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ClockworkGeo91

Lore Query - Why do Stormcasts have low bravery?

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I personally like to think that failing battleshock for SCE doesn't mean that they run away scared tail between their legs but rather that they falter a bit and suffer extra casualties because of that. It's same with death that skellies don't run, they merely crumble to dust. As for lowish bravery 6, I guess that's there for simply gameplay reasons (giving the opponent that small possibility to cause extra casualties through battleshock since SCE can be a handful to deal sometimes).

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3 minutes ago, angrycontra said:

I personally like to think that failing battleshock for SCE doesn't mean that they run away scared tail between their legs but rather that they falter a bit and suffer extra casualties because of that. It's same with death that skellies don't run, they merely crumble to dust. As for lowish bravery 6, I guess that's there for simply gameplay reasons (giving the opponent that small possibility to cause extra casualties through battleshock since SCE can be a handful to deal sometimes).

Yeah I have always assumed that it was for gameplay reasons, rather than anything elese because SCE already have decent stats across the board.

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Perhaps  think of it as a 'fall back' mechanism instead? Rather than viewing it as running off, perhaps it's more of a strategic thing... Which in game play translates to them not being solid at absolutely everything!

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Also it's worth remembering that Stormcast can die and they don't enjoy it.  Moreover one of the recurring fears that Stormcast characters in the novels have is the flaw in the reforging process and how it affects them and their friends.

I can see them wanting to avoid death and reforging and 'breaking' (or tactically retreating if you prefer) when under extreme duress.

In fact, in the Realmgate Wars books, there are instances of Stormcast commiting suicide to escape the soul crushing magics of Nurgle corrupted Brayherds. They marched into the swamp and drowned themselves.

?

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36 minutes ago, Kamose said:

Also it's worth remembering that Stormcast can die and they don't enjoy it.  Moreover one of the recurring fears that Stormcast characters in the novels have is the flaw in the reforging process and how it affects them and their friends.

I can see them wanting to avoid death and reforging and 'breaking' (or tactically retreating if you prefer) when under extreme duress.

In fact, in the Realmgate Wars books, there are instances of Stormcast commiting suicide to escape the soul crushing magics of Nurgle corrupted Brayherds. They marched into the swamp and drowned themselves.

?

Knew someone would be along to give a really good lore response! That makes a lot of sense game wise too. 

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There is no lore reason.    I believe it goes back to the stormcast being in the original starter box, and to have their bravery too high would have meant that new players to AoS using stormcast would very rarely see battleshock occur, plus make it too one sided against the khorne half of it. 

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They should have, it like Chord said, being the first warscroll syndrome is the reason.

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If you're mortal, you die and your soul goes to Shyish intact to be with your loved ones...or if you worship chaos then it goes to your chosen god. If you're stormcast, your soul gets broken down and reforged, losing something along the way. Stormcasts have a lot to fear in death, more than mortals imo.

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I mean it was the same (well slightly in the opposite direction) with 40k before they finally made Leadership a more important stat.

 

Back in 7th and before, an imperial guard infantry squad sergeant had the same LD as a space marine. In the fluff, they should have been leagues apart.

 

Edited by kenshin620
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It's hard to justify in the Lore.  Just like it's hard to justify how a Liberator and an Ironbreaker have little, other than the 1 wound, to separate them functionally in the game even though ostensibly only the finest and most heroic of Warden Kings would ever have the moxie to be selected by Sigmar personally to be a rank and file Liberator.  It's just not granular enough to account for those details in the game..

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7 hours ago, chord said:

There is no lore reason.    I believe it goes back to the stormcast being in the original starter box, and to have their bravery too high would have meant that new players to AoS using stormcast would very rarely see battleshock occur, plus make it too one sided against the khorne half of it. 

I mean that's good balance sense but the lore worked for it too back then as those early stories featured Stormcasts fearful of the reforging, completely inexperienced with facing chaos(their last sighting of them was witnessing their families being slaughtered afterall) and Stormcasts panicking during an ambush and causing friendly fire.

In essence all Stormcast are is militia given superstrength and put in shiny plate armor. Some have experience as leaders and things like pitfighters but others are just doctors, engineers or even bakers who spent their last moments defying chaos. Sigmar was recruiting for heroic willpower more than anything but that has shown to be not enough at times against the nightmares they have to face.

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Just now, Baron Klatz said:

I mean that's good balance sense but the lore worked for it too back then as those early stories featured Stormcasts fearful of the reforging, completely inexperienced with facing chaos(their last sighting of them was witnessing their families being slaughtered afterall) and Stormcasts panicking during an ambush and causing friendly fire.

In essence all Stormcast are is militia given superstrength and put in shiny plate armor. Some have experience as leaders and things like pitfighters but others are just doctors, engineers or even bakers who spent their last moments defying chaos. Sigmar was recruiting for heroic willpower more than anything but that has shown to be not enough at times against the nightmares they have to face.

I do not recall any of the early novels having the stormcast turn tail and run.     In warstorm they started to see a few of their companions get reforged which gave them some concern (later on in the realmgate wars it grew) but none ran away.   Remember no stormcast was ever reforged till after the Gates Of Azyr.  

