long your wizards can all be render in effective before you get the chance to use them, or thier ideal situations will pass you by.  For instance: Soul snares, primadmatice palisade,  always give your opponent the chance to dispel before they can take effect.  Both of which could work as great parts of a good and powerful stall plan however, but other things seems to do this maybe better like good old hordes, even more so with summonable hordes.

Too short and effective range:  Gravetide, Purple sun, Burning head all have shorter ranges than arcane missle had for about the same amount of damage out put (VS casting chance)on the first cast. From there they are likely well within dispel range.  So, just bad arcane missles that are banking on some sort of long term staying power to become useful, but also abit force you to stay away. 

I don't remember the pendulum, but i do remember it can back some serious damage out put. The only problem is that i fear it might really only pack a serious punch once and then be gone, and is it worth the points for D6 moretal wounds once?? i guess if you get it into a really nice spot. So it's about as good as the wizard you use to cast it. 

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10 hours ago, Aginor said:

It is hard to tell how big it is. But it looks like it is 160-180mm long or so, and even if it is only 1" high (and if there are no rules that say you can walk through it) then it already blocks movement of slow units well enough to be annoying for the enemy.

I saw the whole set earlier today, but I was too busy a) drooling over the swords, b) eyeing up the burning head for a Nighthaunt paintjob, and c) being staggered by the size of the purple sun to actually check how big the palisade is. Big though. 160mm Sounds right, it certainly isn't smaller.

You definitely can't move through or over it, since it isn't terrain. Since we're discussing its function as an obstruction to enemy units, don't forget that it also potentially blinds nearby units for -1 to hit at the start of every turn! Your opponent is really going to want to get rid of a well placed palisade, imo.

e; looking on the MS GW store page at the picture with the Ironjawz and Seraphon, those saurus are on 32mm rounds and standing right next to eachother and really close to the palisade. I think it's actually 180mm.

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The spells follow the normal rules of movement right (in that sense that you can't end the move on top of other models) ? So if I spread my 40 freeguild guard into formation taking up a big area, it's very hard to move the spells over them to  my more important units? 

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25 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

The spells follow the normal rules og movement right? So if I spread my 40 freeguild guard into formation taking up a big area, it's very hard to move the spells over them to  my more important units? 

Yes and no. They don’t have to fly in a straight line, except the Pendulum. So while the spells can’t go right over them they could move ontop of the first model in the unit and then change direction with the rest of their move.

 

I really like the Cogs. Don’t knock the ability to add 2” move and +2” to charge rolls on a crucial turn. Obviously got to be a bit careful that it benefits you over your opponent, but at the right time it’s great. Think of all your “appear on the table 9” away” units. Suddenly it’s only a 7” charge and you can reroll some if you have the command points, and nearby heroes.

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1 hour ago, stickybluetoffee said:

I really like the Cogs. Don’t knock the ability to add 2” move and +2” to charge rolls on a crucial turn. Obviously got to be a bit careful that it benefits you over your opponent, but at the right time it’s great. Think of all your “appear on the table 9” away” units. Suddenly it’s only a 7” charge and you can reroll some if you have the command points, and nearby heroes. 

I was thinking the same thing. Melee armies with low moves could profit from them.

Thinking of my Skeletons or my friend's Ironjawz there.

The cogs are unfortunately not cheap though (60), probably because of their second mode (adding a spell).

Hmmm OK, crazy time again:

My Slann casts BWV and a Starpriest next to him casts the cogs.

The Slann uses his spells for summoning. That will give him 9 summoning points, +1 because the Slann is general, + 1d3 from the Astrolith which might be enough to summon 20 Skinks.

Then in the next hero phase the Slann controls the cogs, adding a spell. Now the Slann has five spells and spends them for...

summoning!

15 summoning points from spell slots, 1 from the Slann being general, 1d3 from the Astrolith. So that's another 20 Skinks and some spare points to use in the next round. In case he had only 11 points in the first round he definitely has enough points now, so either way there are now 40 Skinks on the table. Either 10+10+20 or 20+20

Hmmm might be worth spending 100 points as it pretty much means that by the end of round two there will be 40 Skinks on the table, and even more coming in turn three, even when the Slann doesn't use all his spells for summoning.

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Next example is for Destruction.

Ironjawz can have Bonesplitterz and Greenskinz as allies, right?

Either the Great Shaman or the Wurrgog Prophet could be a good ally there, casting some endless spells to help the Waagh advance.

But even the IJ's own Weirdnob Shaman can do something there. Up to this point he had one very unreliable spell and one with short range. Not too great. But using endless spells he got a bit better.

Chronomatic Cogs would be an option to speed the Orruks up.

The Palisade might help them not getting shot too easily, but that one is a bit tricky because it might also be in the way. So a range extension using the Spell Portal might help.

The Spell Portal also helps to improve Green Puke. So if you have a second wizard (might even be a cheap Wardokk) cast the Portal next to the Weirdnob Shaman, then Green Puke suddenly got a lot better as it isn't cast from the Weirdnob anymore but from 18" closer to the enemy.

