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Let's chat Stormcast Eternals

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9 hours ago, Siorra said:

 

Javelin's were better, but as of Saturday they cost the same as the hammers, so now I'm unsure. You'd get the most out of the models by building the unit of 6, that way you can have 2 models with the better weapons (Grandblade or Grandhammer), and could easily run it as 2 units of 3, both primes having the special weapons, or 1 unit as 6.

 

So personally, I would build your 3 from the starter set as Prosecutor's with hammers with 2 of them using special weapons, so you can have 2 max potential units of 3 of 1 unit of 6. Hope that made sense.

Thanks. This helps :)

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Generally speaking, ranged is always going to be better than melee, especially since you can still shoot into/out of combat. Getting 2 damage on the Javelins as well when they're further away makes it no contest in my book. 

MSU Hammer Prosecutors is pretty decent since you can get into melee extremely quickly and they're fairly fight-y, but we have enough melee components and the Javelins are one of the best ranged support options out there for 100 points.

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What about Longstrikes in 3-man units? Are they worth it? They feel a bit too all-egs-in-one-basket at 360 for 6 in the same unit. I wondered if 3 Longstrikes + 3 Hurricanes would be better.

Also, it appears as the Lord Aquilor would be nice for keeping them safe. Or a Protector wall...

PS: Freeguild just got a clone of our Staunch Defender :( come on, don't hand oír goodies like candy!

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NAAAAA! my Vanguard Wing just took an extra 160 point taxe. Can't use it in 1000 point games now.

That beeing said....

On 21/08/2017 at 3:24 AM, Thomas Lyons said:

Auroch,  you are dead on.  I think this will be one of the most scariest competitive lists out there (dead serious).  People just don't know how scary this is.  

The extra 10 members on liberators units took me by surprise. I really like that!

Lets imagine a Vanguard Wing where you want to maximise the numbers of libz and Judz, that is a 1660 point force in one drop, with enouth point left to add that 3rd battleline and a couple of heroes, maybe cut 5 judz to add more room.

After all, you may have the choice to make 600 point of army hitting at one time with +1/2 to hit (lets say 1/2 Celestant) with +1/2 armor( lets say castellan). Awwww sexy!

Still the lack of high rend/Mortal wounds is here but i have great hopes.

All in all : 

30 liberators 520

15 judicators 480

3X3 Prosecutors 300

Vanguard wing 200

1 Celestant 100

1 Castellan 100

1 Castellan/celestant 100

5 judicators 160

1960, points, throw a gryphound and call it a day. This is a 5-6 drop army in a world where monodrops are (almost) dead.

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Seems like our lord and saviour Aetherstrike is still going to be an effective list. Only a 100pt increase on the battalion - everything else seems intact.

I'm not sure where to trim the fat in that list, though. The core is 1620 (assuming 3x Longstrike, 1x Hurricane) which does not leave enough room for a Celestial Hurricanum or 2x support heroes + 2 gryph hounds + protectors. Figuring out how to spend the remaining 380 points will depend on the meta game. 

Relictor seems like an excellent all-around choice, giving you Lightning Storm for more Hit debuffs and Lightning Chariot for mobility.

If we expect a lot of shooting then you'll want a Castellant for Warding Lantern + LOTT and Protectors.

If you expect a lot of deep strike then you can cut a hero or the Protectors for 2x Gryph Hounds and/or more Liberators.

Protectors may not be an absolute necessity since we should see less Kurnoths/Skyfires, and the meta could shift to seeing more melee hordes. In that case you should bump your Liberators up to 10 and use the Castellant to give them a 2+r1 save (with Inspiring Presence they won't be going away any time soon).

Decisions, decisions...

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1 hour ago, kozokus said:

 

I had this list in mind :

Size    Cost    Name
   1      340    Celestant Prime   To catch the support units behind the lines or put a 6" bomb on his army,
   1      100    Lord-Celestant     Consummate Commander to double the ToHit bonus with the other Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Castellant     Lantern of the tempest (to counter Skyfires and shooting armies)
   1        80    Lord-Relictor         Pennant of Sigmaron (to prevent too much losses on the Liberators blob)  and the hit debuff for Bloodletters bomb
        
   1       200    Vanguard wing
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   5       160    Judicators Bow
  30      520    Liberators
        
   5    100    Liberators

I use the vanguards like a lash.

The head is made of the 6 Great hammers, hunting Heroes and the body is made of the regular Liberators, preventing the ennemy fro charging my Heroes.

