Let's chat Stormcast Eternals

[Auroch]

1 hour ago, kozokus said:

 

I had this list in mind :

Size    Cost    Name
   1      340    Celestant Prime   To catch the support units behind the lines or put a 6" bomb on his army,
   1      100    Lord-Celestant     Consummate Commander to double the ToHit bonus with the other Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Castellant     Lantern of the tempest (to counter Skyfires and shooting armies)
   1        80    Lord-Relictor         Pennant of Sigmaron (to prevent too much losses on the Liberators blob)  and the hit debuff for Bloodletters bomb
        
   1       200    Vanguard wing
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   5       160    Judicators Bow
  30      520    Liberators
        
   5    100    Liberators

I use the vanguards like a lash.

The head is made of the 6 Great hammers, hunting Heroes and the body is made of the regular Liberators, preventing the ennemy fro charging my Heroes.

[BURF1]

59 minutes ago, Auroch said:

I had this list in mind :

Size    Cost    Name
   1      340    Celestant Prime   To catch the support units behind the lines or put a 6" bomb on his army,
   1      100    Lord-Celestant     Consummate Commander to double the ToHit bonus with the other Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Castellant     Lantern of the tempest (to counter Skyfires and shooting armies)
   1        80    Lord-Relictor         Pennant of Sigmaron (to prevent too much losses on the Liberators blob)  and the hit debuff for Bloodletters bomb
        
   1       200    Vanguard wing
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   5       160    Judicators Bow
  30      520    Liberators
        
   5    100    Liberators

I use the vanguards like a lash.

The head is made of the 6 Great hammers, hunting Heroes and the body is made of the regular Liberators, preventing the ennemy fro charging my Heroes.

Firstly, i really think people are going to be crazy dissappointed with 30 libs, second is the +2 to hit really worth giving up staunch defender on liberators? Especially considering anytime you attack heavy cav, heroes, or monsters you get +1 to hit anyway. Even hitting on 2s liberators aren't exactly 'blendy'.

[DanielFM]

1 hour ago, Auroch said:

I had this list in mind :

Size    Cost    Name
   1      340    Celestant Prime   To catch the support units behind the lines or put a 6" bomb on his army,
   1      100    Lord-Celestant     Consummate Commander to double the ToHit bonus with the other Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Castellant     Lantern of the tempest (to counter Skyfires and shooting armies)
   1        80    Lord-Relictor         Pennant of Sigmaron (to prevent too much losses on the Liberators blob)  and the hit debuff for Bloodletters bomb
        
   1       200    Vanguard wing
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   5       160    Judicators Bow
  30      520    Liberators
        
   5    100    Liberators

I use the vanguards like a lash.

The head is made of the 6 Great hammers, hunting Heroes and the body is made of the regular Liberators, preventing the ennemy fro charging my Heroes.

The Relictor can't carry the Pennant, as he doesn't have the Totem keyword.

[kozokus]

20 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

Firstly, i really think people are going to be crazy dissappointed with 30 libs, second is the +2 to hit really worth giving up staunch defender on liberators? Especially considering anytime you attack heavy cav, heroes, or monsters you get +1 to hit anyway. Even hitting on 2s liberators aren't exactly 'blendy'.

Unless  liberators are getting extra attacks on 4+ with +2 to hit  that is very good and often forgotten.

Sure you get +1 to hit 5+ wounds too.

[Wraith01]

My Stormcast Eternals and Khorne armies were set... I'm just dropping the Battalions and I think I'm still good. Will adjust as needed by experience gained on the gaming table. Might drop a unit to keep the battalion in a game to see how it goes. These changes keep the game exciting.

[BURF1]

5 minutes ago, kozokus said:

Unless  liberators are getting extra attacks on 4+ with +2 to hit  that is very good and often forgotten.

Sure you get +1 to hit 5+ wounds too.

On a 4+.  From a Lord Relictor they'll be constantly teleporting away from. It's not a bad idea but you're spinning about 800 plates with a list like this.