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True and I'm pretty sure they never have but as had been said it's likely more that they're falling back, panicking and getting themselves killed in combat by losing their discipline or can even put it down to them purposely falling on the enemy's blade if they know a worst fate is instore that reforging won't save them from.

I'm just pointing out Stormcast aren't emotionless supersoldiers. They're crusading knights given a new chance at life.

Edited by Baron Klatz

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11 hours ago, ClockworkGeo91 said:

As above, shouldn't the immortal demigods have a large pool of bravery?

I’m pretty sure that they fall back to Azyr all the time. Blue lightning flashes and all... ;) 

They are “effectively immortal” but they are still alive and living and subject to fear and uncertainty... only the totally insane ... the Daemons and the dead are truly “fearless” ... if you look at the warscrolls you can see that the heroes have higher bravery than the “rank and file” units for SCE.

SCE typically start around a 6 and go up from there. 

Their bravery is notably higher than most other units.

Khorne Bloodbound Mortals are an excellent example. Bloodbound are typically around a 5-6 for standard troops, and only hit 8-10 for the gorechosen and Daemons.

Most normal freeguild have a bravery of 5 to 6. (That being about normal “human level bravery.) Skaven, for example have a bravery in the 4-5 range... and Moonclan grots are at a whopping 4 for rank and file.

Comparatively speaking ... they’re as brave as elite veterans of battle ... and that’s for their Artillery teams and rank and file. 

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1 hour ago, amysrevenge said:

It's hard to justify in the Lore.  Just like it's hard to justify how a Liberator and an Ironbreaker have little, other than the 1 wound, to separate them functionally in the game even though ostensibly only the finest and most heroic of Warden Kings would ever have the moxie to be selected by Sigmar personally to be a rank and file Liberator.  It's just not granular enough to account for those details in the game..

I think the game is granular enough, but will make SC way too elite. SC are a dream team of reforged heroes ? then give them all a hero profile... Primaris at 40k went in a good direction. Liberator should have at least 3 wounds fluff wise...

Edited by christophe

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13 hours ago, ClockworkGeo91 said:

As above, shouldn't the immortal demigods have a large pool of bravery?

I think it's easy to over play the "immortal demigod" angle. They certainly seem that way to a typical mortal in the Realms and they definitely are "Superhuman"!

But never forget, you can't be superhuman without first being human, with all the frailty and weakness that brings. 

Their stats in the game are definitely superhuman.  Compared to a Freeguild Guard model, they hit, wound, and save better, have better Bravery and more Wounds. 

I would not call them imortal demigods though. Morathi is an immortal demigod. The Mortarchs are immortal demigods. Archaon and the Glottkin are immortal demigods. Maybe the Celestant Prime? Not really Phillip Smackyhammer, the Liberator.

Edited by Kamose
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I don't know about anyone else, but I've always viewed Bravery as a simple term for a unit's leadership abilities in the heat of battle. As someone alluded to above, although in the rules it's simplified to 'the models run away', I like to think it's a little bit more complicated lore-wise. For example, if a Battleshock check is made on a unit of Arrowboyz that just got shot to bits that turn, the models you lose are definitely models that have run away. If you have a unit of Phoenix Guard in a desperate fight to defend an objective, in my mind those guys aren't running away. A failed Battleshock test that results in models being removed is representative of a breakdown in communication and leadership in the heat of battle, some of the warriors being isolated and overwhelmed by the enemy. 

The same can be true of Stormcast. Despite their seemingly heroic nature, it still takes leadership and discipline to stay alive in battle. A failed Battleshock test is a momentary lack of that discipline. Perhaps one or two of them made a foolhardy move to defend their comrades that cost them their lives, or perhaps the fight got so savage that others were lost. Looking at it this way took the sting out of some casualties in my narrative games. 

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Gameplay, its the same reason a handgunner has the same to wound as a prosecutor. In the lore a ball of lead is nowhere near as powerful as a sigmarite energy hammer but we've got to bear in mind that we're not playing the lore. If we were it'd be like the narrative balance 40k game where 2 space marines are worth 1000 points

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1 hour ago, christophe said:

I think the game is granular enough, but will make SC way too elite. SC are a dream team of reforged heroes ? then give them all a hero profile... Primaris at 40k went in a good direction. Liberator should have at least 3 wounds fluff wise...

Nah, nothing that grand. Perhaps their elite leaders but for the average Liberator and rank-and-file Stormcast they're nothing more than Chaos Knights of Order by virtue of being heavily armored (armor of which is made by the damned/divine) humans empowered by their gods.

Just check out a Liberator's and Chaos Warrior's warscrolls, they have identical stats and nearly similar weapon abilities.

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Battleshock is a mechanic to show that a unit is taking an action whether running away or staying too long in a bad situation that more of their numbers die. It does not indicate how brave a unit actually is, simply the name of the stat is slightly misleading from my point of view. The previous term leadership might make more sense, though they fully rebranded it with aos transition.

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