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Let's talk about Endless Spells


Aginor

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On 6/16/2018 at 11:41 AM, Asamu said:

Palisade is 10 pts more than maelstrom and soulsnare, so it's a small enough investment that if you have extra points and don't want any of the others, it's pretty reasonable.

Malevolent Maelstrom and Soulsnare Shackles are the cheapest Endless spells, at half the points of geminids/pendulum/new balewind, and will probably be popular because of it. They're cheap to cast and have reliable enough effects. Soulsnare shackles reducing movement is excellent for some armies, and they cover a large area, though you'll need spell portal or a balewind to compensate for the 12" range unless you're Seraphon with an astrolith.

Geminids and Pendulum are probably the best predatory spells IMO. Geminids -1 to hit and -1 attacks and 2d3 mortal wounds, and it has enough range that you don't have to worry too much about it getting thrown back into you. Pendulum can't change direction, so there is no risk at all of it hitting your own units.

Purple sun is probably the worst, just because of the point cost. It's over double the cost of Geminids or Pendulum, which are both more reliable and significantly better against heroes, monsters, and small/elite units, which are generally the main targets for spells. Purple sun is only better against hordes of 24+ models compared to the alternatives.

Spellportal and Cogs will probably both see plenty of play, but it's probably too much of an investment to bring both (they both cost the same, and only Purple Sun is more expensive to bring). Spellportal and Balewind are effectively exclusive to each-other, as you need to be within 1" of the spellportal to use it. Spell Portal gives more range and safety to the wizard, but costs 20 pts more (balewind dropped by 60pts).

It states on the card for the vortex that it and the caster are treated as a single model.

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5 hours ago, Aginor said:

But what is wrong with the shackles? Why do you expect a change coming for them?

They currently cost far too little for the massive game impact they have, cutting movement in half and also blocking movement with good placement reliably is a huge deal.

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14 minutes ago, WindstormSCR said:

They currently cost far too little for the massive game impact they have, cutting movement in half and also blocking movement with good placement reliably is a huge deal.

Sure, they are by no means bad, but they hardly do any damage and can very easily be dispelled (casting value of 5). With the new FAQ armies with range buffs (DoK or Seraphon for example, or anyone using a BWV) cannot put them into/near enemy territory anymore and cannot cast them from outside dispel range anymore, and they cannot be cast through a Spell Portal either.

I think that already impacts their usefulness a bit.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Question to those that might know.

The Malign sorcery book states that you cannot cast an endless spell if you do not have an available model for it. In the example given on page 53, it states "If you have two balewind vortex models in your collection, and both are on the battlefield, you cannot attempt to cast summon balewind vortex again until at least one of them has been removed from the battlefield."

This would imply that it is possible to have multiples of each endless spell under 1 players control. 

The question is this, if this is possible, do you pay for multiples of the same spell, I.e 2x30 = 60pts for a=2x suffocating gravetides? Then can you cast 1 on turn one and then the second on turn 2 having both active? 

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5 minutes ago, Mohawk_Monkey said:

Question to those that might know.

The Malign sorcery book states that you cannot cast an endless spell if you do not have an available model for it. In the example given on page 53, it states "If you have two balewind vortex models in your collection, and both are on the battlefield, you cannot attempt to cast summon balewind vortex again until at least one of them has been removed from the battlefield."

This would imply that it is possible to have multiples of each endless spell under 1 players control. 

The question is this, if this is possible, do you pay for multiples of the same spell, I.e 2x30 = 60pts for a=2x suffocating gravetides? Then can you cast 1 on turn one and then the second on turn 2 having both active? 

The subtlety you are missing is that Malign Sorcery plays differently in default (open/narrative) play and Matched Play.  In the default setting, you just cast all the endless spells you like.  In Matched Play you pay points for them, and can only have 1 at a time.

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On 7/23/2018 at 8:25 PM, Circus of Paint said:

They also clarified that the Aetherwind Pendulum only goes forward as well.

As I said.

 

Is it just me or is the malevolent maelstrom amazing in shutting down the enemies magic?

if placed right you get 2 unbinds per spell, or the enemy wastes a spellslot for unbinding while you can stay out of range of the effect

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11 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

The subtlety you are missing is that Malign Sorcery plays differently in default (open/narrative) play and Matched Play.  In the default setting, you just cast all the endless spells you like.  In Matched Play you pay points for them, and can only have 1 at a time.

Thanks, I hadn't seen previous postings in the thread. 

Next Question:

Arkhan the black wants to cast suffocating grave tide through a spell portal his lowly Necromancer summoned within an inch of him. The designer's commentary says:

"Q: Do things that increase the range of a caster’s spells also apply to the distance at which an endless spell can be set up from the caster? A: No. Things that increase the range of a spell’s effects do not apply to the distance at which an endless spell can be set up. By the same token, things that allow you to measure the range of a spell from a different location to the caster cannot be used when setting up an endless spell.

Which of these is true?

A) Arkhan cannot cast endless spells through a spell portal at all.

B) Arkhan can cast suffocating grave tide through the spell portal using the second portal as the point of origin, setting up the gravetide wholly within 4" of the spell portal, however you cannot use Arkhan's command ability to increase the set-up range by 6" from the portal.

C) Arkhan can cast suffocating grave tide through the spell portal using the second portal as the point of origin, he can use Arkhan's command ability to increase the set-up range by 6" from the portal.