[kozokus]

4 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

From a Lord Relictor they'll be constantly teleporting away from.

Lord relictor's prayer only work on a 3+ and only on a unit which is in 3" range and can only teleport 9" away from the ennemy. Not even close from teleporting from infinite range with no limitation on the placement of the model so you can throw it directly into the face of the ennemy.

Liberators are a disapointement taken by 5

30 liberators that cost you 25 that fly with infinite movement that get extra attacks on 4+ with a 2+ reroll1 save are waaaaay more sympathics. 

Plus, thoses nice heavy hammers won't go away unless you kill 24 of them. yeee!

I concede that they have one big downside, no rend on basic attacks tend to make 2+save ennemies a real problem (that can be dealt otherwise).

[Auroch]

1 hour ago, kozokus said:

30 liberators that cost you 25 that fly with infinite movement that get extra attacks on 4+ with a 2+ reroll1 save are waaaaay more sympathics.

I hardly manage to have both.

I could in my list if I change the Prime for a magician, but I like the Prime.

He is an answer to the heavy armored enemies if you play him in close combat, and he can be devastating if the enemy castle up with his D3 MW on each unit under his 6" blast.

And he looks great....

 

About the Relictor, I am sorry, I thought He was TOTEM.

If you give him Bless weapons, the damage output of only the 6 granhammers (including the prime) on a 4+ save goes from 15.4 unsaved wounds to 21.2 A 37.5% increase.

On a 2+ it is 7.7 or 10.6 (with the prayer) wounds unsaved.  Not bad for a -1 Rend anyway, specially when you have to go throu 48 PV with a 3+ (or 2+ depends on your list) RR1+ to startminimizing it

[Josh]

hey bros! looking at SCE as a competitive army for 2018, wondering if there is any good places to start reading/ get an idea on what a competitive army looks like?

 

i can see vaguard wing being discussed alot and i can see why, seems bad ass!

[Malakithe]

Is 30 libs a thing now? I think people that use then will be disappointed when going up against the likes of other cheaper battleline  

[BURF1]

4 hours ago, Josh said:

hey bros! looking at SCE as a competitive army for 2018, wondering if there is any good places to start reading/ get an idea on what a competitive army looks like?

 

i can see vaguard wing being discussed alot and i can see why, seems bad ass!

No one will know for sure for 2-3 months after the GHB drops. 

[BURF1]

6 hours ago, kozokus said:

Lord relictor's prayer only work on a 3+ and only on a unit which is in 3" range and can only teleport 9" away from the ennemy. Not even close from teleporting from infinite range with no limitation on the placement of the model so you can throw it directly into the face of the ennemy.

Liberators are a disapointement taken by 5

30 liberators that cost you 25 that fly with infinite movement that get extra attacks on 4+ with a 2+ reroll1 save are waaaaay more sympathics. 

Plus, thoses nice heavy hammers won't go away unless you kill 24 of them. yeee!

I concede that they have one big downside, no rend on basic attacks tend to make 2+save ennemies a real problem (that can be dealt otherwise).

I was talking about them teleporting away from bless weapons. Why would you take lightning chariot with this list? 

 I think the list is good, I think it didn't get hit very hard compared to other, I think 30 liberators being discounted 80pts isn't really a relevant change and that taking 30 will be bad. Oh you can keep the hammers? Neat, 6 of them together will do as much damage as 1 fulminator on the charge!

[Thor]

Deps

54 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

I was talking about them teleporting away from bless weapons. Why would you take lightning chariot with this list? 

 I think the list is good, I think it didn't get hit very hard compared to other, I think 30 liberators being discounted 80pts isn't really a relevant change and that taking 30 will be bad. Oh you can keep the hammers? Neat, 6 of them together will do as much damage as 1 fulminator on the charge!

I agree. Vanguard wing is more about battlefield control and mobility.  If you want tactical incisions hammerstrike or fulminators does the damage for you where you want it.

On another note. 

Seeing the potential rise of hordes or massive regiments. Do you guys think concussors will be more viable? Locking down huge units seems very good. my theory is that concussors will slowly grind away any large unit.

