Removal of compendiums

[Jamopower]

12 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

 

What I would not do is proxy. It's confusing and takes a piece of the essence of your army out or twists it.

 

Wouldn't consider playing high elf spearmen as the shardspears (or whatever they are currently) proxying. Even the rules are almost identical and the keywords don't have much meaning in this case either.

Proxying is playing unconverted Stormcast Liberators as stand ins for Blightkings or Orcs as Chaos warriors, i.e. totallys tand in models just to test them out on the battlefield.

[mikethefish]

5 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

your pain. There are a lot of hateful people who are far too gleeful at the thought of older models being removed from the current game. It's perplexing, but I've learned over the years that some folks are just mean, or at the very least self-centered and uncaring.

 

I'll try and speak to this a little.

It's less perplexing when you contrast that feeling to all the hatred and bile that former WH Fantasy players have spewed out against AoS - the game and the players.

Played GW for a long time, but I am a newcomer to AoS.  I have been shocked, and a little dismayed at the attitudes I have come across - not on this site (which has been largely positive - hence the reason I am here) but on social media, and pretty much every other AoS news site or forum out there.  Real-life attitudes as well, by outspoken players in my community.

So yeah, there is a small part of me that wishes the old armies would simply be done away with, without having this wierd half-existence, where they are kind of in the game, but kind of not...  Part of me (a small part) wishes that GW would just delete all that old business, and let AoS move forward with it's own brand-new concepts, without having to deal with the shadows of games past.

I get that this is an emotional reaction, and it doesn't make SENSE (certainly there are lots of cool WHFantasy out there).  But in my defense, the behavior of many AoS/Fantasy community as a whole, have sort of colored my attitude a bit.  Usually I feel pretty gracious and welcoming, but at other times it's easy to fall back into a "F*** 'em" sort of mood

[stato]

Well before this thread strays fully into WFB vs AoS mud slinging match ill just say this;

MrZakalwe your models look great, very unique conversions. Im doing a small Swifthawks force at the moment and youve inspired me to find some round shields for a few key models. I dont think youd have any problem using them with a selection of different warscrolls or just staying with what you intended them to be. Hope GHB2018 does you some favours, ill be hoping along with you for somewhere to put all my old Bretonnian knights (currently thinking Order Draconis, hope they get some good points)

[mikethefish]

Hey I am not trying to sling mud - nor do I want to derail anything.  Folks just were somewhat confused about where the attitude is coming from.  I'm perfectly happy to leave it at that

[Ollie Grimwood]

@MrZakalwe

looking at those photos I’d say you’re perfectly placed to have them count as the similar Warscrolls in the various Aelf factions. I’m a big fan of the round Shields and hooded heads, they really work. 

[chord]

3 hours ago, EMMachine said:

How about using other Warscrolls for them?

Spearmen - > Dreadspears (are Order Battleline) / Eternal Guard

Archers -> Gladeguard (are Order Battleline)

Silverhelms -> Dragon Blades

And the next thing to the Seahelm could be a Dragon Noble or one of the Heroes of Wanderers.

The Boltthrower is a little more problematic in this case but perhaps the new Bolt Thrower Warscroll the Stormcast Eternals get?

Everything is Order, so an Orderlist ist possible even if some synergies doesn't work because of multiple factions.

I think is probably the best solution.  

[MrZakalwe]

8 minutes ago, stato said:

Well before this thread strays fully into WFB vs AoS mud slinging match ill just say this;

MrZakalwe your models look great, very unique conversions. Im doing a small Swifthawks force at the moment and youve inspired me to find some round shields for a few key models. I dont think youd have any problem using them with a selection of different warscrolls or just staying with what you intended them to be. Hope GHB2018 does you some favours, ill be hoping along with you for somewhere to put all my old Bretonnian knights (currently thinking Order Draconis, hope they get some good points)

Thanks! I'm genuinely thinking of writing a Highborn battletome for store use- I've already had to throw together some improved warscrolls for a narrative campaign starting next week so I'll see how those work and playtest from there. I don't play in tournaments anyway so should make no odds (mixed order with highborn core is never going to leave bottom table). 

My worry is that when I next move area I'll move somewhere with a worse group and I'll be stuck.