D) Arkhan casts suffocating grave tide on his side of a spell portal created by his Necromancer. He sets it up wholly within 4" of himself, then he moves it through
the closest spell portal
. The grave tide then re appears 6" from the second portal finishing its move as per the design commentary.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I understand from the previous part of the discussion, that they are trying to avoid infinite loops with the "set-up" wording. 

I think it works like "D" but want to see if it is not "B". I'm unsure as, i'm pretty sure the Spell portal relates to the second part,  ("By the same token, things that allow you to measure the range of a spell from a different location to the caster") cannot be used when setting up an endless spell.

However the first part, ("Things that increase the range of a spell’s effects do not apply to the distance at which an endless spell can be set up" ) might not apply as there is a distinction made between things that increase the range of spells and things that allow you to measure the range from a different location.

TL;DR: Can you cast an Endless spell through a spell portal?

I am hoping that all made sense.

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You cannot cast an Endless Spell through a Spell Portal as doing so would require changing the caster location.  

 

The part you quote covers it clearly. You cannot increase the casting range nor can you use an ability or spell (such as the Endless Spell Portals) to change where you measure the caster location from. The Endless Spells basically operate exactly as they are written on their warscroll for casting without any deviation from that rule. 

They are their own kind of spells and operate differently to regular normal magic. This is clearly what GW intends but didn't quite write in their formal rules so it is a fairly big change.

 

That said it has shifted Endless portals from an almost must have to a viable choice in line with other choices. Predatory Endless Spells can still be moved through Portals so there's still viable tactics there. 

 

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47 minutes ago, Overread said:

That said it has shifted Endless portals from an almost must have to a viable choice in line with other choices. Predatory Endless Spells can still be moved through Portals so there's still viable tactics there. 

 

Cool, wanted to make sure I don't start using them incorrectly.

So by that reckoning, I can still cast the spell portal with a necro and then use Arkhan to cast suffocating grave tide. When the Gravetide moves upon set-up, it can finish its move within 6" of the portal, sending it through to be set-up 6" from that portal?

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16 hours ago, lolwut said:

Can someone explain the ideal use case for purple sun? I have playtested it in a few games and found it to be horrible.

Sneakily neglect to glue it to it's base and have it "accidentally" roll down a hill on a realm of battle board at just the right moment into a unit of infantry, profusely apologising while your opponent is forced to reglue dozens of arms and shields, putting them off their game. 

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16 hours ago, lolwut said:

Can someone explain the ideal use case for purple sun? I have playtested it in a few games and found it to be horrible.

I view it as a horde killer.  Roll a dice for each model in units passed over or within 1".  So based on averages, a unit of 30 models will have 5 slain outright.  You're going to need to do that a couple of times to justify the points.

It's very much dependant upon who you're facing though.  Your ideal situation is going to be somebody with 160 models with a movement of 4", against somebody that's highly manoeuvrable with small numbers of models you could find it doesn't perform that well.

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17 hours ago, lolwut said:

Can someone explain the ideal use case for purple sun? I have playtested it in a few games and found it to be horrible.

Lots of super-tough and hard to kill units on the other side. Preferably all clustered together. Hit a unit of 30 Liberators with it and maybe clip another couple of units and it will get work done. 

It is only worth its cost if you can get value out of the fact that it bypasses all saves and almost all post-save rolls. It does seem a little situational to me but if your local meta is full of super-tough armies then I think it has a place.

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On 8/3/2018 at 6:35 PM, tokek said:

Lots of super-tough and hard to kill units on the other side. Preferably all clustered together. Hit a unit of 30 Liberators with it and maybe clip another couple of units and it will get work done. 

It is only worth its cost if you can get value out of the fact that it bypasses all saves and almost all post-save rolls. It does seem a little situational to me but if your local meta is full of super-tough armies then I think it has a place.

The targets don't have to be hard to kill for it to be worthwhile, although that's often an incidental occurrence for it's preferred targets. The Purple Sun essentially deletes 1/6 of the points of the units it affects, so works best against clusters worth a lot of points (and super tough stuff tends to be expensive).

For example, take three units of Dracothian guards in pairs, spread out, versus all of them in a single unit. They're equally tough but the latter is clearly a better target. Take an amount of, say, Grots equivalent in points to the Dracothians, in maximum sized units clustered together and the kill yield is the same even though the Grots are far less 'tough'.

That said, I think the ideal use is still as part of the Battleplan in Malign Sorcery ?

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It's just been my experience that the buff / debuff spells are better than the predatory ones.  Also, they occupy physical space on the board, making it difficult for your opponent to maneuver, and they can't freely move them. Yes, it costs a dispel action, but unless you're facing Tzeentch that is precious casting. 

The shackles are very good, the balewind has always been good, the cogs are flat out amazing, and the spellportal is good if your wizards can't ride the vortex. 

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I saw many battle reports and read reviews about the endless spells. I am still not sure if I should buy the full box of just few of them.  I play most of the time Seraphon, Legion of Nagash and Nighthaunt. Do you have suggestions about spells that can be usefull? What about the 3 Nighthaunt spells? They are worth it?

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I' see it as a toolbox purchase that gives you choices that's a viable purchase if you're running more than one army and more than one army list. Big expensive spells and cheap fillers are all varied in what they bring. It likely is cheaper to get it all in one than in bits. 

 

I'd sy get what you want specifically if you were only building one or two army lists that you were not thinking on changing much if at all.

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