Let's chat Stormcast Eternals

[Requizen]

So my Stormhost is getting itself to nearly completed (though holidays have messed up the hobby schedule a bit), and I'm looking forward to all the upcoming events. 

Now, I think we all know that the high-table lists are focusing around Skyborne Slayers and Warrior Brotherhood. Which I agree with, and I personally love having an Alpha Strike army (one of the reasons I picked Stormcast in the first place). 

However, I think there's plenty of options to discuss on that front and others. To get started:

1) When playing Skyborne Slayers list, how often do you start models from the Battalion on the table? Since it's a cheaper buy in than Warrior Brotherhood, you'll usually have some units starting on the board (generally things like Prosecutors), do you feel the need to additionally leave some Liberators down?

2) While double Azyros seems optimized for Brotherhood, do you think there are other good options? The Azyros doesn't seem to do much outside of giving out the better drops (which is good), but things like Lord-Celestants (on or off Dracoths) have better damage output, and the Knight-Venator can give you some extra shooting in case you're using your Brotherhood to spread out, as he can go down basically anywhere and support with his shooting. 

3) When using either of those Battalions, what kind of Judicators do you use? I generally find one of each to be good - Crossbows statistically do more damage (and then do way more if they get to stand still), but Bows are more flexible since they have rage and aren't encouraged to stand still.

4) I'm going to be in some 1000 point games coming up. You obviously can't fit either Battalion in there, but most other power builds are out as well. I'm looking at bringing a mostly Dracoth and Ranged list (since I love those models), what have you found to work well in lower point games?

5) What do you find to be the hardest matchups? Sylvaneth seem to be a strong army at the moment, and their shenanigans can be rough to deal with. I think an optimized Death force could be difficult as well, Mournguls are amazing and their save after the save can make our MW output hurt.

[StealthKnightSteg]

Re 2)

I recently used the Warriors Brotherhood with the minimal amount of models per unit (so 5 per paladin and used 2 Retributor units) and reinforced the list with more hero's also considering the 3 places of power scenario.

With the Battalion I used 1 Knight Azyros and Lord-Celestant on foot

Outside the Battalion I grabbed the Knight-Vexillor with the Pennant, Lord Castellant (plus gryphhound) and Knight Venator (mainly to hunt wizards), might replace him for Lord-Veritant. (listed as 1960 points)

Ofcourse in my test game we rolled for the 3 place of power.

I started off with dropping my entire battalion in 1 go where all my Liberators and 1 unit of Judicators(bows) and Knight Azyros went on the table towards the middle and right hand objective. Supported by the Lord Castellant (and gryphhound) and dropped the Venator to oversee the 3rd.

Knight Vex and the Knight Azyros together behind a tower (out of sight)

I still finished deploying first and against a bit of a fluffy skaven list (battalion with 3 plague claws) I opted to go first.

Here is where it gets nasty

1) Knight Vex drops Azyros where you want it -> on a 4+ units get D3 mortal wounds

2) still hero phase, Azyros opens lantern on chaos units in this case another D6 mortal wounds.. this already took out 2 plague claw catapults

3) Movement phase, dropped in 2 Retributor units, Lord Celestant (with Reckless) and judicators with crossbows

killed a plague priest, banner dude, last plague claw catapult and messed up half his unit of 30 Stormvermin

Only thing left was half his Stormvermin and Thanquol and 3 of those mortar weapon teams that already got engaged by my single dropped Prosecutors. (that can also be used later for objective grabbing.

[Requizen]

That's a really interesting way to run it. I tend to disregard the Knight-Vex since he can have problems against other alpha strike lists, but that's a really interesting way to get the Azyros even closer!

[Olincay]

I dont have much experience with the two battalions. But I can offer some imput on the judicators and venator. 

When it comes to the Judicators, personally I prefer the bows, I've found the crossbows to under perfrom consistantly. The 12" reach makes it so that you're nearly constantly moving them to reach targets which then means they don't get thier 3 shots instead of 2. The higher to hit value and no rend make it harder for those shots to go through as well. 

I also have mixed feeling on the Venator, I find his ability pretty hit and miss, it's only once per game and you still have the oppurtunity to miss, not wound or the enemy to make it's save. No doubt when it goes through it's devastating.

With the 20+ games ive used with him I think he's only taken a hero off once? With out his ability he's only 3 shots with the bow and 3 with the bird, keeping in mind the bird doesnt have rend as well. You'd almost be better taking abother unit or Judicators with bows for the extra shots with rend. 

His one saving grace is that he's a hero that can fly, with most heroes for stormcast being slow foot sloggers this can be somewhat useful. 

I'm no pro gamer by any means, but this is just my experience with those two particular units. 

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm curious if any of my more experienced brothers can give me their impressions of the various units, how to use them, and how to build them. Double weapons or hammer and shield on your liberators? Bows or crossbows on your judicators? Stuff like that.

[StealthKnightSteg]

Liberators, defensive : Hammer / Shield it's slightly better if buffed with a to hit and with the Castellants buff it ain't going anywhere soon.