[CountryMou3e]

Deps
I agree. Vanguard wing is more about battlefield control and mobility.  If you want tactical incisions hammerstrike or fulminators does the damage for you where you want it.
On another note. 
Seeing the potential rise of hordes or massive regiments. Do you guys think concussors will be more viable? Locking down huge units seems very good. my theory is that concussors will slowly grind away any large unit.

Hurricane crossbows and decimators for sure


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[Auroch]

2 hours ago, BURF1 said:

I was talking about them teleporting away from bless weapons. Why would you take lightning chariot with this list? 

 I think the list is good, I think it didn't get hit very hard compared to other, I think 30 liberators being discounted 80pts isn't really a relevant change and that taking 30 will be bad. Oh you can keep the hammers? Neat, 6 of them together will do as much damage as 1 fulminator on the charge!

As much as 1 fulminator on the charge. Really ?

Still on a 4+ save unit, a charging Fulminator unit will do 8 wounds, for a 240 points unit : 30 points per wound.

The 6 hammers will do 15.21 for 520 points (I dont count the 24 other Liberators dammages): 33.7 points per wound.

With blessed weapon, they will do 21 for 520 points (I dont count the 24 other Liberators dammages): 24.76 points per wound.

Looks like the 6 hammers hit as hard as 4 Fulminators.

Now, the Hammers have 48 wound with a 2+ RR1 save to kill before being hit (who could also hit, causing 0.9 to 1.22 unsaved wound on a 4+ save each), they can be teleported around the table every turn (no risk on being stuck and see their Damages go from 3 to 1), they don't need to charge (Not stopped by fanatics, they can still have the +1 save from staunch defender), and with the 24 other liberators, you have a quite interresting flexibility to reach your target.

Do this 30 Liberators unit (520 points) look  interresting compared to 4 Fulminator (480 points) ?

I think so.

[DanielFM]

1 hour ago, Auroch said:

As much as 1 fulminator on the charge. Really ?

Still on a 4+ save unit, a charging Fulminator unit will do 8 wounds, for a 240 points unit : 30 points per wound.

The 6 hammers will do 15.21 for 520 points (I dont count the 24 other Liberators dammages): 33.7 points per wound.

With blessed weapon, they will do 21 for 520 points (I dont count the 24 other Liberators dammages): 24.76 points per wound.

Looks like the 6 hammers hit as hard as 4 Fulminators.

Now, the Hammers have 48 wound with a 2+ RR1 save to kill before being hit (who could also hit, causing 0.9 to 1.22 unsaved wound on a 4+ save each), they can be teleported around the table every turn (no risk on being stuck and see their Damages go from 3 to 1), they don't need to charge (Not stopped by fanatics, they can still have the +1 save from staunch defender), and with the 24 other liberators, you have a quite interresting flexibility to reach your target.

Do this 30 Liberators unit (520 points) look  interresting compared to 4 Fulminator (480 points) ?

I think so.

Do you forget the mortal wounds galore Fulminators can cause both the turn they charge and when stuck? This would surely swing the balance in favor of the Fulminators.

[Auroch]

Since we talk about charge, I am not sure the Dracoth will be in range to shoot.

 

Anyway, the Lightning Surge would do 5,37 MW for 4 Fulminators, only during your shooting phase.

5 or 6 non granhammer Liberators(out of 24) would be enough to do the same in each combat phase.

[Crazyterran]

14 hours ago, Auroch said:

I had this list in mind :

Size    Cost    Name
   1      340    Celestant Prime   To catch the support units behind the lines or put a 6" bomb on his army,
   1      100    Lord-Celestant     Consummate Commander to double the ToHit bonus with the other Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Celestant
   1      100    Lord-Castellant     Lantern of the tempest (to counter Skyfires and shooting armies)
   1        80    Lord-Relictor         Pennant of Sigmaron (to prevent too much losses on the Liberators blob)  and the hit debuff for Bloodletters bomb
        
   1       200    Vanguard wing
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   3       100    Prosecutors Javelines
   5       160    Judicators Bow
  30      520    Liberators
        
   5    100    Liberators

I use the vanguards like a lash.

