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MrZakalwe

Removal of compendiums

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7 minutes ago, Overread said:

GW has to think financially - if they don't their doors close. 

Old models that have old sculpts that have not been replaced can't be kept around forever,  they have to be retired to make way for new models in the production line. If GW still has the masters and the moulds then offering limited window print runs lets them serve the market that wants those models without having it harm their primary production setup; nor leave GW warehousing larger numbers of old models produced on the production run that just don't sell in large volumes (ad-hoc casting is costly too as it interrupts the normal production flow). 

It also makes sense for new payers and old ones returning. If all the armies are fully represented and there are no models without rules or rules without models it creates a fair and level playing field for each updated army. It also means that new players are not left feeling left out because they weren't fans yesterday and thus never bought old models. 

 

Many of these models might return in the future. We already have a new high-elf dragon and dark elf dragon so the old models are purely being cast up for those who want the old design not the new one. Meanwhile things lke the twin elves on a woodelf dragon could well return in the future - we already got a new Queen of the Woods in her fantastic woodland form standing atop a mighty beetle (the old one was a very static pose of her with butterfly wings in thick white metal and a staff - good model but nothing like her new one)

Assuming you were responding to me I was making no moral value judgement about GW's business strategy, merely pointing out that it is just that and not some sort of gift to players.

The real issue is that the factions losing units aren't getting anything to replace them. No one would be complaining about the Twilight Sisters on Dragon being axed if it was to make way for Wanderers/Wood elves to get an awesome new model, but that isn't the case and that leads people to people to feel like they're being punished for not playing the "right" faction.

The other issue is uncertainty, for example I still have no idea whether it's worth making some Ellyrian Reavers or not.

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Just now, Orsino said:

Assuming you were responding to me I was making no moral value judgement about GW's business strategy, merely pointing out that it is just that and not some sort of gift to players.

The real issue is that the factions losing units aren't getting anything to replace them. No one would be complaining about the Twilight Sisters on Dragon being axed if it was to make way for Wanderers/Wood elves to get an awesome new model, but that isn't the case and that leads people to people to feel like they're being punished for not playing the "right" faction.

The other issue is uncertainty, for example I still have no idea whether it's worth making some Ellyrian Reavers or not.

Aye I and I can fully agree with that line of thinking - indeed I worry too about the future of Sigmar. I know GW likes to play it close to the chest with regard to future releases, not just for their onw marketing hype but to prevent 3rd parties jumping the gun on them and delivering to market models before GW can get them out.

That said I REALLY hope they can be pressured into giving us some idea of the future of the Sigmar Range. Specifically with regard to the Order factions. I think most of the others are fine as there are not too many subfactions in the other Grand Alliances and we already know that Chaos is getting lots of updates for the 4 gods. But for Order there are a lot of big questions marks over factions. 

 

For myself Shadowblades have two models; one of which is a duel kit shared with Daughters of Khaine; the other is a finecast sculpt of a single hero. I've no idea if GW will keep Shadowblades as a small force; flesh them outto a full inquisition faction or retire them. I'd really love to know - even if the update is years off. I hope some TGA members get to the Warhammer FEST coming up this year and can bother/plague/pester/bribe/torture (take the comfy chairs and fluffy cushions!) some info out of the GW staff on this one. 

 

The way I see it Sigmar needs this info to help it out. 40K only has the Sisters of Silence to worry about (and honestly I was surprised they were not rolled into Custodes); Sigmar has lots. GW has taken the time to give these minor factions backgrounds but we've no idea what they will actually do with them. 

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I get the scraping of a faction that consists of 2 models. But something like high elfs is a huge faction, popular too, at least from how many people owned the actual models. But who knows, maybe it is just a local thing, here every second ex WFB player has a high elf or wanderer army .

I also agree with Orsino that the removal of models or even model ranges are understandable, and that GW lives out of selling models, I don't think all the high elf players would mind geting new updated AoS models.  Ogor players would probably love new models too.

