Let's talk about Endless Spells

[Drofnum]

Quote

That makes sense mathematically but not necessarily linguistically. Reading the rules for the new Shyish Reaper spell makes it more clear imo since the reaper says to pivot it then move in that direction.

 

My group plays it as it can only move one way.  The difference in wording from the other predatory spells makes its seem as though thats the intent.

[Skabnoze]

I don't think they are auto-include either.  I will strongly consider them for a number of lists using those destruction spells I mentioned.  But I will also leave them behind for other lists..  For example, I don't think a Spiderfang list will use the portals much - and those lists have multiple shaman on arachnaroks (who are 2-spell casters).  They simply don't have the type of spells to really make use of spell portals, and they are also casters that you generally try to get into the front lines of melee rather than the guys that will stand back and make use of a portal.

Also, I would say it is too early to freak out and call for bans.  The idea that there should be no possible counter-play for someone spamming buff heroes is silly.  There should be a way for an opponent to try to snipe those guys out.  Even if he has a tough time getting rid of the portal he can still try to dispel the spells coming through it. 

It should also be a bit difficult for someone to snipe his stuff out turn 1.  The far portal has to be summoned completely within 18" of the caster and you have to be within 1" of a portal to cast through it.  Even if you have spell range extenders it is going to be difficult to pop out a spell portal in a critical place in the middle of enemy deployment for a turn-1 alpha strike.  He can also consider spreading the heroes around to make it tougher to target them all.  A spell portal in a list built around dumping a lot of spells out of it is probably going to be a tough battle for a list like that - but every list has some uphill battles at times.

[AaronWilson]

For me, the top 3 endless spells I will be looking at Spell Portals, Balewind & Geminids.

[I_usually_just_lurk]

Can you stack two instances of the Geminids? Say I owned two sets of the Geminid  models. I cast it in turn 1, plop it on the table, do damage, debuff. Opponent fails to dispel it. I cast it again in turn 2. Can I have four spell models that each move 8’’ and do D3 to all units they move over?

And would the debuffs stack? The rules are worded as thus: “After the Light Geminid has moved, ...subtract 1 from hit rolls for each unit that has any models it passed across until the end of the battle round’.

The # of attacks debuff has a floor of 1, but guaranteeing that the enemy’s blob has only one attack per model, and has -2 to hit rolls, is pretty nasty. The cost to you remains the same (40 pts — excluding dollars).

[AaronWilson]

So in matched play you can only have one instance of the same endless spell in play at one time. So if you both bring Geminids for example, A - you can't cast it again if it's in play. B - if your oppenent has already cast them, you will have to dispell them and then cast your own.

In open and narrative play, it says as long as you have the models available you can hit multiple instances of any endless spell in play. 

[Overread]

Aaron where in the rules does it say that - I recall reading it but can't seem to find the reference to that now

 

Page 262 of Big Rule book "Endless Spell Models" suggests that if you've got enough models for it you can field more than one endless spell of the same name.

Page 53 of Maligan also states the same page of rules

[Kurrilino]

Pg. 310 Picking your Army. Only one spell of their kind for your army

[Overread]

@Kurrilino thanks for that! Seems like a silly oversight that GW didn't put that info in the Endless Spell pages! Esp as the two pages I reference (which would be the natural place to check the rules for Endless spells) both make specific mention of how you can use as many endless spells as you have models for.   Page 86  in the Maligan book sort of suggests it with the min-max but that can easily relate to just the "unit" count rather than the army limit.

 

That said it only says that a player can only use the same endless spell only once. Therefore both players can use the same spell at the same time, its just that neither one can use the same spell themselves twice. * 

 

 

*I do find it amusing how the 310 page reference though does make specific mention that you couldn't use two Balewind Votex when that's is the example the Endless Spell pages both reference using two of. 

[Mr. White]

Do these spells cost points?