Liberators, offensive : double swords with a to hit buff almost all your hits will go.

Both options with their grandweapon for an extra punch, best on the Prime for that extra attack

[Zen]

What's people's opinion on going 5 + 10 paladins with the warrior Brotherhood, 2 x 100 pts heroes (2x Azyros or 1 x azyros and 1 x celestant) and adding a Celestant-Prime out of formation. Not worth it perhaps? 

I understand that most people don't rate the Prime very high at his cost, but I absolutely love the model and would like to use him even in a competitive setting.

[ElectricPaladin]

Are offensive liberators worth it? My take on the scroll is that liberators don't have the punch to go on the offensive; that job belongs to paladins and prosecutors.

[ElectricPaladin]

Also, how do you like your judicators? 

[Olincay]

1 hour ago, ElectricPaladin said:

Also, how do you like your judicators? 

Units of 5, With bows, shockbolt bow on the prime for the +1 to hit.

[kozokus]

10 hours ago, ElectricPaladin said:

Are offensive liberators worth it? My take on the scroll is that liberators don't have the punch to go on the offensive; that job belongs to paladins and prosecutors.

hello.

To be honest, there is little differences between dual wield and Shield. It is hardly noticeable. Just play a game with dual and note on a papier every Time you Roll a save and you should have rerolled à 1. AND if this reroll IS sucessfull. You won't write à lot of things. 

Liberators can go offensive. No problem with that. But you have what you paid for. They are damn slow. One thing i can Say on the Shield is that things without rend can have a lot of problem with them.

A thing noticeable however os Sword vs hammer. The liberators have a built in +1 to hit which can often stack with the one from the lord celestant. Only the hammer can profit from both.

 

[Olincay]

Out of curiousty, how do people run their Liberators with shields? 

As the warscroll says if ANY of the models have a shield the unit re rolls failed saves of 1. 

So could you just have one Liberator with a shield and the rest with double weapons to get rerolls 1's to hit? 

 

[yarrickson]

1 hour ago, Olincay said:

Out of curiousty, how do people run their Liberators with shields? 

As the warscroll says if ANY of the models have a shield the unit re rolls failed saves of 1. 

So could you just have one Liberator with a shield and the rest with double weapons to get rerolls 1's to hit? 

 

Sadly not as 'units' of liberators must be armed the same. The only exceptions are the allowed number of grand blades or grand hammers. The sigmarite shield rule seems to only be there to avoid awkward questions when your grandblade wielding liberator prime is the last one standing as he wouldn't get the reroll then. 

[kozokus]

I just noticed that Luberators are "REDEEMER" and judicators are "JUSTICARS"......

[Requizen]

On 12/24/2016 at 3:10 PM, ElectricPaladin said:

Are offensive liberators worth it? My take on the scroll is that liberators don't have the punch to go on the offensive; that job belongs to paladins and prosecutors.

Shields are better most of the time. You aren't taking Liberators to kill anything important, any Wounds they do is just a boon. You're taking them to be your wall/chaff unit, and you want them to survive better in that case. Stick a unit of Shields in cover, and 3+ rerolling 1s is 7/9 saves with no rend, which is pretty good.

Double Hammers (and you want Hammers, statistically they're better than Swords with any hit modifier) can be fine, you'll beat most other chaff units, but again, even with the minor reroll they're nothing to write home about. The only weapon in the unit that does damage is the Grand weapon, and you can take that in either unit type. In fact, Shields can help that Grandhammer stay alive a bit longer, so it's a win/win.

On 12/24/2016 at 4:44 PM, ElectricPaladin said:

Also, how do you like your judicators? 

Most people will say Bows, and usually range is more important than hitting power. But, as I said in the OP, range is less of an issue when you use Skyborne or Brotherhood, which allow you to come down in firing range right away. Crossbows shooting twice (so having moved) do equal damage against a 3+ target, and more damage against anything with a 4+ or worse save compared to Bows. They do more damage at all armor ranges when they get to fire three times (having stood still). 

The Shockbolt bow makes more sense than the Thunderbolt Crossbow. The special Xbow autohits hordes, but they usually don't care about MWs since they have bodies. It only hits Monsters or Heroes 1/3 of the time which isn't reliable enough, even though you want to spam MWs on them. The only units it's best against are 5-10 model elite units like Brutes or Paladins, and that's pretty niche. The special Bow has potentially swingy damage and can be fired at a different target than the crossbows if you want.

[Immersturm]

The advantage of the Bows is their range. They can be shooting from turn 1 onwards. For the Crossbows to be shooting from turn 1, they need to arrive witht he Skyborne Slayers on turn 1, which you might not want to do all the time. Thus you are missing potential damage. They are also quite safe against melee retaliation. They just stand back, preferably on some objective, and shoot away. If the Crossbows land and shoot, chances are that they will be charged the next turn or simply shot by units with short a short shooting range and die. The slight difference in damage is too small to justify the potential risk and wasted damage/inconvenient deployment. I think that is the biggest advantage of the Bows.