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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

They are still able to be used, and not in some strange, hard to figure out way. They are 100% good in Narrative and Open. Plus, there are still points for them, just not updates planned to those points, which means really you can even still do Matched with them.

Also, nobody is forcing anybody to do a darn thing.

Before I get any "fanboy" or "shill" comments, I'll point out that I am often quite critical of GW (even in this very forum) and that Tomb Kings are my favorite hobby gaming thing ever for any game, but I understand and can be objective.

I didn't forget about the existence of narrative and open play, but most people don't plan armies or buy models they can only use in narrative/open play, that would be cutting themselves out of the majority of games. 

It's not just a question of whether you feel you can still use the old compendium points in matched play because AoS requires at least two players. Do I want to invest time and money in an army that only some opponents will be happy to play against? Do I want to have to have that negotiation every time I play a new person?

It might work for you and your friends but I'm talking about broad effects on the shape of the game. A lot of people won't want to do that.

And I deliberately used "encouraged/forced" so you could pick the verb you preferred. Strange that you picked the one you disagreed with. But the point is about perception, some people will perceive that they have no choice but to buy new models, whether you agree with their POV or not isn't relevant because it's the perception that, right or wrong, drives sales.

Edited by Orsino

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4 hours ago, Orsino said:

Do I want to have to have that negotiation every time I play a new person?

What's the negotiation?

It's nice that you are willing to give others options, really, it is. The thing is, Compendium armies have official rules and official points. They just do.

This is not adding if you can play with, for instance, Tyler's TK book (which really people should accept cuz it's neat). This is official GW stuff.

And I called out forced because regardless of why you included it, it's factually inaccurate.

 

Edited by Sleboda

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13 hours ago, Orsino said:

I didn't forget about the existence of narrative and open play, but most people don't plan armies or buy models they can only use in narrative/open play, that would be cutting themselves out of the majority of games. 

Well for them it's easy, because the compendium models are not sold anymore outside the special offers and second hand markets. 

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13 hours ago, Sleboda said:

What's the negotiation?

It's nice that you are willing to give others options, really, it is. The thing is, Compendium armies have official rules and official points. They just do.

This is not adding if you can play with, for instance, Tyler's TK book (which really people should accept cuz it's neat). This is official GW stuff.

And I called out forced because regardless of why you included it, it's factually inaccurate.

 

The compendiums are being phased out, and you can declare that it just counts and your opponent's opinion doesn't matter but that's not going to make you someone who is very pleasant to play against. If you want to use what many people would say is a non-legal unit in matched play then of course there needs to be some discussion and negotiation.

And again, the point is people's perceptions and how that shapes their buying behaviour, whether you or I believe these perceptions to be correct isn't really relevant.

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Perhaps they are being phased out. Maybe. But even if they are, at present they are still completely legal GW rules.

Honest question - What makes anyone think they are not legal?

I'm not saying my the opinions of my opponents don't matter. I'm just struggling to understand where that opinion is coming from and what supports it.

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8 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Perhaps they are being phased out. Maybe. But even if they are, at present they are still completely legal GW rules.

Honest question - What makes anyone think they are not legal?

I'm not saying my the opinions of my opponents don't matter. I'm just struggling to understand where that opinion is coming from and what supports it.

Got to say I agree with this. Where does it say compendium models aren't legal? As long as they have a points value and a matched play profile theres no issue using them. Im a wood elf player and still make use of the rules for Wardancers, Waywatchers, Hunting Hounds and even the Avatar. My understanding is that when they get the "legends" treatment is when they don't become legal for matched play anymore.

8 hours ago, Sleboda said:

 

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On 8/10/2018 at 11:23 PM, Sleboda said:

They are still able to be used, and not in some strange, hard to figure out way. They are 100% good in Narrative and Open. Plus, there are still points for them, just not updates planned to those points, which means really you can even still do Matched with them.

I don't know any hardcore tournament players, and yet have never ever witnessed a "no points" game of AoS since GHB1 dropped. Not even one.

The closest i have seen is kinda open, but points just for ease and saving time (i.e. no other restrictions).