Edited by Auroch

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59 minutes ago, Auroch said:

I had this list in mind :

Size    Cost    Name
   1      340    Celestant Prime   To catch the support units behind the lines or put a 6" bomb on his army,
   1      100    Lord-Celestant     Consummate Commander to double the ToHit bonus with the other Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Castellant     Lantern of the tempest (to counter Skyfires and shooting armies)
   1        80    Lord-Relictor         Pennant of Sigmaron (to prevent too much losses on the Liberators blob)  and the hit debuff for Bloodletters bomb
        
   1       200    Vanguard wing
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   5       160    Judicators Bow
  30      520    Liberators
        
   5    100    Liberators

I use the vanguards like a lash.

The head is made of the 6 Great hammers, hunting Heroes and the body is made of the regular Liberators, preventing the ennemy fro charging my Heroes.

Firstly, i really think people are going to be crazy dissappointed with 30 libs, second is the +2 to hit really worth giving up staunch defender on liberators? Especially considering anytime you attack heavy cav, heroes, or monsters you get +1 to hit anyway. Even hitting on 2s liberators aren't exactly 'blendy'.

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1 hour ago, Auroch said:

I had this list in mind :

Size    Cost    Name
   1      340    Celestant Prime   To catch the support units behind the lines or put a 6" bomb on his army,
   1      100    Lord-Celestant     Consummate Commander to double the ToHit bonus with the other Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Castellant     Lantern of the tempest (to counter Skyfires and shooting armies)
   1        80    Lord-Relictor         Pennant of Sigmaron (to prevent too much losses on the Liberators blob)  and the hit debuff for Bloodletters bomb
        
   1       200    Vanguard wing
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   5       160    Judicators Bow
  30      520    Liberators
        
   5    100    Liberators

I use the vanguards like a lash.

The head is made of the 6 Great hammers, hunting Heroes and the body is made of the regular Liberators, preventing the ennemy fro charging my Heroes.

The Relictor can't carry the Pennant, as he doesn't have the Totem keyword.

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20 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

Firstly, i really think people are going to be crazy dissappointed with 30 libs, second is the +2 to hit really worth giving up staunch defender on liberators? Especially considering anytime you attack heavy cav, heroes, or monsters you get +1 to hit anyway. Even hitting on 2s liberators aren't exactly 'blendy'.

Unless  liberators are getting extra attacks on 4+ with +2 to hit ;) that is very good and often forgotten.

Sure you get +1 to hit 5+ wounds too.

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My Stormcast Eternals and Khorne armies were set... I'm just dropping the Battalions and I think I'm still good. Will adjust as needed by experience gained on the gaming table. Might drop a unit to keep the battalion in a game to see how it goes. These changes keep the game exciting.

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5 minutes ago, kozokus said:

Unless  liberators are getting extra attacks on 4+ with +2 to hit ;) that is very good and often forgotten.

Sure you get +1 to hit 5+ wounds too.

On a 4+.  From a Lord Relictor they'll be constantly teleporting away from. It's not a bad idea but you're spinning about 800 plates with a list like this.

Edited by BURF1
more stuff

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4 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

From a Lord Relictor they'll be constantly teleporting away from.

Lord relictor's prayer only work on a 3+ and only on a unit which is in 3" range and can only teleport 9" away from the ennemy. Not even close from teleporting from infinite range with no limitation on the placement of the model so you can throw it directly into the face of the ennemy.

Liberators are a disapointement taken by 5

30 liberators that cost you 25 that fly with infinite movement that get extra attacks on 4+ with a 2+ reroll1 save are waaaaay more sympathics. 

Plus, thoses nice heavy hammers won't go away unless you kill 24 of them. yeee!

I concede that they have one big downside, no rend on basic attacks tend to make 2+save ennemies a real problem (that can be dealt otherwise).

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1 hour ago, kozokus said:

30 liberators that cost you 25 that fly with infinite movement that get extra attacks on 4+ with a 2+ reroll1 save are waaaaay more sympathics.

I hardly manage to have both.

I could in my list if I change the Prime for a magician, but I like the Prime.

He is an answer to the heavy armored enemies if you play him in close combat, and he can be devastating if the enemy castle up with his D3 MW on each unit under his 6" blast.

And he looks great.... ;)

 

About the Relictor, I am sorry, I thought He was TOTEM.

If you give him Bless weapons, the damage output of only the 6 granhammers (including the prime) on a 4+ save goes from 15.4 unsaved wounds to 21.2 A 37.5% increase.