I'd like to see a warscroll update for Dragonblades to give them some rend on the charge but I suppose making them cheaper would work too

5 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

ooking at those photos I’d say you’re perfectly placed to have them count as the similar Warscrolls in the various Aelf factions. I’m a big fan of the round Shields and hooded heads, they really work. 

 

Sadly the shields are from historical Greeks so that bars them from a GW store. Still haven't figured out what emblem to put on the shields as I think they really need one. Not looking forward to applying decals to 71 (and counting) shields!

[robinlvalentine]

42 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

 

I'll try and speak to this a little.

It's less perplexing when you contrast that feeling to all the hatred and bile that former WH Fantasy players have spewed out against AoS - the game and the players.

Played GW for a long time, but I am a newcomer to AoS.  I have been shocked, and a little dismayed at the attitudes I have come across - not on this site (which has been largely positive - hence the reason I am here) but on social media, and pretty much every other AoS news site or forum out there.  Real-life attitudes as well, by outspoken players in my community.

So yeah, there is a small part of me that wishes the old armies would simply be done away with, without having this wierd half-existence, where they are kind of in the game, but kind of not...  Part of me (a small part) wishes that GW would just delete all that old business, and let AoS move forward with it's own brand-new concepts, without having to deal with the shadows of games past.

I get that this is an emotional reaction, and it doesn't make SENSE (certainly there are lots of cool WHFantasy out there).  But in my defense, the behavior of many AoS/Fantasy community as a whole, have sort of colored my attitude a bit.  Usually I feel pretty gracious and welcoming, but at other times it's easy to fall back into a "F*** 'em" sort of mood

Yeah... obviously in this case, the models are only a few years old, so it's completely fair to feel let down. But there are cases all over the place of people ranting and raving because GW's support isn't to their liking for models they bought literally decades ago for a completely different game... it does colour discussions about this stuff for me. But apologies to @MrZakalwe if I came across as unsympathetic! 

[MrZakalwe]

 

4 minutes ago, robinlvalentine said:

Yeah... obviously in this case, the models are only a few years old, so it's completely fair to feel let down.

 

The really weird one if all High Elf Compendium units vanish is that the Seawarden will be unsupported despite being for sale right now on the GW website. 

[The Golem]

27 minutes ago, MrZakalwe said:

The really weird one if all High Elf Compendium units vanish is that the Seawarden will be unsupported despite being for sale right now on the GW website. 

Actually the Seawarden mini can be used in the Swifthawk Agents faction as a Skywarden (on the flying cutter).

[MrZakalwe]

 

16 minutes ago, The Golem said:

Actually the Seawarden mini can be used in the Swifthawk Agents faction as a Skywarden (on the flying cutter).

 

That's a Skywarden - Seawarden is the foot version that it includes complete with scenic rock to place a foot upon. 

He even has his own picture on the Games Workshop store page for the Skycutter box. 

 

Edit: although for a bonus mistake the skywarden warscroll linked from that store page is the KO one

[Skabnoze]

6 hours ago, MrZakalwe said:

Honestly if it does play out like that I'll be a bit disappointed with how the AoS team has handled the discontinued units when compared to how stellar the 40k team have been with indexs recently - 40k are happily supporting my ancient lead Imperial Guard Rough Riders from many years back (to the point that it inspired me to convert up a bunch more from imperial guard and freeguild outriders which while costly was totally worth it for the end result) while AoS may be dropping support for two and a half year old plastics. 

Just wait a bit and I expect that some of the Index only units will eventually phase out of 40k.  They have done this before.  Models go away from armies in both Fantasy and 40k with each edition.  Sometimes they come back in a later edition or book release for an army and sometimes they stay gone.  I have a number of models that technically don't have rules and have to be used as some sort of proxy.

Units that GW does not make a model for anymore, and units that do not make the jump in rules from an Index to an official codex for that faction are very high candidates to simply be phased out over time.  I would not at all be surprised if once all of the Index armies have a full book that the Indexes are removed as options for matched play entirely.  At that point those models stuck only in the Index will be phased out of matched play unless your opponent agrees to let you use them.

[Brightstar]

On 6/8/2018 at 1:25 PM, mikethefish said:

 

I'll try and speak to this a little.