Of course open/narrative players are out there, but, then again, so are Epic 40k players or DBMM players.

Few/no players = Few/no games.

And as for Legends, three months in and we have, what, one army? Unless you love Dark Elf mirror matches, it's looking kinda DOA.

Edited by Kyriakin

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Can we change the title of this thread please author/moderators - it is click bait. Can we call it: 'How many more years can we expect the compendiums to be available?'

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14 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Perhaps they are being phased out. Maybe. But even if they are, at present they are still completely legal GW rules.

Honest question - What makes anyone think they are not legal?

I'm not saying my the opinions of my opponents don't matter. I'm just struggling to understand where that opinion is coming from and what supports it.

We seem to have our wires crossed, I'm only saying the compendium units are illegal after they've been phased out, although I'm sure there are people who take issue with them generally. 

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8 hours ago, Orsino said:

We seem to have our wires crossed, I'm only saying the compendium units are illegal after they've been phased out, although I'm sure there are people who take issue with them generally. 

That seriously sounds pretty aggressive, given that a Warscroll is not available in a Matched Play scenario only if it doesn’t have points.

Amusingly enough, there are more Warscroll Battalions that lost their Matched play status in the most recent Stormcast Eternals Battletome update than we saw Compendium Units loose their Matched play status going into the 2018 GHB and AoS v2.0.

And anything that doesn’t have Matched Play status is still entirely legal for Narrative and Open Play.

And as a side note, if you’re playing a “Path to Glory” campaign it is (typically) entirely without points. You choose or roll for units and rewards on a table.

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On 8/10/2018 at 5:10 PM, Orsino said:

Can you be a bit clearer? What does "needlessly negative" mean? It's a fantastically vague and entirely subjective phrase and it hardly seems fair to ask people to guess whether you personally will consider their opinions to be needless or needful before they express them.

We keep this intentionally vague as it allows the mods to apply a bit of flexibility and common sense when people post things.  In this case generally one of the mods will step in when there are a number of "the sky is falling" type posts, however there isn't a hard set of rules and we try and take a hands off approach at every opportunity.  Normally when a mod post has been made it'll be either to steer things on a more positive note, or because we've had to hide a number of posts that we don't feel are appropriate.

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30 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Ouch.  I hope the banning policy is not as subjective!  

Rather than completely derail the topic, I'm going to defer to the guidelines that were drawn up around the time the new edition landed.  They can say it much more eloquently than I can xD

 

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Hi all,

Apologies if this is raking over old coals, but I've been out of the hobby for a few months and am just catching up on the GHB18 drop...

As I understand it, compendium units are no longer supported in matched play as they have no points in the latest book. Is this correct?

 

I only ask as on my 'to do' list was modelling up some Bret Pegasus knight conversions to use in a mixed order army. I only have a limited amount of hobby time and so if this is not going to be an efficient use of my time, I'd rather shift my attention to something I'll actually be able to put on the table more than once in a blue moon. As far as I can tell there isn't really a war scroll I could use for these guys which is still supported either (unless there has been new stuff I have missed)

Ditto for Empire Knights? There must be something 'valid' I can use these as? Some of the elf cavalry perhaps?

 

Cheers all

 

p.s. Mods, I hope this is not unduly negative! Just trying to find my way (efficiently) through a new world realm

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They can still be used with the points in the compendium. But if GW release some Made to Order models they go from compendium to Warhammer Legends and can be used only in Open and Narrative.

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1 hour ago, hwd48 said:

As I understand it, compendium units are no longer supported in matched play as they have no points in the latest book. Is this correct?

Incorrect.

The points for Compendium Units are in the Compendium at the back of the pdf document.

Until those documents are redone you can use the points in them just fine in Matched Play.

Pegasus Knights are in the 2017 Bretonnia Compendium

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-bretonnia-en.pdf

Empire Knights can be used as “Knights of Order, it’s listed as the substitute Warscroll in the back of the Compendium

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Compendiums/warhammer-aos-the-empire-en.pdf

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