On a 2+ it is 7.7 or 10.6 (with the prayer) wounds unsaved.  Not bad for a -1 Rend anyway, specially when you have to go throu 48 PV with a 3+ (or 2+ depends on your list) RR1+ to startminimizing it ;)

Edited by Auroch

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hey bros! looking at SCE as a competitive army for 2018, wondering if there is any good places to start reading/ get an idea on what a competitive army looks like?

 

i can see vaguard wing being discussed alot and i can see why, seems bad ass!

Edited by Josh

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Is 30 libs a thing now? I think people that use then will be disappointed when going up against the likes of other cheaper battleline  

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4 hours ago, Josh said:

hey bros! looking at SCE as a competitive army for 2018, wondering if there is any good places to start reading/ get an idea on what a competitive army looks like?

 

i can see vaguard wing being discussed alot and i can see why, seems bad ass!

No one will know for sure for 2-3 months after the GHB drops. 

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6 hours ago, kozokus said:

Lord relictor's prayer only work on a 3+ and only on a unit which is in 3" range and can only teleport 9" away from the ennemy. Not even close from teleporting from infinite range with no limitation on the placement of the model so you can throw it directly into the face of the ennemy.

Liberators are a disapointement taken by 5

30 liberators that cost you 25 that fly with infinite movement that get extra attacks on 4+ with a 2+ reroll1 save are waaaaay more sympathics. 

Plus, thoses nice heavy hammers won't go away unless you kill 24 of them. yeee!

I concede that they have one big downside, no rend on basic attacks tend to make 2+save ennemies a real problem (that can be dealt otherwise).

I was talking about them teleporting away from bless weapons. Why would you take lightning chariot with this list? 

 I think the list is good, I think it didn't get hit very hard compared to other, I think 30 liberators being discounted 80pts isn't really a relevant change and that taking 30 will be bad. Oh you can keep the hammers? Neat, 6 of them together will do as much damage as 1 fulminator on the charge!

Edited by BURF1
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Deps

54 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

I was talking about them teleporting away from bless weapons. Why would you take lightning chariot with this list? 

 I think the list is good, I think it didn't get hit very hard compared to other, I think 30 liberators being discounted 80pts isn't really a relevant change and that taking 30 will be bad. Oh you can keep the hammers? Neat, 6 of them together will do as much damage as 1 fulminator on the charge!

I agree. Vanguard wing is more about battlefield control and mobility.  If you want tactical incisions hammerstrike or fulminators does the damage for you where you want it.

On another note. 

Seeing the potential rise of hordes or massive regiments. Do you guys think concussors will be more viable? Locking down huge units seems very good. my theory is that concussors will slowly grind away any large unit.

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Deps
I agree. Vanguard wing is more about battlefield control and mobility.  If you want tactical incisions hammerstrike or fulminators does the damage for you where you want it.
On another note. 
Seeing the potential rise of hordes or massive regiments. Do you guys think concussors will be more viable? Locking down huge units seems very good. my theory is that concussors will slowly grind away any large unit.

Hurricane crossbows and decimators for sure


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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2 hours ago, BURF1 said:

I was talking about them teleporting away from bless weapons. Why would you take lightning chariot with this list? 

 I think the list is good, I think it didn't get hit very hard compared to other, I think 30 liberators being discounted 80pts isn't really a relevant change and that taking 30 will be bad. Oh you can keep the hammers? Neat, 6 of them together will do as much damage as 1 fulminator on the charge!

As much as 1 fulminator on the charge. Really ?

Still on a 4+ save unit, a charging Fulminator unit will do 8 wounds, for a 240 points unit : 30 points per wound.

The 6 hammers will do 15.21 for 520 points (I dont count the 24 other Liberators dammages): 33.7 points per wound.

With blessed weapon, they will do 21 for 520 points (I dont count the 24 other Liberators dammages): 24.76 points per wound.

Looks like the 6 hammers hit as hard as 4 Fulminators.

Now, the Hammers have 48 wound with a 2+ RR1 save to kill before being hit (who could also hit, causing 0.9 to 1.22 unsaved wound on a 4+ save each), they can be teleported around the table every turn (no risk on being stuck and see their Damages go from 3 to 1), they don't need to charge (Not stopped by fanatics, they can still have the +1 save from staunch defender), and with the 24 other liberators, you have a quite interresting flexibility to reach your target.

Do this 30 Liberators unit (520 points) look  interresting compared to 4 Fulminator (480 points) ?

I think so.

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1 hour ago, Auroch said:

As much as 1 fulminator on the charge. Really ?

Still on a 4+ save unit, a charging Fulminator unit will do 8 wounds, for a 240 points unit : 30 points per wound.

The 6 hammers will do 15.21 for 520 points (I dont count the 24 other Liberators dammages): 33.7 points per wound.

