Let's talk about Endless Spells

[Skabnoze]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Oops sry I misread your posting  you are right ^^

this whole inability to read and instead using false interpretations made me furios. Sorry again.

I get what you are saying.  My response above was mainly just me making a nerdy math joke.

But to be fair, I have read this a few times and I am honestly unsure of which way this is meant to work.  I can see both sides of this argument but I find the wording to be ambiguous enough for both sides of the argument.  I don't care which way this works in the end.  I can deal with either interpretation, but I think GW needs to clean this up.  And the obvious reason for that is the amount of arguing going on.  I hope they put this debate to bed and we can go argue about something else.

[Aginor]

I thought a bit about removing a spell by moving it off the table's edge:

If you want to put the Geminids debuff on more units (or even stack them?!) then you could hit a unit that is near the table edge twice. Summon the geminids, move them over the unit and during that move let them fall over the table edge. They are not on the table anymore so another wizard can summon them again and do the same.

That's also a thing you could do with the Gnashing Jaws as they have a relatively good move stat (12") and that way you prevent the enemy from using them against you.

 

Edit: Also a funny thing about the Geminids: you only have to kick one of them over the edge, that automatically dispels the other one.

[RantingBob]

I actually asked a Geminids question a page ago which was basically:

Is the Everblaze Comet as good as it seems?
In a Sequitor/Evocator based SCE list, I'm currently thinking of using Cogs, should that be Geminids, Snackles, Cogs, or some combination?

I didn't even think about double Geminids.  That's tasty.

[rokapoke]

46 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

It is clear

Clear to you is not the same as clear. If the rule was clear, there wouldn't be a discussion about it. I look forward to an FAQ that will either prove me right or wrong -- I only have my own interpretation to work off of, since I have no knowledge of what the rules writers intended. I imagine you have the exact same constraints.

[Overread]

The pendulum rule is clear, the miss interpretations are mostly based upon the lore of the model and its description rather than the actual model itself. If it were called the scythe chances are no one would be raising it as an issue. It's really down to if GW want to change the wording through an errata so that it can move in both directions (back and forth) and not just one direction. 

 

@Aginor yes in theory you can do that with any Endless Spell. Casting an Endless Predatory spell and having it move off the table on the turn it appears would let you recast it. It would also let you have more direct control over the spell. Of course this means you have to keep casting it to keep it in the game. It's a valid tactic as is bringing them down right in the middle of the enemy so that even when your opponent has control they can't push it anywhere good (or offensive against you). 

Remembering, of course, that each wizard may only cast one endless spell (of any type) per turn. So recasting in the same turn would require you to have several mages and remembering that each cast attempt can fail and that each cast attempt can also be countered by the enemy wizards too. So in practice you might find it challenging to get one endless spell off in a turn where you want it too, let alone repeat cast the same one several times. 

 

That line of thinking actually opens up planning your Endless casting well. Checking dispel ranges and also considering using a smoke-screen casting. Ergo if you've two mages to the enemies one you could cast the endless spell with a mage in a position that isn't fantastic (but looks good) so that the enemy dispells that attempt; only to let you put it down where you do want it with your second mage. Another would be to threaten an offensive spell with one mage so that you can help guarantee casting a defensive one with your other caster.

 

[sorokyl]

Where is the rule that predatory endless spells can move off the table? 

[Richelieu]

2 hours ago, Aginor said:

I thought a bit about removing a spell by moving it off the table's edge:

If you want to put the Geminids debuff on more units (or even stack them?!) then you could hit a unit that is near the table edge twice. Summon the geminids, move them over the unit and during that move let them fall over the table edge. They are not on the table anymore so another wizard can summon them again and do the same.

That's also a thing you could do with the Gnashing Jaws as they have a relatively good move stat (12") and that way you prevent the enemy from using them against you.

 

Edit: Also a funny thing about the Geminids: you only have to kick one of them over the edge, that automatically dispels the other one.

You can only cast a spell once per turn.  Endless spells do not override this restriction.

[Skabnoze]

2 hours ago, RantingBob said:

  Snackles...

That’s tasty.

Where do I find these delicious treats?

[RantingBob]

Blame Miniwargaming. They called then Soul Share Snackles. And it stuck. 

[JackStreicher]

7 hours ago, rokapoke said:

Clear to you is not the same as clear. If the rule was clear, there wouldn't be a discussion about it. I look forward to an FAQ that will either prove me right or wrong -- I only have my own interpretation to work off of, since I have no knowledge of what the rules writers intended. I imagine you have the exact same constraints.

I haven‘t heard a single argument concerning the rule text.

 

all the other arguments were „but a real Pendulum ...“ or „I think it is...“

sorry to point that out but what you want doesn’t Matter, the rule text - the hard facts that is what matters. 