Just some ideas. I am sure we can find more. A Pendulum or Geminids could also be a good choice, or even the Emerald Lifeswarm.

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2 hours ago, Jamopower said:

The spells follow the normal rules of movement right (in that sense that you can't end the move on top of other models) ? So if I spread my 40 freeguild guard into formation taking up a big area, it's very hard to move the spells over them to  my more important units? 

Yeah you can basicly make a 0" move where you fly over the target unit(s) and then go back to where you started. 

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52 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Yeah you can basicly make a 0" move where you fly over the target unit(s) and then go back to where you started. 

Yes, but the point was to shield the important units with the horde. D3 or d6 mortals is not that bad for 40 freeguild (or skeletons). 

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That's right.

Armies that fear endless spells ruining them should try to bring cheap screening with them to block their squishy stuff from the spells.

And then of course try to bring their unbinding units close enough to prevent too many spells from flying around in the first place.

The third thing is always going second when they can, to have better control over the endless spells.

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18 hours ago, Aginor said:

Same here to be honest, which is why I am a bit sad that my Seraphon can only ally with SCE and nobody else. :(

But at least Seraphon have units for all rules (except long ranged artillery that is)

I feel that in a strange way the spells *are* the allies for Seraphon. Finally the Slann has offensive options!

Personally I think the utility spells will be the best but predatory spells could be brutal if you take multiples. With cheap starpriests teleporting across the table you could conceivably drop 3 or more predatory spells in someone's lap and if they are castled up to defend against Rippers that is going to wreck a lot of stuff.

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7 minutes ago, tokek said:

I feel that in a strange way the spells *are* the allies for Seraphon. Finally the Slann has offensive options!

Personally I think the utility spells will be the best but predatory spells could be brutal if you take multiples. With cheap starpriests teleporting across the table you could conceivably drop 3 or more predatory spells in someone's lap and if they are castled up to defend against Rippers that is going to wreck a lot of stuff.

That's way too much of a points investment into it. The Endless spells start adding up pretty quickly when you're taking more than one. At most, I think you'd see 2 in Seraphon lists - Geminids and/or balewind or cogs mostly. Maybe one of the cheaper spells instead of cogs or a balewind (or instead of geminids if you have no points left over, but Geminids might be too strong to pass up unless you're trying for more dedicated summoning): quicksilver swords are pretty good vs chaos armies, Soulsnare shackles and Prismatic Palisade are basically "must dispel" targets for the enemy with some nice utility if they aren't dispelled, and Pendulum is the most reliable for damage, seeing as it can't get sent back at you if you don't keep control of it, which is a huge deal if you're only bringing one of the predatory spells, cast it successfully, then get the option for a double turn.

Burning head probably won't be seen at all, since it's worse for damage than most of the others, and the buff it provides to nearby units is usually a downside. Purple sun is almost strictly worse than geminids or pendulum and costs 20 more pts than both of them combined. Lifeswarm is probably too low impact, but it might see some use anyway in lists that can really benefit from the healing.

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10 minutes ago, Asamu said:

That's way too much of a points investment into it. The Endless spells start adding up pretty quickly when you're taking more than one. At most, I think you'd see 2 in Seraphon lists - Geminids and/or balewind or cogs mostly. Maybe one of the cheaper spells instead of cogs or a balewind (or instead of geminids if you have no points left over, but Geminids might be too strong to pass up unless you're trying for more dedicated summoning): quicksilver swords are pretty good vs chaos armies, Soulsnare shackles and Prismatic Palisade are basically "must dispel" targets for the enemy with some nice utility if they aren't dispelled, and Pendulum is the most reliable for damage, seeing as it can't get sent back at you if you don't keep control of it, which is a huge deal if you're only bringing one of the predatory spells, cast it successfully, then get the option for a double turn.

Burning head probably won't be seen at all, since it's worse for damage than most of the others, and the buff it provides to nearby units is usually a downside. Purple sun is almost strictly worse than geminids or pendulum and costs 20 more pts than both of them combined. Lifeswarm is probably too low impact, but it might see some use anyway in lists that can really benefit from the healing.

Maybe it is too expensive, maybe not. Only time on the table will tell. I could take 3 predatory spells for the same as it used to cost me to summon a unit of Razordons - which was never that hard to fit into a list if I wanted it.  In principle that could be averaging 9 mortal wounds onto each affected unit which is really not much fun at all for some armies. AOE mortal wounds are very nasty and the threat of them will really change the way that your opponent deploys and moves, is that worth 120 points? It may be, I certainly think it is worth trying out a few times.

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People around her that test the rules say that the endless spells are good for magic heavy armies, and not really worth it for factions with 1 wizard. Not sure how true that is, but the guys are much better players then I am, so at least a bit of it is true. The guy that plays LoN says that chains and mirrors worked well for him.

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