I understand they aren't core rules, but if I show up without Endless Spells, and my opponent has some...how does that work? Do we both use his? He gets them, I don't? Am I at a severe handicap?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Mr. White said:

Do these spells cost points?

I understand they aren't core rules, but if I show up without Endless Spells, and my opponent has some...how does that work? Do we both use his? He gets them, I don't? Am I at a severe handicap?

They cost points. Points are listed in the GHB and Malign Sorcery book. And on Warscrolls Builder.

[Mr. White]

8 minutes ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

They cost points. Points are listed in the GHB and Malign Sorcery book. And on Warscrolls Builder.

Don't have the new GHB or MS yet. Cheers!

[Circus of Paint]

20 hours ago, Mr. White said:

Do these spells cost points?

I understand they aren't core rules, but if I show up without Endless Spells, and my opponent has some...how does that work? Do we both use his? He gets them, I don't? Am I at a severe handicap?

Presuming your opponent paid the points to use whichever Endless Spells they are using, yes they can.

Part of the Endless Spells rules explain how the player going second in a round gets first pick on activating an existing Endless Spell on the board, so you don't have to have Endless Spells yourself to interact with them! It just means you can't attempt to cast any yourself!

[Circus of Paint]

On 7/2/2018 at 7:45 PM, Antonio Rodrigues said:

Well, in Math the direction is basically the "angle" of the movement, like a vector... The magnitude is how much it "travels", measured by it's maximum distance, so it can be back or forward, depending of a positive or negative magnitude... Make sense?

so you set the "direction" and then the magnitude of how much it travels, back or forward up to 8"...

Hehehehe, difficult to exlain that in english... not my native language...

Cheers

AJ

Correct, it can't change direction once set up.

*edit* I've changed my mind on how I interpreted the ruling.

[Overread]

20 hours ago, Mr. White said:

Do these spells cost points?

I understand they aren't core rules, but if I show up without Endless Spells, and my opponent has some...how does that work? Do we both use his? He gets them, I don't? Am I at a severe handicap?

Malign Sorcery is an expansion comprised of 3 parts. 

Endless Spells ; Realm Spells; Realm Artifacts (weapons and relics)

Therefore you agree with your opponent(s) before the match as to which, if any, of those parts you are going to use for the game. So if you don't have them you're perfectly in your right to say that you don't want them in a game. Endless Spells are rising to be quite popular in general and might well become  a standard auto-include for many (esp as GW is also pushing out faction specific Endless Spells). The Realm Spells and Artifcats are more tied to if you're bringing the realm wars aspect into the game. 

[daedalus81]

I intend to make pallisade work.

Throw out a must dispel high cast value endless and let them spend their dispels on that, which allows the "bad" spells to survive more.

[grungolah]

I played 2 games with cogs.   Fun stuff.   My opponents did not bring wizards,  and cogs is not predatory,  so I just got to mess around.   In the first game,  I had to abandon the cogs,  leaving the battlefield in speed up mode (though if we read carefully,  it may have reverted to normal in future turns.   I had lost by too many victory points to play those turns out.    

 

In the second game,  I used the slow down mode and realm of light magic to self heal a mostly dead GUO back to full strength.   We ran out of real time before Slaanesh got to summon everything back and start over.  

 

These spells may not be auto-include, but they change the game.

[Mr. White]

So, how are endless spells ultimately packaged? Is the MS set a collection of 'generic' spells that most factions can use, but there will later be faction specific endless spells as well a la the new SCE and Nighthaunt sets of three?

[AaronWilson]

Each battletome will have it's own unique endless spells, those from Malign Sorcery are available to everyone. 

[Dannathar]

I'm not one to complain, but my khorne army gets hooped by some of these spells. I'll call out Everblaze comet for example. If I don't dispel it at cast, it just smashes me for the whole game or Dominates an area. I have no way to get rid of it after cast as I can't move it off the table and don't have a wizard option in my army. Don't get me wrong my Sylvaneth loves this addition to the game. But will Khorne get any kind of answer to this. In the lore he hates magic, It doesn't say he is gimped to it. 