It's less perplexing when you contrast that feeling to all the hatred and bile that former WH Fantasy players have spewed out against AoS - the game and the players.

Played GW for a long time, but I am a newcomer to AoS.  I have been shocked, and a little dismayed at the attitudes I have come across - not on this site (which has been largely positive - hence the reason I am here) but on social media, and pretty much every other AoS news site or forum out there.  Real-life attitudes as well, by outspoken players in my community.

So yeah, there is a small part of me that wishes the old armies would simply be done away with, without having this wierd half-existence, where they are kind of in the game, but kind of not...  Part of me (a small part) wishes that GW would just delete all that old business, and let AoS move forward with it's own brand-new concepts, without having to deal with the shadows of games past.

I get that this is an emotional reaction, and it doesn't make SENSE (certainly there are lots of cool WHFantasy out there).  But in my defense, the behavior of many AoS/Fantasy community as a whole, have sort of colored my attitude a bit.  Usually I feel pretty gracious and welcoming, but at other times it's easy to fall back into a "F*** 'em" sort of mood

I am surprised by how much of the old world GW has kept.  I originally thought we were looking at a whole new world, new narrative, 95% new models, etc, but we've gotten some weird, in between limbo.  I think it took off more then GW expected.  

I don't think GW will phase out all of the compendiums that fast.  I think they will be in GHB2018, just maybe not all the profiles.   Mostly, I think the miniatures GW did not have up for sale during AOS 1 may be phased out.  For example, the Green Knight.  His profile existed in AOS 1, but there was no model for him for a full edition. So phasing him out in AOS 2 would be okay.   If the kit is still up for sale though, I bet it will have rules. 

I think being cruel to fans - and owners - of the old Warhammer models being phased is extremely over handed and short sighted.  I didn't play Warhammer.   The system was just not appealing to me, but I always loved the models.  When AOS dropped, I bought tons and tons of the old kits.  I personally like the aesthetic for a lot of the old warhammer stuff, just most of it is in terrible need of an update - looking at you chaos warriors.  So not everyone who doesn't want to see the old warhammer stuff phased out are not all old warhammer players.   And I'd be really upset if say, Iron breakers, dryads, plague monks, blood letters, etc were suddenly unplayable in this edition when they were available to buy and use in the previous one.  I don't think I would be the only one either.  Not everyone who owns old models used to play old warhammer.    

[Greyshadow]

I certainly get no pleasure from seeing any kits become unavailable (or unsupported). But I have to pinch myself sometimes just how much is still available after so long. Lego used to discontinue pretty much all of their kits after only a few years. I don't know what the oldest GW kit is that is still on sale but the Chaos Warriors I am having a blast painting right now are nearly 15 years old.

I don't think anyone at GW takes pleasure discontinuing models but our desire for shiny new things and the cost it takes behind the scenes to keep things on sale means that from time to time it is inevitable. I am planning a campaign at the moment that will feature the Sons of the Breton and the Crimson Monarchy. I for one do my best to see the old stuff on the table but I do so without any ill will towards GW.

[Skabnoze]

On 6/8/2018 at 11:19 AM, Brightstar said:

 On the net though, I usually figure the vast majority of these people are paid by privateer press, mantic, or whoever to continuously pick at GW just to drive away sales.  I don't know how often I see:  AOS s****, GW killed warhammer, try (insert game system here) instead.  Drives me nuts!    

Come on, this is the internet.  You don’t need to recruit people to complain about things.  Those companies have similar complainers on their forums about much of the same issues like edition changes, unbalanced releases, errata, etc.

[Brightstar]

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

Come on, this is the internet.  You don’t need to recruit people to complain about things.  Those companies have similar complainers on their forums about much of the same issues like edition changes, unbalanced releases, errata, etc.

And on and on it goes... ;)!  

It was a joke...mostly.  

[Rev]

I just wanted to ask you. Do we know anything about Legends release schedule? I was hoping they will update profiles quicker, but so far it is still just DE. Is anything else coming soon? What do you think is their strategy? Are they goimg to be releasing those compendia together with corresponding new faction wave, as it was in the case of DE? Or rsther they will update on regular basis?