As for the Thunderbolt Crossbow, I actually prefer it to the Shockbolt Bow. In theory, anyway. Against units of 5 or more, which is the standard size for elite-ish units like Paladins, it does an average of 2 MW, compared to the average of 35/18 (1.944444444) wounds, which can be saved by armour. It also frees the Prime to shoot a regular Crossbow, increasing its damage even further. But all the disadvantages above apply once again.

The verdict is that I really try to like the Crossbows, with and without Skyborne Slayers, but I find it hard to justify it in my play style, especially since I do not go overboard with the Battalions and usually run Dracoths as well.

[Snoe]

If my math is ok then a minimum Warrior brotherhood comes in at about 1500 point. What are your thoughts on the remaining 500 points for a 2k army? Bring in new and different units? The Prime or some dracoths? Or just pump up the Paladins to 10 man units and bigger/more heroes?

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[Immersturm]

If you are going Brohood, then you are going all the way. Either bigger Paladin units for better output or more heroes because otherwise you are bound to lose the Three Places of Power mission. The most prominent choice is more Paladins I believe.

[Snoe]

Celestant Prime, with what do you combine him with? Since he comes down in the movement you can't buff him directly but I assume he benefits from bubble abilities (like Lord-Cel command ability)?
Do you usually send him in to take out vulnerable targets in the back or in to tip the balance of an important battle with high stakes?
I'm not a very competitive gamer myself but got the model for Christmas and would like to see him on the table and do something cool!

....like taking out that damned Stonehorn that I usually face.

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[rokapoke]

@Snoe, in my experience you can either use the Prime to surgically remove any one target, but expect him to die quickly (glass cannon with just 8 wounds, and he attracts LOTS of attention), or you can bring him in to sweep through weak parts of your opponent's army. Generally speaking, you won't have the good fortune for him to do both -- your opponent will focus fire too much for him to stay out long enough to do it all. 

[Requizen]

I agree with rokapoke. 3+ 8W is tough but not invincible (though since he's not a Monster, you can park him in cover for a 2+ which is kind of nice). When you bring him down, expect him to remove a unit as long as you waited til turn 3 at the earliest, as he will drop his comet and then only fails his charge 1/9 times. 

I wouldn't expect him to delete the Stonehorn, though. That halving wounds is no joke. Unless it's already softened up, if you come down on T3 he statistically will do 1 damage from the Comet and then 4 wounds (8 halved) from Ghal Maraz. If you wait he should get more, and he'll do more if you buff him up with the Lord-Cele's +1 to hit, but unless that Frostlord is softened up it'll still be a hard target to remove.

As for what to combine him with, I think it's best to use him alongside Skyborne Slayers or Warrior Brotherhood. Surprise, surprise, I know, but comboing multiple drops together is powerful. I think Skyborne is slightly better here, since he's already pretty expensive and Skyborne has a cheaper buy-in than the Brotherhood, making him a bit easier to fit. 

[arnoldrew]

On 12/24/2016 at 0:10 PM, ElectricPaladin said:

Are offensive liberators worth it? My take on the scroll is that liberators don't have the punch to go on the offensive; that job belongs to paladins and prosecutors.

That's how I do it. They aren't there to do damage (though with Grand weapons they get some through now and then, which is nice), they are there to get buffed with Mystic Shield or the Castellant's Lantern and have a 3+ rerolling 1s save and just never go away.

[Snoe]

We all know Skyborn and Brotherhood are the most competitive battalions but has anyone else used any other?
Either for fun or for effect. I assume most of us look at the long list in the app with available battalions but since you don't know what they do you don't unlock them.

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[Snoe]

I used the Warrior Brotherhood last game I played for the first time. 1500 points, bare minimum units, Rets and Prots, Lord-Celestant and Knight-Azyros.
3-player game Fields of Blood from GH.
I did small drops for 4 turns to react to how the other players played but came in last with the observation that I had no decisive turn where I could get ahead.
How do other people play the "arriving from Azyr" bit? Bring it down big and hard for a strike that leaves the opponent unable to rise or cleverly in well placed strikes in critical places with portions of the force?

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[Olincay]

3 hours ago, Snoe said:

I used the Warrior Brotherhood last game I played for the first time. 1500 points, bare minimum units, Rets and Prots, Lord-Celestant and Knight-Azyros.
3-player game Fields of Blood from GH.
I did small drops for 4 turns to react to how the other players played but came in last with the observation that I had no decisive turn where I could get ahead.
How do other people play the "arriving from Azyr" bit? Bring it down big and hard for a strike that leaves the opponent unable to rise or cleverly in well placed strikes in critical places with portions of the force?

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The few games ive ran with it *minus the Azyros* I've brought it down hard to alpha strike key parts of my opponents army. 

Bringing it down in parts turn by turn may give your opponent the time to deal with your units peacemeal. Escecially if your drop is followed by them double turning you.