[Marsh]

17 hours ago, Dannathar said:

I'm not one to complain, but my khorne army gets hooped by some of these spells. I'll call out Everblaze comet for example. If I don't dispel it at cast, it just smashes me for the whole game or Dominates an area. I have no way to get rid of it after cast as I can't move it off the table and don't have a wizard option in my army. Don't get me wrong my Sylvaneth loves this addition to the game. But will Khorne get any kind of answer to this. In the lore he hates magic, It doesn't say he is gimped to it. 

Khorne probably will get an answer in time but for the time being is pretty screwed.

An allied caster might help and can cast the cogs which do actually help khorne by helping those bloodletters get that turn 1 charge.

The only other thing to do with the predatory spells is try/ hope to go second and move them first

[grungolah]

On 7/9/2018 at 10:06 AM, Dannathar said:

I'm not one to complain, but my khorne army gets hooped by some of these spells. I'll call out Everblaze comet for example. If I don't dispel it at cast, it just smashes me for the whole game or Dominates an area. I have no way to get rid of it after cast as I can't move it off the table and don't have a wizard option in my army. Don't get me wrong my Sylvaneth loves this addition to the game. But will Khorne get any kind of answer to this. In the lore he hates magic, It doesn't say he is gimped to it. 

As I read the rules (and used them last week), the "players" (not "wizards") take turns controlling the predatory spells, starting with the player going second. 

1) If you go second, you get to move the first predatory spell. 

2) Players paying points for predatory spells *want* to go second.

3) Conclusion: Khorne, never casting spells, will benefit by being given the first turn, even when they lose initiative rolls.  

Silver linings, and all that.

[Skabnoze]

On 7/9/2018 at 6:49 AM, Mr. White said:

So, how are endless spells ultimately packaged? Is the MS set a collection of 'generic' spells that most factions can use, but there will later be faction specific endless spells as well a la the new SCE and Nighthaunt sets of three?

Yes, this seems to be the current plan by GW.  We will have to see if they continue to create new Endless Spells for each new battletome release, but I expect that is the current plan.

[Attackmack]

On 7/9/2018 at 7:06 PM, Dannathar said:

I'm not one to complain, but my khorne army gets hooped by some of these spells. I'll call out Everblaze comet for example. If I don't dispel it at cast, it just smashes me for the whole game or Dominates an area. I have no way to get rid of it after cast as I can't move it off the table and don't have a wizard option in my army. Don't get me wrong my Sylvaneth loves this addition to the game. But will Khorne get any kind of answer to this. In the lore he hates magic, It doesn't say he is gimped to it. 

Since players alternate moving predatory endless spells at the beginning of each battleround (starting with the player who is to go second in that round) there is always a chance you will get to move that spell. If you move it into your opponents units it will hurt them, you can literally turn your opponents spells against themselves!

Also, PESs CAN be moved across the table edge which dispels them immediately.

p.262 in the core rulebook for reference!

 

edit:

Can I just say though, I LOVE the idea of a rampaging spell tumbling around on its own tearing up the area, convincing everyone on both sides that the best course of action is just to leave it alone until it calms down!

Very....Discworld-ish, absolutely something that could happen at Unseen University  

 

[bolderiz101]

i have a qustion for you guys if i pay lets say 40 pts for a bale wind and it is unbound on cast do i lose my 40 pts? or i can attempt to cast it later?

[Attackmack]

5 hours ago, bolderiz101 said:

i have a qustion for you guys if i pay lets say 40 pts for a bale wind and it is unbound on cast do i lose my 40 pts? or i can attempt to cast it later?

You can cast it endless spells how many times you want but you can only ever have one of each active on the table at any one time.

So if it is dispelled it becomes available to be cast by you again!