[MrZakalwe]

27 minutes ago, Rev said:

I just wanted to ask you. Do we know anything about Legends release schedule? I was hoping they will update profiles quicker, but so far it is still just DE. Is anything else coming soon? What do you think is their strategy? Are they goimg to be releasing those compendia together with corresponding new faction wave, as it was in the case of DE? Or rsther they will update on regular basis?

 

We don't know but I'm hoping it's as slow as possible at this point (as addition to Legends seems to be twinned with removal from Age of Sigmar). 

[Jamopower]

I would also hope them to be released as fast as possible, to be actually able to use them for gaming. Having 1/16? factions available and getting a new one every few months makes the rules more or less pointless.

[MightyMetro]

If the Legend releases are to be paired with Made To Order model drops, i cant see anything happening for for a while yet.   More important to sell the new edition boxes and kits, i would imagine.  Inho Made to Order will happen again when there is a lull in new Aos releases.

[MrZakalwe]

To be honest as Legends is going to be a balance free and points free game you may as well just make your own rules up.

As far as I can tell now the Legends things i just a mechanism to remove this stuff from Age of Sigmar.

[EMMachine]

On 6/8/2018 at 3:16 PM, MrZakalwe said:

The really weird one if all High Elf Compendium units vanish is that the Seawarden will be unsupported despite being for sale right now on the GW website. 

This is actually a weird point. I would say, that this is evolved historically. When the Grand Alliance Book Order came out the faction only had 4 Units

• Chariots
• Shadow Warriors
• Skycutters
• Skywarden

Perhaps GW thought they wouldn't need the seawarden except hat he could be a Hero choice together with the Shadow Warriors (I actually see Shadow Warriors more fitting with Shadowblades but who cares)

Now during 2016 the Spire of Dawn Box (with the models from the old 8. Edition Warhammer Fantasy Box) came out and brought back following units

• High Warden
• Reavers
• Spireguard

So, when reintroducing the Spireguard it would have been a nice thing to reintroduce the Seawarden Warscroll than.

The Spire of Dawn box, wasn't available after a short time, so the app is the only place where to get the Warscrolls.

So this could be the case why we didn't get a Sea Warden. But it was also a mistake that every Prince on foot was mixed in the Warscroll of the Dragon Noble, so other Factions didn't get there own warscroll (like Lion Rangers or in this case the Seawarden)

[Jamopower]

1 hour ago, MrZakalwe said:

To be honest as Legends is going to be a balance free and points free game you may as well just make your own rules up.

As far as I can tell now the Legends things i just a mechanism to remove this stuff from Age of Sigmar.

As said before in this thread, the balancing for those kind of games that the players that use this kind of rules will be very simple. Close to all units have points costs already somewhere and you get quite good ballpark with that. Just some character might need bit of tweaking after few games. 

On the other hand, playing Legends dark elves against non-legends High elves will not be very easy as all of the keyword synergies work so much better for the Legends stuff. It's very different thing to agree on the army composition with your friend than to make out and agree all individual details of each warscroll.

 

Personally, I'm much more interested on Warhammer Legends than for example on Malign Sorcery and I don't think I'm the only one in the world.

[MrZakalwe]

23 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

As said before in this thread, the balancing for those kind of games that the players that use this kind of rules will be very simple. Close to all units have points costs already somewhere and you get quite good ballpark with that. Just some character might need bit of tweaking after few games.

That works for some of them but not as many as you'd think- lots of the warscrolls have been changed pretty heavily for Legends (compare Legends and AoS Executioners and Reaper Boltthrowers, for example).

[Jamopower]

15 minutes ago, MrZakalwe said:

That works for some of them but not as many as you'd think- lots of the warscrolls have been changed pretty heavily for Legends (compare Legends and AoS Executioners and Reaper Boltthrowers, for example).

Of course, but when you apply the same changes for both forces, they even out.  And you can always tweak them a bit after you have had few games. That's why I said ballpark. If you're playing with agreed point values, there shouldn't be any minmaxing around anyways (as then it just doesn't work), so most likely it doesn't matter at all.

There used to be big tournaments with "made up points" before the GHB, so getting it to work in a small gaming group shouldn't be any sort of issue.