 

As mentioned before:

the rnglish language clearly defines the word „direction“. And the Model has a front and a back side. Now give me a viable ARGUMENT why the hell moving backwards is the same DIRECTION as forwards. Show me that the Model is a mirrored one without any front. (Even if it hadn‘t had a front, the moment you place it the side the summoning player picks is the front)

these will be my last words on the matter since I am sick of teaching people how to read. And as you might tell the utter incapability of separating facts from „mememe but a real one does that“ and „but it would make sense considering other predatory spells“ makes me furious.

the RULES TEXT matters not what you think would be right or what you want.

[RuneBrush]

+++MOD HAT+++

Probably best to let the Pendulum discussion drop until GW have FAQ'd this* currently the conversation is just going back and forth and we can find arguments to justify both interpretations to the rules.

Also can we please be less confrontational in our responses - I'm looking at you @JackStreicher amongst others

* I'm guessing you've e-mailed them on AoSFAQ@gwplc.com

[AaronWilson]

In regards to casting a endless spell, having it move off & casting it again that can't be done, as you can't can't said endless spell again in the same magic phase.

Agree with Runebrush, at this point it's a "We need a FAQ" debate. On the plus side, it's a gorgeous model. 

[ppetford]

It would work if the spell was already on the board though, right? At the start of the battle round you move the geminids over a unit and off the board. Then on your turn you cast the spell and move it over the same unit again?

[Overread]

8 hours ago, sorokyl said:

Where is the rule that predatory endless spells can move off the table? 

Page 53 of Malign Sorcery in the middle block of text 4th paragraph down. 

Page 262 of the main rule book in the middle block again, this time last paragraph.

 

 

Also what are people using to keep their Warscrolls in order for endless spells? Are there any "deck protector" style sleeves to protect them or a case to hold them? (I'm aware that in the UK at least, the GW Store Birthday events are having a case  to put warscroll cards into)

[Aginor]

7 hours ago, Richelieu said:

You can only cast a spell once per turn.  Endless spells do not override this restriction.

Damn you are right. Forgot that.

 

Edit: good point by @ppetford

[AaronWilson]

33 minutes ago, ppetford said:

It would work if the spell was already on the board though, right? At the start of the battle round you move the geminids over a unit and off the board. Then on your turn you cast the spell and move it over the same unit again?

This is true, but if there is only one endless spell on the table and you're taking first, they can move it. I guess in the corner case scenario you can both move a endless spell off the board & over a unit & it will be your hero phase next this would work

[ppetford]

It’s extremely situational, worth keeping in the back of your mind though as it may one day catch someone off guard

[robotnik_taco]

So just confirming with the umbra spellportal, from what the general concensus has been thus far, barring an faq, you cannot use a spellportal as the point of origin for other endless spells, but you can send them through, but this doesn't count as a 'set up' for the sake of getting a free move because it's shenanigans.  

Sorry if this derailed  the previous posts, I have a tournament coming up and want to know before I commit to a list.

[Aginor]

35 minutes ago, robotnik_taco said:

So just confirming with the umbra spellportal, from what the general concensus has been thus far, barring an faq, you cannot use a spellportal as the point of origin for other endless spells, but you can send them through, but this doesn't count as a 'set up' for the sake of getting a free move because it's shenanigans.  

Sorry if this derailed  the previous posts, I have a tournament coming up and want to know before I commit to a list.

That's my interpretation as well.

[ppetford]

Why can you not use the spell portals to measure where to place an endless spell? I don’t see where this is written in the rules?

[AaronWilson]

Yeah, Spell portal says you can measure the range from portal, endless spells says must be placed within 18", and you measure that range from the portal? 

[Nico]

I don’t see any basis for not being able to measure the casting range of an Endless Spell from the distant Umbral Spell Portal.

[Nico]

Quote

currently  the conversation is just going back and forth

Nice pun regarding the Pendulum.

[Overread]

If a wizard successfully casts a spell while they are within 1 inch of an Umbral Spell Portal model, the range and visibility of the spell can be measured from the other Umbral Spellportal model from this Endless Spell. 

 

So as Endless Spells are cast the same as regular spells and count as a spell I'd say its perfectly fine to be able to cast an Endless spell from the other end of a spell portal. I even have a recollection that someone did this during the 24hour livestream event by GW. It would seem the ideal use of the portals to allow you to extend the casting/visual range of a wizard. Of course what goes one way can go the other and another caster on the other side can do the very same; or a predatory Endless spell can be sent back through the portals. 

[jackmcmahon]

7 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

+++MOD HAT+++

Probably best to let the Pendulum discussion drop until GW have FAQ'd this* currently the conversation is just going back and forth and we can find arguments to justify both interpretations to the rules.

Also can we please be less confrontational in our responses - I'm looking at you @JackStreicher amongst others

* I'm guessing you've e-mailed them on AoSFAQ@gwplc.com

Gw left it intentionally ambiguous so the arguments would go back and forth...LIKE A PENDULUM!  Sick practical joke GW.  I tip my hat to you.