With blessed weapon, they will do 21 for 520 points (I dont count the 24 other Liberators dammages): 24.76 points per wound.

Looks like the 6 hammers hit as hard as 4 Fulminators.

Now, the Hammers have 48 wound with a 2+ RR1 save to kill before being hit (who could also hit, causing 0.9 to 1.22 unsaved wound on a 4+ save each), they can be teleported around the table every turn (no risk on being stuck and see their Damages go from 3 to 1), they don't need to charge (Not stopped by fanatics, they can still have the +1 save from staunch defender), and with the 24 other liberators, you have a quite interresting flexibility to reach your target.

Do this 30 Liberators unit (520 points) look  interresting compared to 4 Fulminator (480 points) ?

I think so.

Do you forget the mortal wounds galore Fulminators can cause both the turn they charge and when stuck? This would surely swing the balance in favor of the Fulminators.

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Since we talk about charge, I am not sure the Dracoth will be in range to shoot.

 

Anyway, the Lightning Surge would do 5,37 MW for 4 Fulminators, only during your shooting phase.

5 or 6 non granhammer Liberators(out of 24) would be enough to do the same in each combat phase.

Edited by Auroch

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14 hours ago, Auroch said:

I had this list in mind :

Size    Cost    Name
   1      340    Celestant Prime   To catch the support units behind the lines or put a 6" bomb on his army,
   1      100    Lord-Celestant     Consummate Commander to double the ToHit bonus with the other Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Castellant     Lantern of the tempest (to counter Skyfires and shooting armies)
   1        80    Lord-Relictor         Pennant of Sigmaron (to prevent too much losses on the Liberators blob)  and the hit debuff for Bloodletters bomb
        
   1       200    Vanguard wing
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   5       160    Judicators Bow
  30      520    Liberators
        
   5    100    Liberators

I use the vanguards like a lash.

The head is made of the 6 Great hammers, hunting Heroes and the body is made of the regular Liberators, preventing the ennemy fro charging my Heroes.

Unless Im mistaken, the Lord Relictor cant take treasured standards, due to lacking the totem keyword. 

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5 hours ago, Auroch said:

Since we talk about charge, I am not sure the Dracoth will be in range to shoot.

 

Anyway, the Lightning Surge would do 5,37 MW for 4 Fulminators, only during your shooting phase.

5 or 6 non granhammer Liberators(out of 24) would be enough to do the same in each combat phase.

Range on the Fulminator shot is 6", so very well could be in range. 

 

And you're comparing the base cost of each unit while also taking into account the buffs from the Heroes on the Liberators. Fulminators do that damage by themselves. You're talking about a 520 point unit of Libs with +1/+2 to hit, +2 to save, and a Prayer. How much are those costing, and how easy is it to get off everything at the same time/be in range of everything at the same time? 2 Celestants, a Castellant, and a Relictor adds another 380 points to the unit, and are juicy targets for shooting units like Artillery and Skyfires. 

AoS is all about combos for sure, but spending well near 1000 points to make basic Battleline Liberators as good as Fulminators seems like a bit of a waste.

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We are comparing 6 out of 30 Liberators to 4 charging Fulminators.

Liberators need support to be that efficient, true.

But in the other hand, Fulminators may not charge every turn, specially during the enemy's turn... :)

So, when they don't charge, their damage output vs 4+ save (without Lightning Surge which occurs only during our turn) is only 8,9 wounds for a 108 points per wound cost.

Assuming they will charge in each of our turns (most optimistic version), their average damage output (without the Lightning Surge which occurs only during our shooting phase, and since they charge, they may not be in range) would be 12,44 for a cost of 38,6 points per wound.

So, to sum up the maths I did previously, what do we have for points per wound :

6 hammers with 2x +1 to hit and bessed weapons : 25

Charging Fulminators (without Lightlings) : 30

6 hammers with 2x +1 to hit : 34

Average Fulminators (charging every turn) : 39

Not charging Fulminators : 108

 

I don't try to sell the 30 men Liberator unit.

I'd be very happy if some dracoth combo could be as effcicient (I prefere dracoth minis).

We are here just brainstorming about how we could perform the best with our favorite faction.

There is no Liberator vs Fulminators, we are all on the same side, Stormcasts vs the rest of the universe :)

My point in this post is to give real numbers (even if I may be wrong in my maths), to let us have an objective view of the efficiency of each combo we may think about.

Some units can be overrated or underrated in players mind, I just try to give them a "realistic" efficiency score.

After, we have to do our generals job and make the best of it during the battles ;)

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