The head is made of the 6 Great hammers, hunting Heroes and the body is made of the regular Liberators, preventing the ennemy fro charging my Heroes.

Unless Im mistaken, the Lord Relictor cant take treasured standards, due to lacking the totem keyword. 

[Requizen]

5 hours ago, Auroch said:

Since we talk about charge, I am not sure the Dracoth will be in range to shoot.

 

Anyway, the Lightning Surge would do 5,37 MW for 4 Fulminators, only during your shooting phase.

5 or 6 non granhammer Liberators(out of 24) would be enough to do the same in each combat phase.

Range on the Fulminator shot is 6", so very well could be in range. 

 

And you're comparing the base cost of each unit while also taking into account the buffs from the Heroes on the Liberators. Fulminators do that damage by themselves. You're talking about a 520 point unit of Libs with +1/+2 to hit, +2 to save, and a Prayer. How much are those costing, and how easy is it to get off everything at the same time/be in range of everything at the same time? 2 Celestants, a Castellant, and a Relictor adds another 380 points to the unit, and are juicy targets for shooting units like Artillery and Skyfires. 

AoS is all about combos for sure, but spending well near 1000 points to make basic Battleline Liberators as good as Fulminators seems like a bit of a waste.

[Auroch]

We are comparing 6 out of 30 Liberators to 4 charging Fulminators.

Liberators need support to be that efficient, true.

But in the other hand, Fulminators may not charge every turn, specially during the enemy's turn...

So, when they don't charge, their damage output vs 4+ save (without Lightning Surge which occurs only during our turn) is only 8,9 wounds for a 108 points per wound cost.

Assuming they will charge in each of our turns (most optimistic version), their average damage output (without the Lightning Surge which occurs only during our shooting phase, and since they charge, they may not be in range) would be 12,44 for a cost of 38,6 points per wound.

So, to sum up the maths I did previously, what do we have for points per wound :

6 hammers with 2x +1 to hit and bessed weapons : 25

Charging Fulminators (without Lightlings) : 30

6 hammers with 2x +1 to hit : 34

Average Fulminators (charging every turn) : 39

Not charging Fulminators : 108

 

I don't try to sell the 30 men Liberator unit.

I'd be very happy if some dracoth combo could be as effcicient (I prefere dracoth minis).

We are here just brainstorming about how we could perform the best with our favorite faction.

There is no Liberator vs Fulminators, we are all on the same side, Stormcasts vs the rest of the universe

My point in this post is to give real numbers (even if I may be wrong in my maths), to let us have an objective view of the efficiency of each combo we may think about.

Some units can be overrated or underrated in players mind, I just try to give them a "realistic" efficiency score.

After, we have to do our generals job and make the best of it during the battles

[Nubgan]

I personally just can't imagine trying to manoeuvre 30 Liberators if your board had more than 1 scenery piece per 2x2ft section of board. Fair enough though, you would be able to hold about 3 objectives at once I dare say  

[kozokus]

44 minutes ago, Nubgan said:

I personally just can't imagine trying to manoeuvre 30 Liberators

Unless you field them in a vanguard wing. Then it became pure awesomeness.

[CountryMou3e]

Unless you field them in a vanguard wing. Then it became pure awesomeness.

Short lived though. Pick off the squishy prosecutors and it falls to pieces


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[kozokus]

19 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

Short lived though. Pick off the squishy prosecutors and it falls to pieces

That is the plan but from experience, this is not the cakewalk you can expect.

[CountryMou3e]

Vanguard wing aside. This 30 lib idea , what if you parked a Castellant and vandus close by. Staunch defender, Castellant +1save and +1 attacks for melee weapons. Not as mobile but the potential for a decent sized board control and some really difficult models to shift. You can't really ignore it either.

 

Park a cheap gun line behind it or some deep striking units ... cogs are turning ... but I'm still not sure lol

 

 

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